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posted on Jan, 30 2007 @ 01:04 PM
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*EDIT:* I just notice the length of this thread. Chances are you will look at the length and close out. I would not be surprised, as chances are I would do so as well. I just ask you that if you have the time to hear me out because its rather important to me. If not, I understand just the same. Now onto the thread.




As one of my favorite songs say "It may not work for you but, it works for me"

Keep this in mind over the course of this thread and the topic of religion in general.

What works for me may indeed not work for you, and I am nobody to tell you otherwise. I'll clarify before anything else that I don't hold a religious belief. You could call me agnostic except for the fact I am not like most agnostics. I will divulge into what I mean by that later on.

The first thing I would like to touch bases on is how I view religion. I view it in a negative light. Not that its evil or anything to that extent. I don't view things as evil or holy. I view it in a negative light because of the fact its repressive. Not don't go jumping around thinking I said oppressive, I said Repressive. It is very much repressive as it restricts actions. Religion restricts actions based on the idea that because its the word of god that it is to be followed.

I consider myself a pretty logical person. Very high IQ, good at logic problems, and "connecting the dots" sort to speak. The rules created by religion I view as illogical. Now later you will understand why I may find them illogical while you simply do not.

As I said I see them as illogical. I see it as looking at the logic behind gods intent. If god says thou shall not kill, I must ask why. I cannot accept "because god says so". I want to understand things before I act upon them, thus I must find the logical reasoning to performing such an action. When looking at the logic of things, or the partial logic of these religious rules you find what defines good or bad.

Good and bad are defined by the outcome. Was it more or less beneficial then desired. If it is a positive outcome, its good. If it produces a negative or unwanted outcome, its bad. Now seeing as god made these rules, you would assume that such rules would produce wanted outcomes 100% of the time. Assuming is a very dangerous thing.

Now we will both agree that in the short term, the effects of the 10 commandments are overwhelmingly negative or bad. I can see WHY these commandments were made because the logic behind them says the outcome will be bad...or will it? Humans have the remarkable ablility to discard and ignore anything outside of their own timeframe. I highly doubt when you get into your car everyday you ask yourself "what could this be causing 100 years from now?"

Now say for instance you kill a man. Accident or not, hes dead. You are thinking that you are going to hell because you just commited a horrible deed. There is simply no way that what you did was beneficial or positive. What you don't realize is had that man lived, he would have killed 1000 people. So you unknowingly saved 1000 innocent people. Now don't get ahead of my and say I am condoning murder.

So maybe the 1000 people live. Those 1000 people now alive cause the deaths of 10000 people. Now your action has gone from bad to good back to bad again. This could continue...til the end of time, which is exactly my point. All outcomes are not outcomes at all. There is only one outcome at thats the end result where time ceases to exist. The end of the universe will be the only true outcome. That is the only point in which you can say whether or not you had a possitive or negative effect on the fate of humanity. That murder may have saved 1.2 billion people by the end of it all and killed 500 million. Unlikely, well to be honest we don't know.

We don't know...hell of a statement isn't it? Makes you feel insignificant to an extent. Alone maybe? Maybe it just makes you feel obsolete and primitive. Being aware of the fact you don't know is rarely ever a comforting feeling and is most of the time a negative feeling, as in it is unwanted. But the truth is that we don't know. I am not talking about god, Im talking about what comes next, what effects our actions have, we just don't know.

If we don't know how our actions effect the future, how can we say if what we did is logically good or bad? Is it logical to make decisions on what you have no clue about? Can you make a decision based on good and bad when you have no knowing of the effects of such an action?

"Good intentions pave the road to hell" Does that mean that I'm telling everyone who has good intention that they are going to hell? No haha. What I am saying is that sometimes our good intent does not always lead to good results. I cannot say that for certian as it would be hypocritical to say I know whether or not it was a good result, but my point is that we don't know whether or not it will end good or not, so why do we base our lifestyles on it?

Now back to me personally. I told you that I could be considered agnostic. Well in a sense, yes I could. In a sense I couldn't be considered such. I do what feels most fitting of me in life. What I feel most comfortable doing, what fits me best. I'm stubborn, I'm selfless, I'm honest, amoung many other things. My actions are determind by the type of person I was born as, rather then the type of person I have been told to be. I believe that at birth we are who we are for a reason. Our upbringing does indeed play a major role but I believe that it also is for a reason. I feel that any change should be from an internal cause, rather then external. Internal for example, would be a conversation where I realize a flaw in my own logic, or a good point made that allows me to see past a flaw. An external source would be the bible or government law or anything else. Something that you do because of external factors, rather then internal factors. You do something because it is who you are, rather then what you are told to do.

Acting thus so means that I don't believe in following religion, as I believe every person should act according to them. "It May not work for you, but it works for me" I say that because what works for me, doesn't always, and should always work for you. And what works for me and you, may not work for somebody else. We are individuals, and purposely so. I raise the point that I cannot be completely considered agnostic as you will find me talking to some one who isn't there at times. Why? Well I see it in two ways for me personally.

1. its not hurting anyone or myself, it isn't having any negative effects, so whats the harm? If there is a god, then I am thanking god for everyday I have here. I dont ask to be saved from a certian situation as I realize the amount of good that can come from a bad situation and that just because its a bad situation doesn't mean it isn't a beneficial experience. 2. It helps me clarify my own thoughts and understand myself. If god isn't listening, well there is still one person listening, and that's me. Listen to myself and try to understand myself, so maybe I can help myself.

So it isn't exactly something an agnostic does but it's something that feels comfortable to me. If I can look myself in the mirror and be free of a guilty conscience, I don't care whether I go to heaven or hell. If I go to heaven, I did what was right. I go to hell, I go with a clear conscience and my head held high with no regret. The last thing I will do is follow the rules, and spend an eternity with a guilty conscience. Heaven with a guilty conscience is hell anyway.

So thats my post for all of you to get out what I've been trying to say. Chances are by this point you aren't reading, and if you are, you are probably to exausted to formulate any response at this time. But I would appriciate any thoughts you have, it is nice to know some one heard you. Good day ATSers


[edit on 30-1-2007 by grimreaper797]




posted on Jan, 30 2007 @ 01:30 PM
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Bravo, I have to vote this Way Above. I agree with almost everything you posted. AboveTopSecret.com needs more members like you.



posted on Jan, 30 2007 @ 04:23 PM
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I appriciate that for the time you took to read the thread. Im sure waiting for the usuals I see in here (greattech, ET, queen, etc.) to come in here and state their agreements/most likely disagreements with what I have posted.

