1,000 turkeys in Suffolk UK died from bird flu

Originally posted by undercoverchef

I do realise that the experts say it is safe to eat infected meat (that is cooked)

But i value my family a bit more than a £2 packet of Turkey Ham!!!!

So if, its ok with you, i choose to excersise some caution in this case.

Didnt the "experts" also claim that thalidomide was a safe drug to take in the 1960's???

Big difference between the 60's and now, thanks. They also claimed smoking was good for you too.... I would hope that we have come some way in 40 years.

What you need here is common sense and some education about what this is.

Simple cooking of meat for longer than 10 mins at a temp above 90c would be sufficient to denature the proteins in most, if not all, micro-organism's and prevent them from doing their thing. As most people (Isay most, as there are some bloody stupid people out there) will cook their meat for longer and at a much higher temp (200c+), there is bugger all risk associated with eating any Poultry, even if it was infected.

Also, I may be wrong on this mind, but I am pretty sure that the Flu virus would have a hard time infecting you from your gut, should you actually consume a live specimen.

Another thing that we benefit from in this country is good quality control. Should a bird fall ill with flu, as we have seen, the entire batch will be destroyed. Should a bird be found to have flu once it has entered the food chain, any products associated with that batch will be traced and recalled, even though cooking an infected bird will be perfectly safe.

On top of that, the food processing industry does much to remove anything from the product that may cause it too spoil.

So, to sum up, the chances of a Flu virus making it's way to your home in a sample of poultry are seriously limited. Should that happen, the cooking process will eliminate it.

Disinfecting any surface that has touched raw poultry is a must, but that that is no different than normal, I hope anyway...

There is no risk of infection from your food.

The risk of infection comes from the ducks, geese and eventually, the pigeons and sparrows in your garden that roam free. That's what you should concern yourself with, not a pack of Bernard Matthews Turkey Ham.

Even then, there is is still no risk of infection from wild birds, unless you like hugging them for extended periods when they are ill...

Do you?

Big difference between the 60's and now, thanks. They also claimed smoking was good for you too.... I would hope that we have come some way in 40 years.

Yeah and im sure in the 1960's they said the same about the 1920's... so?

As for all the rest of your comments did you not read my other posts?? I did explain to someone else that, after reading up on the subject, the risks are low from feeding ducks in the park, going for walks and eating meat!

I am just stating that for the sake of £2 i would rather take extra caution! Its called a personal choice!!!

No panic, no "run to the hills" just a simple precaution to protect my family.

Paranoid... maybe... but what have i lost? £2?

Hope thats ok with you!

Chill out... Jeebus. We could go on all day hopping back 40 years at a time and all that proves is we advance in our understanding. I don't see why you feel the need to keep using that poor analogy.

I am actually trying to educate you and others who are obviously freaking out over Bird Flu.

Your opening posts in this thread (in fact, it's your thread) sounded very panicky. Panic does no-one any good. Knowing the facts does.

I was trying to help..

Is that ok with you?

[edit on 5/2/07 by stumason]

I was always except someone trying to educate me with open arms... but some of your coments came accross as smug (of course this was just my interpritation and if im wrong i appoligise)

but when you say...

Some people can be so paranoid, it begs belief. God forbid anything catastrophic actually happen to our little planet, all the sheeple panicking will cause more problems than anything else...

If does come across as inflammatory... People are not sheeple... Not everyone has the time to spend hours studying every possible risk to human life. People have life's to lead... When you have a family and you have drop the kids off at school, do the shopping, go to work etc... you don't always have time to sit for hours on end reading about H5N1. To call these people sheeple is insulting.

And when you said...

You threw away some Turkey ham because you were scared? Jeebus...

Again that sounds insulting... like i am some kind of idiot for throwing away some Turkey Ham!

I never once said i was scared... just that i was taking a precaution!

Now if you intention was to just educate, your comment would have been more diplomatic.... But it sounded more like you was baiting for a argument, and i felt obliged to respond. Maybe i simply should have left it at that and not responded... but... im just human and i guess pride got the better of me.

Again i say, if this is just me misinterpreting your comments then i am truly sorry.

I will now withdraw from this particular argument because i do not want to get into a quote vs quote argument over why i threw out some ham.

Granted, I did come into the thread in a bit of a "Oh my god, people are panicking" frame of mind.

