May not work for you but...

As usual i am going in the direction opposite the flow - i just replied to your Part 2, GR...but there's a lot of things to poke my proverbial steely knife into on your first thread here. I'm feeling rather 'pointy' today, too.

I view it in a negative light because of the fact its repressive.

I agree with you 100%. Repressive is the perfect word, too. It disallows/discourages a soul from thinking freely – it promises freedom or life or some such but only through means which eliminate that same thing from the get go. I guess that way it is never noticed that it is never obtained. Superstitious politics.

And while I know there are sound ideas in all philosophies, they are basically the same ones in different flavors (kind of like tacos and hamburgers are basically the same foods/food groups but appear totally different due to culture, etc – if you’ve ever eaten a hamburger with green chile in a tortilla you’d understand what I mean…if you haven’t…come see me down here and check out life through New Mexican cuisine LOL).

Religion restricts actions based on the idea that because its the word of god that it is to be followed.

Which is basically a suspect statement to start with – if Joe Blow can have the word of god then so can Jane Doe - if you believe the bible is the word of God it EVEN says that - and says that Moses is the one who passed down the ten commandments - written with the finger of God, indeed – but yet are the laws of Moses – the more I understand the bigger picture I can see that it was Moses turn to ‘be in charge’ and truly I think he was pissed about many things great and small and perhaps, just perhaps, a lot of the rules ‘given by god’ were for the purpose of seeing just who has God potential (because the God I know is so unconventional that would be the only way to define would be by removing all definitions at all).

Very high IQ, good at logic problems, and "connecting the dots" sort to speak. The rules created by religion I view as illogical. Now later you will understand why I may find them illogical while you simply do not.

No, I’m with you…same kind of mind and same view. I can’t see that God would make me a better thinker than him and then presume to dupe me with the things which befuddle him on his own drawing board. If I’m a 140 something then God is AT LEAST 170 or so…but like Spock not Freud. Highly Logical….impeccably logical and more keen on thinking than on dominating, ruling, or punishing.

As I said I see them as illogical. I see it as looking at the logic behind gods intent.

(just going from the bible for a common reference) God seems to prefer murderers over do-gooders anyway…adulterers and harlots and didn’t seem to have any problem with David killing scads of men and Solomon having 1000 women at his disposal. His prophets are best described as someone akin to ‘Aqualung’ which Jethro Tull sang about…or ‘Working Class Heros’ who are willing to ‘Imagine there is no heaven’ and nothing to kill and die for rather than decide we are dirt because we care enough to kill or die for someone or something.

The only thing that I can honestly say I believe I have discovered of God’s logic is that God values truth. Not religious truth but being true to what one stands for and believes in and speaks out as being made of. Hypocrites that never harm a flea I would think more overlooked than a murderer with integrity or an honorable thief (and yes there is such a thing but don’t look in the prisons for such – that is another story altogether).

When looking at the logic of things, or the partial logic of these religious rules you find what defines good or bad.

Which always boils down to relative terms, or ‘us’ vs ‘them.’ Logic tells me it is about ‘we’. God included. And God has always told me ‘use your best judgment’ which was often not the best thing in the end but no matter what I learned from both my ‘right’ decisions and even more so my ill-choiced ones…but the learning came from realizing why they were wrong choices for me to make – not because they were arbitrary rules applicable to all. Circumstances dictate. That is where practical thinking comes in. And logic.

Now seeing as god made these rules, you would assume that such rules would produce wanted outcomes 100% of the time. Assuming is a very dangerous thing.

In DEED! Also – the rule makers are assorted and sundry only assuming the authority that is generally held as the highest. But who has ever heard God SAY anything out loud like NO ONE pass in the intersection. The LORD Saith.
If he ever spoke at all - and I’m going back to the bible just because that’s all I can do…he said ‘this is my son’ and ‘I am proud of him’ and something to the effect of he was pleased with him and even I think once he said ‘LISTEN to HIM.’ Which no one really does, anyway – if they did, there would be no religion, IMO. And no hunger or hypocrisy or type-A personalities.

The Golden Rule is held as something everyone follows but I don’t see it. The world interprets do unto others more like do to him as he once did to you – and do it first to the next guy just in case.

The Golden Rule means that when someone around you really screws your own plans up for whatever reason….that instead of getting mad, holding it against them, or even saying something….that you would instead stop and think, ‘hey, didn’t I do something like this, too, myself….and I remember it was because of (insert human expected and common imperfection here) and man did wish the ground would open me up and swallow me. But instead I didn’t even get the chance to make it right and that thoughtlessness/lack of foresight/momentary lapse of reason turned into something that people now assign as an indelible part of my character.