A simple assertion I must make before it goes any further is that there is no possible chance I will ever convert into a religion even if god himself told me the bible was indeed his word simply because I must do whats fitting of me. I cannot lie to myself and get away with it. I must do what is correct to me even if it goes against the belief of a religion, whether the religion is right or wrong. Mainly because to me, shame is more of a hell then any biblical hell you can throw at me.



posted on Jan, 30 2007 @ 06:05 PM
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grimreaper797, you are much too gifted to not show appreciation to God for your talents. I went through a period 11-17 years ago where I completely fell away from God and showed no appreciation to Him nor honored Him, even though He gave me a talent in mathematics. 11 years ago, I was crushed near death and stayed a few days in the intensive care unit of a hospital. 8 months later, I found faith and have been loving, honoring, and appreciating God since.

God has blessed us all with equal gifts, talents, and skills although many humans fail to recognize this because they ignore Divinity.

Honor who created you and you are doing the best you can.

Honor who created you and you will be honored in return.



posted on Jan, 30 2007 @ 06:17 PM
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GreatTech, I don't need religion or anything of that sort to appriciate god. I can say I believe in god without believing any religion. I can say that I am agnostic because I think its impossible to prove whether or not god exists. I choose to talk to a god though because I see no harm in it and I don't see why not. If I feel comfortable doing it and it brings no negative effects, then I don't see why not.

See you went from one extreme to another extreme in an attempt to make up for it or so it seems. I prefer the way I live because it fits me best. I believe that god would have made me this way to live this way. He didn't make me who I am so I can change into a christian and be like a bunch of other people. I act the way I act because its who I am. I don't expect you to act the same as me as you are not me.



posted on Jan, 30 2007 @ 09:36 PM
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Great job Grim, works for me, too. I am a bit of a spiritual anarchist myself.

There's just one thing I feel the need to ask if you don't mind:

Do you tend to equate religion with Christianity? I am curious about this because although I didn't see you actually use the word 'Christianity' (I noticed you using the word 'religion') yet you spoke of the Christian concepts like Heaven or Hell instead of perhaps Nirvana or the Summerland.

What you said could be applied to any type of religion, I just couldn't help notice that you used Christian themes. Why is that?



posted on Jan, 30 2007 @ 09:47 PM
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WWN, I think its because I currently have a group of baptists christians who are under the impression that they can get me to convert to christianity haha.

But yes, It can be applied to any religion. I view any after life all the same. If my actions determine my placement in afterlife, then it will be what it is because I must do me regardless of what punishment I receive for it. As far as Im concerned afterlife has no real importance to me as 1. It will happen after I die and have no control over its existance nor can I prove or disprove its existance and 2. It has no effect on my decisions regardless of existance.

As with god, his existance really has no effect on my actions and never will. I do what I do because its who I am. Anything different and I wouldn't be able to respect myself. I don't think I could picture an eternity of even the most heavenly place if I don't respect myself or have a clear conscience.



posted on Jan, 30 2007 @ 10:14 PM
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Grim good post, but its unfortunately flawed in some your understanding about certain religions.



The first thing I would like to touch bases on is how I view religion. I view it in a negative light. Not that its evil or anything to that extent. I don't view things as evil or holy. I view it in a negative light because of the fact its repressive. Not don't go jumping around thinking I said oppressive, I said Repressive. It is very much repressive as it restricts actions. Religion restricts actions based on the idea that because its the word of god that it is to be followed.


Almost all religions follow the Golden rule, which is fundamentally what the 10 commandants of the Christian/Jewish bible are. The golden rule of course being "do onto others as you would have done onto yourself". The Ten Commandments can be broken down even more simply to two commandments: 1) Love your neighbor as yourself 2) Love God above all. According to several religions, God wrote this law into peoples hearts when he created them, thus the fact that we have a conscience.

This is in no way repressive, and to be honest I would fear living in a world where this was not followed, such a world would be a hell on earth. To live an unrestricted carnal life is literally the premise of what Satanism is, the idea that you can do what you please, when, and how you please, with no limits. I would also say that living a life with no limits is not generally healthy; if you look at the folks that have lived that type of lifestyle, they tend to become insane. This is why we see certain nobility through the ages, especially where they were considered gods on earth, become so horrible that they are still remembered for their actions to this day. Antiochus IV Epiphanes, Nero, and Caligula being prime examples.



The rules created by religion I view as illogical. Now later you will understand why I may find them illogical while you simply do not.


Here is your first serious problem, as a human you cannot match wits with God; I don’t care how intelligent you are. The fact that you don’t have fear of God tells me that you lack Wisdom. Fear of God is the first sign of wisdom, and it is considered the greatest gift of the spirit. Also there is perspective, you do not have Gods perspective on things thus you cannot apply your human logic to understanding him.

God has an entirely different concept then us humans do of what is Right, Righteous, fair, and Just. He also does not necessarily operate within the same set of laws we do.

By way of example, lets say that you wrote a piece of software like the Sims, would you have a problem with deleting that piece of software, after all you created it? Would you be wrong or sinful in doing so? Well it’s the same thing here, God is no respecter of man we are the creation, he the creator, and:


Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


Until you can see things from Gods perspective, with his wisdom, and his intelligence you cannot apply your logic to him, regardless of how intelligent you are.



I cannot accept "because god says so". I want to understand things before I act upon them, thus I must find the logical reasoning to performing such an action. When looking at the logic of things, or the partial logic of these religious rules you find what defines good or bad.



This is a very complex subject you’re hinting at here, there are entire books written on the topic and it is very much the core of Christianity.

The rules only exist at this point to show us how we are supposed to try and live, they condemn all men and do nothing to save us. To understand what I am getting at you first need to understand that God is the perfect being; he is sinless/flawless. Sin exists simply because God exists, not because he made sin or anything like that. God cannot allow something that is flawed to enter into his presence, as that would contaminate him, so to speak. Now a human cannot pay off a single sin, as compared to how perfect that God is, even the slightest blemish of sin is infinitely huge, and thus unpayable. Its also important to realize that a sin is a sin, murder is not any worse then telling a lie in Gods eyes. So all men, regardless of religion have sinned, and thus cannot enter into the presence of God under their own power.