My apologies if I offended

My subsequent post's I have tried to calm people and advise them not to pay too much attention to the Media and think for themselves. I did not mean to be smug, but it may have appeared that way

Please do take heed of my advice though, there really is nothing to worry about (at this time). Even if there was, panic does nothing but add to confusion. We'll all be best served dealing with this in a typical British "stiff upper lip" way and remaining level headed and informed.

Thanks for your kind response


Just as an update...

It was just mentioned on the news that Russia has banned all British poultry imports.

Is this a step to far? or are the Russians simply taking, what they see, as a necessary preventative measure?

I would be interested to hear your thoughts on this

Its starting to remind me of the whole "mad cows disease" episode.

The ban only applies to live exports or hatchling eggs. Sensible really. Normal "dead" produce is still viable.

I'm not even sure we export that much to Russia anyway, dead or alive.

I am absolutely astounded at the misinformation put forward in this thread as "fact."

Far too much ignorance to deal with - but here's a quick hit:


BS:

Originally posted by stumason

Firstly, the virus needs a host, or it too dies. I do not know the specifics, but I doubt they will live for long (a day at most) inside of a dead bird.

As you do not know the "specifics," why don't you refrain from sharing your ignorance?

FACT: Bird flu does NOT need a living host - that's why it's so friggin' dangerous. The primary reservoirs appear to be environmental. Flu viruses can live for millenia in ice, over 200 days in lake water, and indefinitely where conditions involve high humidity and low temperature.

Flu Viruses May Be Preserved in Ice for Millennia

Influenza viruses may be preserved in glaciers and Arctic ice for thousands of years and released into the environment when the frozen water is thawed, potentially touching off lethal pandemics, researchers said.

Global warming may speed the release of the microbes, increasing the frequency of outbreaks, according to a study in the December issue of the Journal of Virology. The study is based on tests of water and ice from three lakes in Siberia, where large populations of migratory waterfowl breed before traveling to North America, southern Asia, Europe and Africa.

***

High moisture and low temperatures increase (bird flu) virus survival in manure. ...Virus will be inactivated
once daily temperatures have consistently risen to 90ºF for one week.

The virus can enter the environment by a variety of routes, including feces - and of course, infected carcasses as they decay.

Influenza can also be transmitted by saliva, nasal secretions, feces and blood. Infections either occur through direct contact with these bodily fluids, or by contact with contaminated surfaces.

H5N1 bird flu is a zoonosis - so a variety of birds, animals and insects can "pick up" the virus from environmental reservoirs and then, spread it further in what's called "mechanical transmission."

Scientist warns of bird flu in flies

"A study we are conducting here, for example, has convincingly found that it is possible for flies to spread the bird flu virus," he said.

Wasito said the virus had also been found in flies taken from places that have been declared bird flu free. Only flies taken from locations that have never had a bird flu outbreak were always found H5N1 negative.

"This means that the virus in flies is still inherited in at least the 25th generation, as the research was conducted generally two years after an outbreak," said Wasito, explaining that the flies had a one-month life span.

***

In the wake of the increasing number of bird flu cases in Indonesia, an Indonesian scientist has warned the government not to place too much of the blame for bird flu on poultry as other animals could also carry the virus.

Veterinary pathologist Wasito of Yogyakarta’s Gajah Mada University’s veterinary medicine said other animals such as cats, dogs and even flies could also carry the H5N1 virus.

***

1985: Characterization of virulent and avirulent A/chicken/Pennsylvania/83 influenza A viruses: potential role of defective interfering RNAs in nature.

In April 1983, an influenza virus of low virulence appeared in chickens in Pennsylvania. Subsequently, in October 1983, the virus became virulent and caused high mortality in poultry. The causative agent has been identified as an influenza virus of the H5N2 serotype. ...Chickens infected with the virulent strain shed high concentrations of virus in their feces ...and the virus was isolated from the albumin and yolk of eggs layed just before death. Virus was also isolated from house flies in chicken houses. ...This adaptation may have involved the loss of defective RNAs, as well as mutations, and thus provides a possible model for a role of defective-interfering particles in nature.

***

Detectio n and isolation of highly pathogenic H5N1 avian influenza A viruses from blow flies collected in the vicinity of an infected poultry farm in Kyoto, Japan, 2004.