SUCH AS: that dumb broad one time filled the salt shakers up with sugar and really we can’t let her do those kinds of things because she might really cause a mess…just let her bus tables and make sure she doesn’t steal the tips…

BE HONEST…isn’t that they way of the world? No one wants to say ‘Hey man – don’t worry about it…everyone has a bad day…once I did something even worse….(make up something if need be – this is one time lying is acceptable…if it makes another soul feel accepted instead of rejected and labeled…then the end justifies the means!)

Religious sorts are even more blind to the hypocrisy of feigning the golden rule. (sorry but I’m being blunt because I can’t accept some things at the expense of others’ not being accepted which is the MO of religion…accept our jesus and god will accept you into our heaven…etc…but reject jesus and GOD WILL REJECT YOU once and for all…)

If you want to follow the Word of God, then read it...then try doing it...living it (not the good or the bad but the REAL).

• Go to prison (insert any writer of the NT)
  
• Have sticks and stones throne at you (insert your name here)
  
• Get pregnant before you are married (many women in the bible – marriage meant you moved in together but engagement could be for a year and sleepovers were allowed)
  
• Sell your secrets for a night love wild lovemaking with a Philistine hussy (Samson)
  
• Let your sons run the show and eat all the donations (Eli)
  
• Let your niece be groomed in the king’s harem for a year in order to learn how to be the one he liked best (Esther – and they didn’t play checkers, I guarantee – she won his FAVOR)
  
• Have sex with the maid just to have a son (Abraham and Hagar – look what a mess THAT caused!)
  
• Lie to the king that your wife is your sister even though he wants to sleep with her (Abraham again)
  
• Give God a hard time when he gives you an assignment – even argue with Him (Moses was good at this)
  
• Slaughter all the rival prophets with a sharp knife (Elijah and Samuel)
  
• Be Nebuchadnezzar (or ‘the bad/evil guy’) when God wants you to…and do it wholeheartedly! Nebuchadnezzar was more compliant with God than most of the Kings between Solomon and Josiah….died still worshipping Marduk etc…but he never lied about it. He was what he was….just like God is I am that I am.
  
  (if you read about what God said later on about rewarding Neb a whole new world would open up and things would be much clearer)
  

GT you said:

you are much too gifted to not show appreciation to God for your talents

But he is! What better way to honor a God who exceeds Einstein, Spock, and all the current stars of astrophysicists than to refuse to be led on any other path than thinking independently?! If God gave us each our minds and we each are unique, then forsaking our own talents/abilities and novel ideas for the sake of ‘group think’ seems more like a slap in the face than giving god appreciation. Lip service is vain glory and is a human social pretense. Pragmatic results which benefit all showcase the source without question and those that do not know if they can believe or do not believe are not served any less and God is not any less appreciated. An atheist or agnostic does not appreciate God (nor do they have to because that is false) but they do appreciate AND benefit from someone who capitalizes on what God gave them in order to benefit the religious, non religious, and all sorts in between, alike...quietly and without credit either to self or to God. That’s all showy fluff and doesn’t change the outcome. Pragmatism does not strive for appreciation. I think God is no doubt a pragmatist. Empirical not theoretical or philosophical.

You also said:

God has blessed us all with equal gifts, talents, and skills although many humans fail to recognize this because they ignore Divinity.

Excellent point.

And why is that?
Because we are told by religions that it is tantamount to eternal doom as ‘the devil’ to aspire to divinity which is the very reason we have our special talents and unique abilities – we each are a part of God and yet within each of us we are God – and God DOES NOT see it as wrong to aspire to His greatness…. We are tricked by religion into denying our God-given seeds of godliness and by practical application our seeds grow into what they are meant to be. The more like God I can possibly become then surely God is propelled to even greater things by my success inspired by Him….

Just like the song says ‘you know it would be untrue if I were to say to you girl we couldn’t get much higher…’ The DOOR….the way…think about what you are told not to think about…and why…does it make sense or is holding you, God, and all of us back unnecessarily?

DefCon5, you said:

Grim good post, but its unfortunately flawed in some your understanding about certain religions.

And then

Almost all religions follow the Golden rule, which is fundamentally what the 10 commandants of the Christian/Jewish bible are. The golden rule of course being "do onto others as you would have done onto yourself". The Ten Commandments can be broken down even more simply to two commandments: 1) Love your neighbor as yourself 2) Love God above all. According to several religions, God wrote this law into peoples hearts when he created them, thus the fact that we have a conscience.