This totally invalidates the rules, and thus most of your logic. Man does not get into the presence of God by following the rules, as its not possible for him to follow the rules. Man put himself in that situation when he chose to attempt to follow the Law (which he could not) in the Garden of Eden, up to that point man had lived under the grace of God. Therefore, God had to come up with a way for man to re-attain grace, and he did that by becoming flesh, living a perfect life and being sacrificed on the Cross. This was the ultimate sacrifice for the forgiveness of our sins. So now, man lives under grace, not under the law. However to accept that grace, you must accept Christ and truly repent of your sins. At this point the law only exists to show us how we should strive to live and when we fail at doing so, That is where the logic of folks that say that religion is the “opiate of the masses” is incorrect.

This is the basis of what Christians mean when they talk about salvation through grace, what they mean when they say “I am not perfect, but I am foregiven”.

I did not realize how hard this topic is to express until I started writing it, hopefully this makes sense.



Good and bad are defined by the outcome. Was it more or less beneficial then desired. If it is a positive outcome, its good. If it produces a negative or unwanted outcome, its bad. Now seeing as god made these rules, you would assume that such rules would produce wanted outcomes 100% of the time. Assuming is a very dangerous thing.


In the beginning God made man to live under grace, he lived a perfect life in a perfect environment, and all was good with the world. When man chose to become more like God by trying to live under the law the world became “altered”. Sin came into being on the planet and it has never been the same since. If we had stayed under grace, then none of this would have happened to begin with. Additionally, if man followed the law to the best of his ability, then the world would be a much better place. Unfortunately many don’t, they want to live a worldly, selfish, lifestyle; much like the one you mentioned above.



Now we will both agree that in the short term, the effects of the 10 commandments are overwhelmingly negative or bad. I can see WHY these commandments were made because the logic behind them says the outcome will be bad...or will it? Humans have the remarkable ablility to discard and ignore anything outside of their own timeframe. I highly doubt when you get into your car everyday you ask yourself "what could this be causing 100 years from now?"


I don’t see why anyone would agree that the 10 commandments are in anyway bad. First, they are a guideline as no man can truly follow them anyway, second they teach the same golden rule all major religions teach.



Now say for instance you kill a man. Accident or not, hes dead. You are thinking that you are going to hell because you just commited a horrible deed. There is simply no way that what you did was beneficial or positive. What you don't realize is had that man lived, he would have killed 1000 people. So you unknowingly saved 1000 innocent people. Now don't get ahead of my and say I am condoning murder.


No if I killed a man I am sure I would feel terribly sorry for it and remorseful, I would pray about it, and I would accept that God forgave me for it. Again its grace, not rules.


Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


So if I am a Christian, I will try and live up to the law to the best of my ability, but I will fail. When I fail, I will receive forgiveness and try and not screw up again.



That murder may have saved 1.2 billion people by the end of it all and killed 500 million. Unlikely, well to be honest we don't know.


Nevertheless, God would know the outcome, and thus perhaps that is why he allowed it to happen the way that it did. The bible does teach something of predestination, there must be for God to be Omniscience, the verse I quoted above is one used to show that there is a set plan to the way things are meant to work out.



We don't know...hell of a statement isn't it? Makes you feel insignificant to an extent. Alone maybe? Maybe it just makes you feel obsolete and primitive. Being aware of the fact you don't know is rarely ever a comforting feeling and is most of the time a negative feeling, as in it is unwanted. But the truth is that we don't know.


Sorry Christians are not going to follow this line of thought because we know we are not alone, and we have faith that whatever happens "God's Will" for us will be done. It sounds very sad and lonely not having faith.


[edit on 1/30/2007 by defcon5]



posted on Jan, 30 2007 @ 10:15 PM
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I feel that any change should be from an internal cause, rather then external. Internal for example, would be a conversation where I realize a flaw in my own logic, or a good point made that allows me to see past a flaw. An external source would be the bible or government law or anything else.


There is nothing external about receiving salvation; it’s not something that someone is going to prove to you, its something that you will feel. Unfortunately grim I have a feeling that your experiences with religion have been poor quality, as you don’t really understand it very well. It sounds to me like someone tried to force it upon you, and I am going to guess from some of your concepts on things such as the law and works, that it was someone with a Catholic background. Catholics put a much greater emphasis on salvation through works, and Catholicism is actually where the misconception of Christianity “being a opiate for the masses” comes from. Catholicism is also the group to blame for all the Christian wars throughout time, the crusades, the inquisitions, etc. It has done more damage to Christianity then anything else in history.



Acting thus so means that I don't believe in following religion, as I believe every person should act according to them. "It May not work for you, but it works for me" I say that because what works for me, doesn't always, and should always work for you.


Believe it or not, even though the Jehovah’s witnesses have given Christians a bad name in being too overzealous, this is biblically correct:



Mat 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
Mar 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
Luk 9:5 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.


When someone does not believe you are not supposed to keep at them about it, you are supposed to kick the dust from your feet, and leave. Man cannot change another mans heart, only the spirit of God can do that, so there is no point to try and force your beliefs on someone that will not accept them.

Hope that all makes sense.
Well that’s it grim, see you in chat later…


[edit on 1/30/2007 by defcon5]



posted on Jan, 30 2007 @ 10:47 PM
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Originally posted by defcon5
Catholics put a much greater emphasis on salvation through works, and Catholicism is actually where the misconception of Christianity “being a opiate for the masses” comes from. Catholicism is also the group to blame for all the Christian wars throughout time, the crusades, the inquisitions, etc. It has done more damage to Christianity then anything else in history.


defcon5, if it not were for Catholicism, there would be no Christianity. Catholicism was the first Christian religion. Catholics wrote the Bible. Catholics have created systems that have benefitted billions of people worldwide.

Where is there a true leader in the Protestant churches? Protestant churches are as organized as cavemen were.

The USA is a world security risk because it is Protestant and not Catholic.



posted on Jan, 30 2007 @ 11:01 PM
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Almost all religions follow the Golden rule, which is fundamentally what the 10 commandants of the Christian/Jewish bible are. The golden rule of course being do onto others as you would have done onto yourself.


That is driven by equality. If you wouldn't want to feel it, why would he, as he would equal to you as a human being. I agree with that, but we are not all the same. What one person would not want done to them, another person may not care if it is done to them.