During the outbreak of highly pathogenic avian influenza that occurred in Tamba Town, Kyoto Prefecture in 2004, a total of 926 flies were collected from six sites within a radius of 2.3 km from the poultry farm. The H5 influenza A virus genes were detected from the intestinal organs, crop, and gut of the two blow fly species, Calliphora nigribarbis and Aldrichina grahami, ...the virus from C. nigribarbis (A/blow fly/Kyoto/93/2004) was characterized as H5N1 subtype influenza A virus and shown to have > 99.9% identities in all three RNA segments to a strain from chickens (A/chicken/Kyoto/3/2004) and crows (A/crows/Kyoto/53/2004) derived during this outbreak period in Kyoto in 2004. Our results suggest it is possible that blow flies could become a mechanical transmitter of H5N1 influenza virus.

***

High moisture and low temperatures increase virus survival in manure. Mechanical transmission by anything that can walk, crawl, or fly from farm to farm can and will occur. Mammals, like rats and mice, insects (including flies) and wild birds, especially waterfowl can transmit avian influenza. AIV can also be found on the outer surfaces and inside of shell eggs. Transfer of eggs is a potential means of AIV transmission. Airborne transmission of virus from farm to farm probably does not occur. The spread of avian influenza between poultry premises almost always follows the movement of people and equipment.

Also FYI - there is a significant body of evidence showing that "bird flu" is transmitted "genetically" in several species.



BS:

Thats because the only people it kills are those that literally sleep with their chickens. To be honest, if those people don't get Bird flu, they probably have some other nasty disease as a result and at the very least fleas. For the western world, the only threat is to livestock and that itself is apparently minimal.

The unadultered hate-mongering ignorance underlying this statement is almost beyond belief.

You are parroting the agricultural industry's disinformation campaign.

FYI - most scientists agree:

"High-pathogenic avian flu that causes death among birds seems to originate from intensive poultry farms."

Also FYI - North America is rife with low-path H5N1 bird flu - and by most accounts, the real danger and pandemic potential lies with low-path H5N1.

Bird flu lite may become biggest killer

HEALTH Experts have called for closer study of less-lethal strains of the H5N1 bird flu virus because they might be more likely candidates to spark an influenza pandemic.

"This makes sense from an evolutionary viewpoint. If a virus is so lethal that it kills 50 percent of its hosts, then it will not transmit very far to infect many other people, and it will die out relatively quickly. It is less likely to become a worldwide pandemic," Tang said.

***

Low-pathogenic forms of bird flu do cause illness among birds

Wild birds were thought not to suffer from mild forms of avian influenza. But new data suggest that so-called ‘low-pathogenic’ avian influenza viruses do affect the lives of birds. ...a team of ecologists and virologists showed that infected individuals initiate their migration by the end of January or early February, while uninfected individuals already do so by the end of December. Also, their next ‘fuelling station’ is only 35 km away instead of the usual 250 km. Sick birds fuel at a lower rate: they take fewer bites per day and their digestion seems to be impaired. Presumably, this is due to their need to channel more energy towards their immune system.

Migratory swans carrying a mild form of avian influenza depart from The Netherlands more than a month after their healthy counterparts do. They also feed slower and fly shorter distances. These insights will be published on January 31, 2007 in PLoS ONE, the International, peer-reviewed, open-access, online publication from the Public Library of Science ( PLoS ) by scientists from the Netherlands Institute of Ecology ( NIOO-KNAW ) and the Department of Virology of the Erasmus MC. This contrasts previous ideas that mild forms of bird flu do not cause illness among wild birds. Moreover, these patterns can affect the rate of spread of avian influenza.

"These mild virus-types always formed the origin of massive pandemics such as the Spanish Flu. Only such viruses that are non-lethal to birds can be spread easily by ( wild or captive ) birds, simply because the birds stay alive." Only after mixing with human flu can such a low-pathogenic avian flu cause the nightmare of a deadly pandemic among humans. "High-pathogenic avian flu that causes death among birds seems to originate from intensive poultry farms."

It's funny how on one hand people claim a conspiracy to cover up the truth with this outbreak, but then on the other, panic because of what they read in the paper. I find those two facts hard to reconcile, seeing as the Media is deliberately over-hyping the situation and there has been no cover up.

The Media is dancing to industry's tune and the whole issue is nothing but cover ups. For example:

Bali's bird flu researchers under political pressure

It seems that speaking the truth on avian influenza has not won the scientists investigating the lethal virus on Bali any friends.