Follow and honor with words are two different things…there is not one religion in this world that is so simple (and thus undeniably effective) as following the golden rule….and even Christ said that wasn’t good enough. Christ said – when a little kid throws a rock at your face because you are black and he is white and he hates you because you do not hate him or anyone else….what you are to do is to smile and not even flinch if you can help it. Who did this?
One man. Martin Luther King. One of the few examples of Christ we’ve had in the 20th century. But his ‘religion’ was seen as a threat in that day and age and so it was not permitted to bud….how many pure religions has man killed by assassinating the solitary bold activist who goes beyond the golden rule?
And even those who work within (but not bound by) a religion, such as Mother Theresa…are not followed or emulated ..only honored in empty memorials to person, face, or word….God might have written that law on everyone’s hearts, but not many people have been able to refrain from rewriting their own right over it…..

Also, you said:

This is in no way repressive, and to be honest I would fear living in a world where this was not followed, such a world would be a hell on earth.

That is a big source of confusion….most religions are waiting either to go someplace worse or have some worse situation (worse than the first half of the 20th century) happen…how much hell do you want? It is not because of satan but because man falls for satan’s mask….and doesn’t see who wears the mask.

To live an unrestricted carnal life is literally the premise of what Satanism is, the idea that you can do what you please, when, and how you please, with no limits.

And ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make ye free. You are carnal. You live in a fleshly body until it dies. Be honest and come to terms with your humanity.

If you are talking specifically about the Satanism refined by Anton LeVey….then you obviously are judging satan’s mask instead of judging what the nature of hypocrisy is.

We obviously all can do what we want, etc…and religion (christianity) is growing but so is over legislation…and thusly crime as well and more and more criminals are made by people denying their own responsibility to self-govern.

And:

I would also say that living a life with no limits is not generally healthy; if you look at the folks that have lived that type of lifestyle, they tend to become insane.

Have you tried it? You can’t judge a lifestyle you haven’t lived so resolutely. What is insane? Being free of nonsensical restraints on mind and soul? Being able to truly say ‘the sky is the limit’ like Einstein did…or Galileo…or Michaelangelo? Even Ghandi?

Antiochus IV Epiphanes, Nero, and Caligula being prime examples.

Prime examples of a particular era in history which pretty much had the same effect even on the Jewish roots of your religion…I refer to the Maccabees and the Herods…
Inbreeding was a big factor….but the key point is:
Power should never be granted to those that seek it.

The world thinks the answer is in some perfect ruler…even Christ denied being a ruler.

A LEADER is the only salvation for such a society….a leader is one that takes old and young alike, by the hand, one by one, and leads them across the freeways until they can cross safely by themselves. And i mean saving the world, not just a select favorite sort of part of the inhabitants in the world. The world is ONE. So in Humanity. Just like God. All we need is ONE. One anything. K.I.S.S.

Such a leader would have the very mind of Christ – who is the Express Image of God. It’s not about ‘matching wits with God’ – there is no ‘I’ in team!

Proverbs chapters 1 & 2 say that God wants us to enjoin in His wisdom – He wants to share – it is not a challenge but the greatest form of adoration – seeking to be like the one you most admire. Also – to fear God is to have a barrier in approaching him (usually a non-clean conscience) but fear in ancient Hebrew did not mean fear as fear or even as reverence…it meant more like ‘to receive the flow of God’s knowledge’…the fear of the LORD is the fount of his wits…and perfect love cast out fear. What do you have to fear from God? Unless you oppose Him and make him your adversary (who is wearing that mask you call Satan?) I know...but do you? I see no mask and just ONE God...

God has an entirely different concept then us humans do of what is Right, Righteous, fair, and Just.

How do you know this? If Grim Reaper can’t, then neither can you. If he can, then you can, and I can as well.
I know we all can – but you say no – yet say you know. I do agree with you; it is your reasoning thereof that i find inherently separatist and faulty.

Until you can see things from Gods perspective, with his wisdom, and his intelligence you cannot apply your logic to him, regardless of how intelligent you are.

But if you fear God you aren’t even near his big toe much less looking out his very eyes!

“I am not perfect, but I am foregiven”.

For what? Like Johnny Ringo and Doc Holliday? ‘For just being born?’ What have you done so wrong that God has condemned you? The book says ‘already condemned.’ Not more condemnation. You don’t need to be forgiven or perfect. Just loving and true.

I don’t see why anyone would agree that the 10 commandments are in anyway bad. First, they are a guideline as no man can truly follow them anyway, second they teach the same golden rule all major religions teach.

Not remembering the Sabbath and keeping it holy. They are not bad or good but they do have a purpose. I’ve broken every one of them. Have you?

I've studied (at least in general) most all world religions. The ten commandments seem to be unique to judeo christianity. NO one keeps them before breaking them. It is a tool not a legislation.

No if I killed a man I am sure I would feel terribly sorry for it and remorseful, I would pray about it, and I would accept that God forgave me for it.