The Ten Commandments can be broken down even more simply to two commandments: 1) Love your neighbor as yourself 2) Love God. According to several religions, God wrote this law into peoples hearts when he created them, thus the fact that we have a conscience.


In saying that, you pretty much prove my point. He wrote the laws into the people hearts. So why would he write more laws that are not part of you? Obviously he wrote into your heart what he wanted to become of you. Hence the whole point of my thread. You were made a certian way, whether by god or nature. You were made with written rules into you, and that should not change from any external factor.



This is in no way repressive, and to be honest I would fear living in a world where this was not followed, such a world would be a hell on earth.


It would be followed without the knowing of god because you would still have certian things written into your heart by god. In that sense you would be exactly as god intended you to be. So long as you follow yourself, you will not fail. Follow some one else, or something else, and you go against the wishes of god himself. Reason being god intended a certian path for you by creating you a specific person. By allowing yourself to be lead into some one you are not in the name of religion is to say you follow what you are told to do, rather then what you were born to do.



To live an unrestricted carnal life is literally the premise of what Satanism is, the idea that you can do what you please when and how you please with no limits.


no limits? What stops an agnostic person from commiting murder?



I would also say that living a life with no limits is not generally healthy; if you look at the folks that have lived that type of lifestyle, they tend to become insane. This is why we see certain nobility through the ages, especially were they were considered gods on earth, become so horrible that they are still remembered for their actions to this day. Antiochus IV Epiphanes, Nero, and Caligula being prime examples.


man corrupted by power is hardly something that can relate to man leading the life he was meant to lead.



Here is your first serious problem, as a human you cannot match wits with God; I don’t care how intelligent you are. The fact that you don’t have fear of God tells me that you lack Wisdom. Fear of God is the first sign of wisdom, and it is considered the greatest gift of the spirit. Also there is perspective, you do not have Gods perspective on things thus you cannot apply your human logic to understanding him.


Fear is from self preservation. Do I fear dying for nothing? More so then I fear dying to save my child. I don't fear it because there is nothing to fear. I cannot fear dying and going to hell because I have no reason to fear it. If I do something with no regrets, I don't fear the outcome. Theres nothing to fear if you would make the same decisions again regardless of the outcome. Nervous, thats another story. But fear gives off the idea that I would regret putting myself in that position, which I wouldn't.



God has an entirely different concept then us humans do of what is Right, Righteous, fair, and Just. He also does not necessarily operate within the same set of laws we do.


I would beg to differ as it would not make sense to take such an action. To make it so the basic laws which you hope they follow are different from one another in definition would be to create a divide between them purposely. I don't see any point to creating a large rift, unless you want to cause problems purposely. Why is it that you feel god must be so complex? Why can't he just make things as simple as possible, and then leave us to do the rest? It would be much more simple to have the same definition of just, right, and fair, Build us with everything we need to forfil our own destiny, and let us discover who we are so we can do as he intended.

Why make things so much more complicated for no purpose at all?
It isn't about proving anything, as you would prove just as much from self realization as you would religious realization, actually probably prove more with self realization.



By way of example, lets say that you wrote a piece of software like the Sims, would you have a problem with deleting that piece of software, after all you created it?


Yea I would actually. It would be pointless to just delete it. I would study it to see why I wanted to delete it in the first place, and why it didn't fit what I had expected. Even then I would use it as a reference as nothing of benefit can come from deleting it.(unless you needed space urgently and had no room).



Would you be wrong or sinful in doing so?


Personally I would feel pretty stupid doing so as it held no real purpose. I'd wonder why I deleted it, and whether or not that was a proper decision. If it wasn't, I would feel a small sense of shame, as it would show I didn't think before I decided to act.



Until you can see things from Gods perspective, with his wisdom, and his intelligence you cannot apply your logic to him, regardless of how intelligent you are.


yes but thats not the point. The point is who I am. I am not suppose to be god, or become as close as I can to him. He didn't make me to be a copy of him. If he did, I wouldn't have a problem being perfect according to the bible. None of us would. The reason we do is because we aren't made perfect. That is done for a reason. Its not to challenge us till we die either. We are made unlike god because god doesn't intend us to be just like god. You are trying to be some one you are not, why can't you just live with who you are and stop trying to be some one else (god).


The rules only exist at this point to show us how we are supposed to try and live, they condemn all men and do nothing to save us. To understand what I am getting at you first need to understand that God is the perfect being; he is sinless/flawless. Sin exists simply because God exists, not because he made sin or anything like that. God cannot allow something that is flawed to enter into his presence, as that would contaminate him, so to speak.


That in no way answers the question. What makes a flaw? Anything that isn't god? Well what is god? Is god everything the commandments list? What makes god perfect? The lack of flaws? Well then we get back to what a flaw is. It becomes circle logic. God is perfect because he is flawless, and flawless is being god. It doesn't achive anything, nor explain anything about why its a flaw or why god is perfect. What makes him perfect?

Or is it that "he just is"? That can't work as then the idea the universe "just is" would then work. So what makes god perfect. Whats the logic behind god being perfect? Because god doesn't sin? Well what is a sin? The commandments. Well the commandments were made by god. Why did god make them? Because they reflect himself. Well then why is he perfect? It all comes back to why he is perfect. You must eventually analyse the commandments and why they would be logically flawless.

We cannot say whether or not they are flawless because we don't know. Why would god make us follow something blindly, especially knowing the greed of man? He would let us follow something blindly knowing that we could then be easily misleaded? Why weren't THESE commandments written into our hearts?


This totally invalidates the rules, and thus most of your logic. Man does not get into the presence of God by following the rules, as its not possible for him to follow the rules.


then why make the rules?



Man put himself in that situation when he chose to attempt to follow the Law (which he could not) in the Garden of Eden, up to that point man had lived under the grace of God. Therefore, God had to come up with a way for man to re-attain grace, and he did that by becoming flesh, living a perfect life and being sacrificed on the Cross. This was the ultimate sacrifice for the forgiveness of our sins. So now, man lives under grace, not under the law. However to accept that grace, you must accept Christ and truly repent of your sins. At this point the law only exists to show us how we should strive to live and when we fail at doing so, That is were the logic of folks that say that religion is the “opiate of the masses” is incorrect.