It all started when the results of the research appeared in a number of national and local media publications.

The most shocking part of the results was the discovery of the infection in dogs, cats and pigs.

As for the human risk, last years outbreak of Bird flu in Norfolk resulted in one human infection (incidentally, a farm worker, not a Joe Bloggs). The only symptoms he showed were a mild eye infection.

Until we see a case of human to human transmission of the virus, there is bugger all risk. Considering that even those infected in Asia lived with the birds and even then only SOME family members got ill and then only SOME of them died, it's hardly the Human killing mega-plague they want you too believe.

What they want you to believe is that the danger is a "Human killing mega-plague." And you're buying it. Or at least promoting it.

But the real danger is a mega-plague that does NOT kill, but rather sickens survivors, causes long term chronic illness and disability - and can be transmitted "genetically" unto the following generations




.

Oh ok... when they announced it on the news earliar they said all poutry exports, which i assumed ment everything. guess the media like to hype it up a bit

Im not sure who much we export there either... just gotta wait and see how this all plays out.

My guess now is that it will stay contained and will soon be out of media attention.

Ahh Soficrow, our resident "we're all going to die from >insert pathogen here

I am absolutely astounded at the misinformation put forward in this thread as "fact."

Far too much ignorance to deal with - but here's a quick hit:

Oooh, aren't we in a bad mood today? Your not usually this vociferous, Sofi..

As you do not know the "specifics," why don't you refrain from sharing your ignorance?

FACT: Bird flu does NOT need a living host - that's why it's so friggin' dangerous. The primary reservoirs appear to be environmental. Flu viruses can live for millenia in ice, over 200 days in lake water, and indefinitely where conditions involve high humidity and low temperature.

I was shooting from the hip Sofi and I did actually go and read up afterwards prior to your "outburst".

Indeed, a virus can survive for a bloody long time in Ice, as can a host of other animals as a matter of fact.

From what I have read, a virus can survive for a week at body temp, 30 odd days at 0c or indeffinately when the temp is very low. It still needs a host cell in order to replicate though, which is what I was hinting at earlier, but obviously got muddled.

The virus can enter the environment by a variety of routes, including feces - and of course, infected carcasses as they decay.

If only we had a button for "Way To State The Bloody Obvious Award"... However, without a host and not frozen, it will not last forever.

Also FYI - there is a significant body of evidence showing that "bird flu" is transmitted "genetically" in several species.

I am intrigued. Elaborate. (I am genuinely intrigued)

The unadultered hate-mongering ignorance underlying this statement is almost beyond belief.

You are parroting the agricultural industry's disinformation campaign.

Really? How come almost person to have caught has been someone who owns and breeds chickens on a home farm? With chickens wandering in and out of their houses? Some of these farms have had battery style cages, but are still, for all intents and purposes not a "commercial" venture of the type we see in the west.

Also, if you disagree with me, why not do so in an adult and polite way. I don't come and crap all over your constant posting about bloody "prions this" or "prions that". I am surprised you haven't mentioned prions in this thread, but I guess there is still time.....

"High-pathogenic avian flu that causes death among birds seems to originate from intensive poultry farms."

Nice spin, Sofi... "Most" scientists..... One person by the name Van Gills mentioned it once in an article that was about something else entirely. hardly call that most. Even so, logically, it does stand to reason.

The article goes on about how infected swans with a "low pathogen" virus seem to not want to eat, or fly so far...

Jeebus, really? I guess I wouldn't be keen on flying from Siberia to Holland if I had a touch of flu...

One can also summise that Wild Swans would have a more robust immune system, having been exposed all their lives, survival of the fittest etc.

Whereas battery chickens, with all the god-knows-what used to feed them and make them grow, are likely to have a most innefficent immune system, thereby not being able to fight off infection as easily.

Stands to bloody reason and is hardly a scientific revelation....

The Media is dancing to industry's tune and the whole issue is nothing but cover ups. For example

Yeah, right.

So the industry WANTS to highlight birdflu, make every scared of its produce and cause it's very livelyhood to be discarded?

Industry likes incurring the cost of replacing 100,000's of birds when an outbreak occurs?

Industry likes it's stock prices to fall?

Yeah, right.