Would you? Are you sure? How soon after? Why would you kill him in the first place, then? Is your temper uncontrollable? Why would you kill a person, do you suppose? To protect love? Life? Save another less deserving? Do you support the death penalty, at all? Why or why not?

As far as forgiveness...
Who would you need to forgive you?
The people left behind by the soul you dispatched, not God. Yourself, not God. God knows where every soul is and has vowed to not lose a single one. God kills everybody!

(if you say He gives life then by default He takes it all, too - otherwise we would be physically immortal which is actually unnatural and unnecessary, not to mention useless and ultimately worse than dying, if you can understand things beyond fear

I thank everyone for the lengthy responses, and I hope that I may have given some insight to my views and maybe made you think a bit. Anyway, I'd be more then happy to hear anybody elses thoughts, or disagreements with my topic.

I figured I would revive this little gem, instead of rewritting anything over again and respark the debate. Who knows, maybe you will see a difference of thinking in my views now then when I originally wrote this.

If your belief is good for you or it works for you then great; it doesn't mean it will work for others. I am not suggesting you are doing the same as those others who actively recruit or convert.

I read a little while ago a passage that I think is the truth for everyone. In sum, it suggested 'people were spiritually bankrupt'.

Now, many people with strong faiths will claim that is not the case.

I will give you a very brief history of my life...to get to the point I am making.

Childhood, very traumatic experiences and I had a books given to me by a woman who took me under her wing. One was Childrens Bible and the others were the Uncle Arthurs Bedtime Stories. Well, let me just say those books got me through the childhood. Perhaps it was the positive words. Now, those books were modified for children so certain truths were left out of stories. Bit like Bambi not dying at the end of the movie. This I believe led me to a delluded state of hope and love. I would lay in bed and pray for Jesus to help me. I had never seen, nor experienced anything but it was 'hope' and a childhood belief that I was loved, so I could go on with that hope.

It was a pure ignorance, just belief in goodness and love.

As an adult, my life was ok for a time and you don't question your beliefs or truths, every thing is working out or you have a contentment with the present. It is not until as an adult that you begin to read the same stories in the Bible and discover, that you have been protected from the truths. For me, I just didnt see the truth and when I did, I cried to god. I know that sounds really pathetic and perhaps I am that? But, I was devastated to see how women were portrayed in the bible. I prayed saying 'women aren't bad!' I couldn't fathom the 'wrath' of god. This just wasn't my god, the god I had believed in as a child.

Perhaps I had rose coloured glasses on, but the truth is a shock. I started to question my faith. I believe all people do at somestage.
I was aware of the commandments and felt bad and would say sorry to god in my prayers when I broke them (I carried guilt/pain around with me) = that is repressive. I knew I was a sinner but kept trying to be a better person, always striving to do good. I lived my life like that, so when I experienced more pain, I just did not understand how or why it was happening. I then considered that god was punishing me, or I had been smited? This is not the god that I had perceived in my mind as a child, but this is the god depicted in the bible.

Now, I feel very empty and a lot of grief. My belief doesn't preserve me anymore. And, I don't have another belief to replace it. I just think now, it is better to have no belief that way you can't be hurt by it. No expectations so then your not disappointed/hurt.

I feel now that there is no god, if there was why would god not protect me as a child? I am a fragile person and the last 2 years have been very hard. Why would god allow a person to have so much pain? When you pray for help, it doesn't come. It feels like I have been stripped bare, not financially, (well, to a point, but I don't care about that) but, those that I loved have been taken from me. Why would god do that? All of my feelings and emotions stem from my absolute faith in god as a child. It has dictated my life, forged who I am. And that is a worry.

I don't pray anymore. I don't ask for anything. And that is a very strange feeling. The only hope I had was my faith in god and JC. Now I don't have even that. Words cannot describe the pain of this 'no belief'.

I am not meaning to winge or rave on. I am glad you have a belief system that works for you, people need something to believe in.







[edit on 18-3-2007 by NJE777]

double post








[edit on 18-3-2007 by NJE777]

Fact is though that there isn't any reason to ask god for anything. We don't know whats best for us, or what is intended of us. Maybe you are teaching life lessons to those around you and don't even know it. Maybe you have touched and changed the lives of many people simply by being alive and living through what you live through.

What is known is that we know little, and nothing of the future. I believe in the fact that we are who we are from birth for a reason. From there we can't say what was best for us, what was right or wrong, etc. All we can say is "This is who I am, this is how I wanted my life to be" and just work off of that. Everything else is gods place to decide. We try as hard as we can to get where we want to be, and where we want to be is determined by who we are. We are who we are for a reason.