Makes no sense. Thats like saying the government is going to make a bunch of unattainable rules. When we cannot attain the rules, we must beg for forgiveness and hope it doesn't happen again which it will. Why not just make rules that are attainable, or make a being that can attain these goals you create? Its completely illogical to do what you just stated unless god is just screwing with us and is on a huge power trip. I think not.



I did not realize how hard this topic is to express until I started writing it, hopefully this makes sense.


I made sense of it. It just doesn't make logical sense as it would be saying. "I am god, you will do as I please." If religion is about treating your neighbor as you would like to be treated, then god would be a hypocryte. Tell me, would it make sense to break a creation for the fact you told it to do something you knew it could not do? Why would you create it obsolete?



posted on Jan, 30 2007 @ 11:21 PM
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In the beginning God made man to live under grace,


why? What the logic behind making man obsolete to the rules, knowingly?


he lived a perfect life in a perfect environment, and all was good with the world. When man chose to become more like God by trying to live under the law the world became “altered”. Sin came into being on the planet and
it has never been the same since.

No by this description sin always existed, and always has existed since the dawn of man. If Living under gods grace mean no sin, then after christs death there was no sin again. Or that if you except jesus as your savior that sin no long applies to you, according to this description. Sin has always exist as long as man/religion has existed.



If we had stayed under grace, then none of this would have happened to begin with. Additionally, if man followed the law to the best of his ability, then the world would be a much better place. Unfortunately many don’t, they want to live a worldly, selfish, lifestyle; much like the one you mentioned above.


which one I mentioned above? You must not understand me if you think I am talking about a selfish lifestyle. Apparently, you would live a selfish lifestyle if it were not for god. I, would not. I would indeed act on my own feelings and personality, but do not translate that into selfishness. I give to poor not because I want to be like god, but because its part of who I am. When there is no god, there is still some one who you can't escape the judgement from, and thats yourself.



I don’t see why anyone would agree that the 10 commandments are in anyway bad. First, they are a guideline as no man can truly follow them anyway, second they teach the same golden rule all major religions teach.


Caught a typo. I meant that the effects of not following the 10 commandments in the short term is usually always negative. In the long term following the commandments may cause more negative effects then positive though.



No if I killed a man I am sure I would feel terribly sorry for it and remorseful, I would pray about it, and I would accept that God forgave me for it. Again its grace, not rules.


Well depending on the circumstance, I might not. If it meant saving my child, and I killed a man, I would feel no remorse. Would I go to hell, possibly, I am unsure, and I don't know if it would be my damnation. But the fact is I can live with that sacrifice for my child. If an eternal damnation and suffering meant my child gets to live life, then I will take that option in a heartbeat because thats something that makes me who I am. I didn't do it because of God, I did it because of my own standards and my own principles. I have certian principles that are more valuable then my life, and my afterlife. Suffering to uphold these principles is one you can either except or not except based on who you are.

But for me to go against my principles because I don't want to go to hell, that to me is more selfish then any lifestyle that could be lead here on earth. Thats fear. I will not fear as it will be my true damnation. I may go to heaven if I don't kill that man and he kills my child, but I would be in a more unbearable hell then any biblical hell could give me.

If you are being torn apart from the inside, it doesn't matter how perfect the love and heaven that surround you is, you will still be in hell for eternity. I will not let that happen to me. Being torn apart from the inside is the worst feeling that can be felt, and it can only be caused by you. No external source can tear you apart from within. It can beat you down, insult you, and surround you with hate, but only you can tear yourself apart from the inside.


So if I am a Christian, I will try and live up to the law to the best of my ability, but I will fail. When I fail, I will receive forgiveness and try and not screw up again.


More enforcing of the idea that god see's fair as "you do what I say, and like it". If thats fair, I have no reason to respect such a being. I will not treat myself as a slave, servant, or dirt simply because of what I came into existance as. I will respect myself, and any one who cannot respect me for who I am, even my creator, does not deserve respect. Treat as you would like to be treated right? If god shows me no respect because I am not like him, I should do likewise according to the golden rule of religion.



Nevertheless, God would know the outcome, and thus perhaps that is why he allowed it to happen the way that it did. The bible does teach something of predestination, there must be for God to be Omniscience, the verse I quoted above is one used to show that there is a set plan to the way things are meant to work out.


well I personally believe in the tree branching theory that everything is happening at once. God knows all because he can see all possible branches, for all possible actions. This does not mean YOUR life is determind, just that he knows where its headed, and every possibly choice you can make.



Sorry Christians are not going to follow this line of thought because we know we are not alone, and we have faith that whatever happens "God's Will" for us will be done. It sounds very sad and lonely not having faith.


I don't personally feel alone or any of those things. I am perfectly comfortable with saying I don't know because I am not meant to know. That doesn't make me anything less, that just makes me who I am. I personally never feel real loneliness as its not a big deal to be alone to me. I believe I have the capability to do whatever I can. If I can do it and I fail, then I fail. No sense of feeling afraid or sad about it. I am who I am, I have my limits, I know this and I can live with it.



posted on Jan, 30 2007 @ 11:28 PM
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Originally posted by defcon5
There is nothing external about receiving salvation; it’s not something that someone is going to prove to you, its something that you will feel.


Salvation is from an external source. It doesn't come to be within you. It is given from god, thus external. Im not talking just physical here. Im talking about anything that does not come to be within you.

But I agree it is not something some one will be able to prove to you. I strongly believe the only change that should come is one from within. The only difference is I believe it should be for whatever reason, not just god. If you realize that your belief toward biology for example is flawed, you change your own viewpoint of it so that it makes more sense. No one can just force you to see it differently, you must do so willingly. I believe that willingness can only come from understanding and understanding is logic. Logic is the key to changing your outlook on things. If you just accept something, you don't really understand why you changed, thus you never really changed.

You have to understand why your doing it to have truely changed. I know that I have truely changed when regardless of how the external factors change, I am still the same person. That means that I have changed, rather then I adapted to fit my temporary environment. If hell didn't exist, and you stopped acting the way you do now, you never really changed, just adapted to fit external factors.



posted on Jan, 31 2007 @ 12:43 AM
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What one person would not want done to them, another person may not care if it is done to them.

If you look at the things that the Commandment tell us not to do, they are pretty much all things you don’t want people to do to you. Murder, Theft, Telling lies about someone, sleeping with their wife, etc.