It's exactly the opposite. The Government may want people to be scared, as scared people are easy to manipulate, but I find it hard to believe the Poultry industry would want to make people scared of Poultry!

What they want you to believe is that the danger is a "Human killing mega-plague." And you're buying it. Or at least promoting it.

Er, am I? I thought I was telling people NOT to buy into that... Please point out the post where I did this... It's YOU who is screaming "WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE! RUN FOR THE HILLS", not I.

But the real danger is a mega-plague that does NOT kill, but rather sickens survivors, causes long term chronic illness and disability - and can be transmitted "genetically" unto the following generations

Oh yeah, I forgot, every other flu pandemic has done that.. Silly me...

The 1918 outbreak was a bird orginated virus, yet appears to have done little, if any, lasting genetic damage or caused serious debilitating illnesses in survivors, at least on the large scale.

Admittedly, there may be some who have lasting respitory damage, but that's hardly surprising if they had it bad....

The 1918 outbreak was a bird originated virus, yet appears to have done little, if any, lasting genetic damage or caused serious debilitating illnesses in survivors, at least on the large scale.

Actually it may have...

There was scientific research that has found a possible link between the 1918 flue virus and the sleeping sickness of the 1920's (Not the African sleeping sickness which is spread by a fly)

This epidemic killed over a million people and left many more in permanent coma's.

I see a documentary on it a while back but cant remember its name... sorry

Er... this is all from memory so i could well off target though

Eish this news is not good,

The vet who attended the bird flu farm is tonight being monitered in hospital,

news.sky.com...

hopefully all turns out fine,

Look, if a few turkish kids can get infected by hucking a dead birds head around PLAYING CATCH OR WHATEVER,Then others can get sick from ahndling the meat before prep.
So the family gets the flu from the chef,or the countertop, or the cutlery...
whats the difference?Cooking the meat saves the ones who eat it but not the cooker!or the kitchen........
The feces of birds is very sticky.What about walking ih it ,bringing ebnough home on yer shew to get yer cat or dog sick?
The ways of spreading this are myriad.
Those tuekish kids ate the cooked meat too.but they got sick anyways.

news.sky.com...

Turkey is possible going to be recalled from the shops.,

I didn't know where else to put this. A dead swan found in the Waterworks, a large park with 2 ponds and quite a big wild bird population, in North Belfast. The bird had some signs of avian flu such as a swollen head. Now here's the best bit, the Department of Agriculture were told about the bird lying dead in the bushes on Tuesday but didn't go to the park until Wednesday. Rats, cats, dogs other birds, anything could of been eating the swan and all be infected. Another thing I heard on the radio, was the virus brought into England in cooked meats? This means the whole story about "just cook the bird properly and you'll kill the virus" was all lies.

Originally posted by mzrti

Another thing I heard on the radio, was the virus brought into England in cooked meats? This means the whole story about "just cook the bird properly and you'll kill the virus" was all lies.

The meat was "partially processed." So it probably wasn't cooked to the recommended 170 degrees.

Begs the issue though - why the H are they feeding dead turkeys to live turkeys?

Didn't they learn anything from Mad Cow disease???

Ok, I'm new to the tinfoil hat brigade so bear with me

These could be completely disconnected, but I find it thought provoking non the less.

1) Bernard Matthews loses market share to cheap imports
news.bbc.co.uk...

2) Cruelty case further hits market share
news.bbc.co.uk...

3) Excercise 'Winter willow' is scheduled for January and February 2007
www.scotland.gov.uk...

4) Bernard Matthews farm affected by H5N1 on 1st February 2007
news.bbc.co.uk...

5) British Government pays nearly £6million compensation to Bernard Matthews
news.bbc.co.uk...

Originally posted by Wolf_o_grey

1) Bernard Matthews loses market share to cheap imports
news.bbc.co.uk...

...

4) Bernard Matthews farm affected by H5N1 on 1st February 2007
news.bbc.co.uk...

5) British Government pays nearly £6million compensation to Bernard Matthews
news.bbc.co.uk...

Nifty how it works, huh?

...Wonder if that payout will influence future test results. Do ya think?


.

Amazing if it is just coincidence

40% drop in market share at one point

Laying off 200 staff in UK

Production facilities in Eastern Europe

Approx £6mil payout, a sweetener perhaps to stop the layoffs becoming redundancies?

*Goes to find the bacofoil*