He wrote the laws into the people hearts. So why would he write more laws that are not part of you?

When Moses wrote the Ten Commandments, it was before Christ died on the Cross, so the Israelites were living under the Law at that time. The Jews have thousands more laws then the Ten Commandments, as they do not accept Christ they still believe they are going to reach salvation through works, Christians believe in Salvation through Grace.


It would be followed without the knowing of god because you would still have certian things written into your heart by god. In that sense you would be exactly as god intended you to be.

Problem being that sin is always the easier and more enticing path, so it is the path most trodden. Again, though you need to stop worrying that becoming a Christian is going to in some way impede your lifestyle, I mean that is really what this is all about, right?

Your still stuck on works…its salvation through grace not works lest any man should boast.


no limits? What stops an agnostic person from commiting murder?

Fear of the reaction of society against them, and that is all that really stops them from doing anything that any whim sets them too.


man corrupted by power is hardly something that can relate to man leading the life he was meant to lead.

No what I mean is a person that can pretty much do what they want, it leads into an increasing worse lifestyle. If you have the power or the money to do anything you want after awhile everything becomes boring and you seek wilder and wilder thrills. It becomes a downward spiral, which is why you see so many famous people have serious problems in their lives.


Fear is from self preservation.

Fear of God is not the same thing as fear.


Why is it that you feel god must be so complex?

God is complex beyond your wildest imagination.
God Is Changeless
God Is All Powerful
God Is All Knowing
God Is Everywhere
God Is Eternal
God Is Holy
God Is Righteous
Just to name a few…
You could not even stand in the face of God. This is why he never appears in person to those in the Bible, and appears to Moses as a burning bush.


Why can't he just make things as simple as possible, and then leave us to do the rest? It would be much more simple to have the same definition of just, right, and fair, Build us with everything we need to fulfill our own destiny, and let us discover who we are so we can do as he intended.

Mainly because it’s a matter of perspective. For example its not right for you to kill yourself as that is the sin of self murder, but it is ok for God to allow you to die as he created you to begin with.

I guess it comes down to the same thing a parent would tell you: “When you create the Universe you can set it up anyway you want, but as long as you live under my universe you have to obey my rules”…



Why make things so much more complicated for no purpose at all?

I am sure that there is a very complex reason and a very complex plan but then end solution is very simple, again its salvation through grace. I have come to terms on what it is that I believe it to involve, but I would not expect anyone else to believe exactly what I believe. There are just some things that you need to figure out for yourself and that is one of them.


Yea I would actually. It would be pointless to just delete it. I would study it to see why I wanted to delete it in the first place, and why it didn't fit what I had expected. Even then I would use it as a reference as nothing of benefit can come from deleting it.(unless you needed space urgently and had no room).


But again it would not be wrong for you to do with it as you wish, its your creation after all.


You are trying to be some one you are not, why can't you just live with who you are and stop trying to be some one else (god).

I am not sure where you concluded that Christians try to become God, or that I specifically am trying to play God. Either way it’s incorrect.

Christians and Jews believe that God made man in his image, but that means man has an eternal spirit and soul, also that man has the capacity for the word or speech.


What makes a flaw? Anything that isn't god? Well what is god? Is god everything the commandments list? What makes god perfect? The lack of flaws?

Anything that falls outside of the perfection or grace of God is a flaw or a sin. Angels can enter the presence of God, so obviously there are other things that are without sin. Once an angel sins though he’s out, like Satan, and is cast out of the presence of God. You know what really ticks off fallen angel’s the fact that God will not forgive them and grant them grace like he has man, that is why they work here to stop others from accepting it. There is a reason for this, IMHO, and it goes along with what I believe is the complex plan I was talking about above.


Or is it that "he just is"? That can't work as then the idea the universe "just is" would then work. So what makes god perfect. Whats the logic behind god being perfect? Because god doesn't sin? Well what is a sin? The commandments. Well the commandments were made by god. Why did god make them? Because they reflect himself. Well then why is he perfect? It all comes back to why he is perfect. You must eventually analyse the commandments and why they would be logically flawless.

We cannot say whether or not they are flawless because we don't know. Why would god make us follow something blindly, especially knowing the greed of man? He would let us follow something blindly knowing that we could then be easily misleaded? Why weren't THESE commandments written into our hearts?

Ill have to come back to this bit, i have to head home shortly.


then why make the rules?

They were made for the jews in the days before the coming of the messiah, Christians don’t follow most of the rules anymore, with the exception of the ten commandments, which we try and follow.


Makes no sense. Thats like saying the government is going to make a bunch of unattainable rules. When we cannot attain the rules, we must beg for forgiveness and hope it doesn't happen again which it will. Why not just make rules that are attainable, or make a being that can attain these goals you create?

No, I believe that God wants to make people that choose him of their own freewill. He made the angels as servants or “yes men”, possibly this time he was trying to make something different. Someone that would believe in him based only on faith, and be willing to follow him loyally even in the face of death, and do so of their own free will. There are as many theories on why God did things the way he did as there are people in this world, so to me it all comes down to this: God did what he had to do to achieve the results that he wanted to achieve, it’s the will of God.


If religion is about treating your neighbor as you would like to be treated, then god would be a hypocrite

First off, we got ourselves into this situation not God. Secondly, God is of a different station then us, he is not our equal or our neighbor, he is our Creator. I have no problem in acknowledging there is something superior to us humans, but I guess you have difficulty with that concept.


Tell me, would it make sense to break a creation for the fact you told it to do something you knew it could not do?

This would again go into the area of it being a test to see who will follow of their own free will.


I think you’re still very hung up on the grace law thing so maybe this will help you some:

I once had a pastor ask me “how much of the bible is Grace and how much is Law”. My first response was to start looking at how much literally was written about grace and how much about the law. After wasting about a half a day on this, it dawned on me that it was a trick question. You see the entire Bible, in its very existence, is an act of grace. God’s grace gave us his word. Man really cannot do much about his ultimate fate, it comes down to the grace and will of God. That is very hard to accept sometimes, doubly so for men how are used to thinking of themselves as the masters of their own fate, but it is true. There is really very little you can control when you get right down to it.



posted on Jan, 31 2007 @ 01:01 AM
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Originally posted by GreatTech
if it not were for Catholicism, there would be no Christianity. Catholicism was the first Christian religion.


You need to study a bit of religious history friend. The Churches that Paul and John of Patomos were writing to existed well before Constantine was an impure thought in his fathers head. Rome was still a pagan state ruled by Caesars, and Caesar God worship. In fact, that is why the seven churches mentioned in Revelation are very specific, as each had a temple to Caesar in their city.


Originally posted by GreatTech
Catholics wrote the Bible.

No they did not, the old testament came from both the Septuagint Greek translation, compiled in Egypt at Alexandria, and from the Masoretic text. The New Testiment was compiled from various writings that existed back when Rome was still feeding the Lions Christian flavored cat food.


Originally posted by GreatTech
Catholics wrote the Bible. Catholics have created systems that have benefitted billions of people worldwide.


Yeah that is why Rome is the Beast mentioned as the Fourth Beast in Daniel and the First beast in Revelations. Even Rome herself does not dispute this fact, in accepting the School of Preterism they admit that the seven-headed beast is the Seven Hills of Rome herself. They just like to say that it only applied to Nero, when in fact, it applies to the Pontifex Maximus, a position of leading the pagan churches held by the Caesars at first, but later they shortened the title to the Holy Pontiff. This is the “little Horn” on the beast in Daniel. Look up the power of the station of the Pontifex Maximus and compare them to the powers of the “little horn” and you will see a direct match.


[edit on 1/31/2007 by defcon5]



posted on Jan, 31 2007 @ 02:42 AM
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why? What the logic behind making man obsolete to the rules, knowingly?

I am not sure I understand what your saying, but my guess is that all things made by God have to live under grace, including the angels. This is because they are lesser beings and inherently not as perfect as God is.


No by this description sin always existed, and always has existed since the dawn of man. If Living under gods grace mean no sin, then after christs death there was no sin again.

No, man has to choose to accept grace, it’s a reversal of the choice made by Adam and Eve who chose to live under the law.


Or that if you except jesus as your savior that sin no long applies to you, according to this description. Sin has always exist as long as man/religion has existed.

Yes sin continues to exist, but your correct, when you’re under the umbrella of grace and ask for forgiveness then sin no longer applies to you, the dept was covered by the blood of Christ.


Apparently, you would live a selfish lifestyle if it were not for god.

No, I would not either, but most people that I come into contact with on a daily basis seem to be all about that lifestyle. All I see is “me first, my kids better, I’m special, etc” attitudes around all the time, and it only seems to be getting worse.


Caught a typo. I meant that the effects of not following the 10 commandments in the short term is usually always negative. In the long term following the commandments may cause more negative effects then positive though.

Oops, sorry.
I don’t see how helping, caring for, and treating others well, could in the long term have a negative effect other then possibly over population. However if people truly lived a simple God fearing lifestyle then the planet could probably hold a lot more people with no ill effects. It tends to be greed, especially corporate greed that is consuming everything on the planet.


Would I go to hell, possibly, I am unsure, and I don't know if it would be my damnation.

You know that hell is a controversial subject even amongst Christians; the Jews don’t even believe in it, they simply believe that the worse you are the further you are placed from the presences of God. Again if you accept Grace then your actions have no effect on you spiritually if you truly repent them. If you want to base things on law/works then killing someone makes no difference as you have already sinned and are at the moment lost, doing additional sins is not going to make you more lost.

Now you cannot keep doing something that is wrong intentionally and say that you truly repent it, as you obviously don’t.


But for me to go against my principles because I don't want to go to hell

What kind of thing do you think would violate your principals by doing good or what’s right? If you mean the bit about someone killing a family member, as a Christian no one would hold self defense against you. Doubly so risking your life defending another innocent person. That would actually be considered an act of ultimate sacrifice and no greater love has a man then he make that kind of sacrifice.


Thats fear. I will not fear as it will be my true damnation.

If you’re trying to tell me you fear nothing, I ain’t buying it. Everyone has some fears.


If you are being torn apart from the inside, it doesn't matter how perfect the love and heaven that surround you is, you will still be in hell for eternity. I will not let that happen to me. Being torn apart from the inside is the worst feeling that can be felt, and it can only be caused by you.

It could be caused by an external event beyond your control, I don’t care who you are you cannot control everything.


More enforcing of the idea that god see's fair as "you do what I say, and like it". If thats fair, I have no reason to respect such a being. I will not treat myself as a slave, servant, or dirt simply because of what I came into existance as.

We rebelled against God, we screwed up, not him. Again:

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Who are you as the pot shard to be telling the potter this or that?

Why should God show us love or respect, we rebelled, we rejected him. It’s amazing that he still does love us and offers us grace; it’s an incredible gift that he did not even extend to his own angels that fell.


I will respect myself, and any one who cannot respect me for who I am, even my creator, does not deserve respect. Treat as you would like to be treated right? If god shows me no respect because I am not like him, I should do likewise according to the golden rule of religion.

Again your comparing sinful rebellious beings to a sinless perfect creator, you cannot expect him to respect us in that manner. God loves us like we are his children, but does a parent really respect their children? Do they go to their children for advice? Respect their knowledge or wisdom? No! Why because the parent is the one in command not the child, even though the parent loves the child. God made hierarchies in nature, so of course there is a hierarchy in other things as well, and I am sorry only God is on the top block of that pyramid. You seem to not understand that we are not equal with God, we are inferior to God but superior to the angels.


well I personally believe in the tree branching theory that everything is happening at once. God knows all because he can see all possible branches, for all possible actions. This does not mean YOUR life is determind, just that he knows where its headed, and every possibly choice you can make.

That theory is as good as any, but God can also effect things as well, so can the fallen angels.
For instance if you look up the bit about the potter above, the section right before that it mentions how God hardened the heart of Pharaoh so he could show the Israelites that he was their one true God.


Salvation is from an external source. It doesn't come to be within you. It is given from god, thus external. Im not talking just physical here. Im talking about anything that does not come to be within you.


well its external in that it has to involve the Holy Spirit somehow acting upon you, but he is going to act upon your heart which is internal.


[edit on 1/31/2007 by defcon5]



posted on Jan, 31 2007 @ 12:33 PM
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Originally posted by defcon5
If you look at the things that the Commandment tell us not to do, they are pretty much all things you don’t want people to do to you. Murder, Theft, Telling lies about someone, sleeping with their wife, etc.


And I live around some people who do not care if you were to kill them. They have no care about anything. They do whatever they feel like because they don't care if it happens to them. You steal from them, they will just steal more. They don't care. Some people don't care if it happens. Stop acting as though everyone feels and thinks like you do.



When Moses wrote the Ten Commandments, it was before Christ died on the Cross, so the Israelites were living under the Law at that time. The Jews have thousands more laws then the Ten Commandments, as they do not accept Christ they still believe they are going to reach salvation through works, Christians believe in Salvation through Grace.


That doesn't answer my question of why he did not just make us with these laws if these laws were what he intended of us. You convienently found a way around the question by twisting it. Answer the question of why god didn't create us with these rules if they were what he intended of us. Trusting the word of any man, even the one who claims he knows god word, is a heavy risk. Trust yourself and what you believe. Man is indeed tempted toward"sin" so why do you trust mans word?



Problem being that sin is always the easier and more enticing path, so it is the path most trodden. Again, though you need to stop worrying that becoming a Christian is going to in some way impede your lifestyle, I mean that is really what this is all about, right?


No it just doesn't agree with everything I believe. Im not going to call myself christian or anything else if it doesn't fit me to the T. If I would do certian things different then what the religion says, then Im not part of that religion. I won't change my principles to fit a religion. If man is more likely to sin, why do you trust his word that he has the word of god when he has so much to gain from it. I am not talking about christ, but the people who made the religion based upon him.



Your still stuck on works…its salvation through grace not works lest any man should boast.


I am not stuck on anything. I believe in salvation through understanding. God understands, which is why he forgives, not because hes in a good mood or because he is being generious.



Fear of the reaction of society against them, and that is all that really stops them from doing anything that any whim sets them too.


wow, thats very arrogant and ignorant of you. Arrogant to think that you know this. And ignorant because its so wrong. Its called principles. We follow them not out of fear of society or fear or fear of god. We follow them out of our understanding as to why its not beneficial to do so. The problems it would cause would in most cases not be worth it, thus we would not do it.

There are certian things I don't do because of fear of being caught but a matter of principles. You appear to be some one who is not true to himself. You are the one who fears the reaction of society against them. I do what I do on principle, and let the reaction be as it may. You go against your own will because of fear from something, whether it be god or society. So in a sense you are saying, you have a lack of principle. Since you say fear of repercussion is the only reason that athiests don't do these "sins", and you are looking at it from your own perspective, you obviously believe without god or society you would have no principles.

Well I have principles I follow, whether god exist or not and whether society holds repercussions for that action or not.



No what I mean is a person that can pretty much do what they want, it leads into an increasing worse lifestyle.


If that person lacks any principles. This is a result of a lack of understanding or logical reasoning.



If you have the power or the money to do anything you want after awhile everything becomes boring and you seek wilder and wilder thrills. It becomes a downward spiral, which is why you see so many famous people have serious problems in their lives.


Those people who have the downward spirals are the fools who have no principles because they have no understanding of themselves or the things that exist around them. They don't understand anything, so they merely want what they do not have, in search they may understand something more when they achive it.



Fear of God is not the same thing as fear.


That it is. A fear for your life after death. You fear because of repercussions from disobeying.



God is complex beyond your wildest imagination.


Actually god is rather simple. He would not make things more complex then they need to be as there becomes no point to such a thing. The simplest route is often the best route.



God Is Changeless

that makes god more simple, not less.


God Is All Powerful

this has nothing to do with complexity


God Is All Knowing

This makes him complex to US. To god though, everything is now simple because of this. God now knows the easiest route to choose for every choice, thus simplifying everything to its most efficent form.


God Is Everywhere

nothing to do with complexity


God Is eternal
God Is Holy
God Is Righteous
Just to name a few…
You could not even stand in the face of God. This is why he never appears in person to those in the Bible, and appears to Moses as a burning bush.


See this is your problem. You believe because you cannot understand it, that it must mean it is vastly to complex beyond any ones imagination. Just because it is complex to you, does not mean it is complex. Complexity is relative to the person or thing viewing it. God is the highest being, thus to god, it is simple. Being simple, god would great things in its most simple form. God wouldn't overcomplicate something.



Mainly because it’s a matter of perspective. For example its not right for you to kill yourself as that is the sin of self murder, but it is ok for God to allow you to die as he created you to begin with.

I guess it comes down to the same thing a parent would tell you: “When you create the Universe you can set it up anyway you want, but as long as you live under my universe you have to obey my rules”…


Comparing the flaws of man to god? Sorry but you yourself said god is flawless. This is very much a flaw in character. Again if I knew that taking my life would save my child, I would do it because the child comes first. I don't much care if its a sin or not, its who I am and always will be.

I could say I'm christian and avoid what I believe I should do, but that would only make it certian I go to hell after death.




I am sure that there is a very complex reason and a very complex plan but then end solution is very simple, again its salvation through grace.


Why, because you can't understand it? Is that why it must be so complex? If I can see a more simple solution to life, then god has already thought of it and I am either right or there is any even simpler way to life. Saying it must be complex because god is complex in comparison to you is narrow minded. God is more complex then you thus he can create a solution to the problem which is much more simple then your solution, if there is one.

God made it as simple as possible because he is as complex as possible. Such complexity allows him to create things and solve things more simple then we can. Perhaps there is nothing more simple then the conclusion I have came to, and perhaps there is a more simple solution. It is much like math, the most simple solution is the most used because its the most efficient.



I have come to terms on what it is that I believe it to involve, but I would not expect anyone else to believe exactly what I believe. There are just some things that you need to figure out for yourself and that is one of them.


Exactly, nobody is expected to believe what you believe, and it should stay that way. There are things I am figuring out for myself, and just because they don't come to the same conclusion as your does not mean they are less.



But again it would not be wrong for you to do with it as you wish, its your creation after all.


Thats where your wrong. It would be wrong. Maybe not to god, and maybe not to any other external source, but to ME it would be wrong, thus it would be wrong regardless of what is told. You are not understanding what it means to have principles and self morals. You say "as long as its ok with god then its ok" where for me that doesn't work. Just because its ok with god doesn't mean I will have a clear conscience about it. You need to understand that I can do more damage and make myself suffer more pain then any external source. Only I can make myself feel guilt, so I must live up to myself. If I don't, no amount of heaven will ever get me out of the hell I would have put myself in.



posted on Jan, 31 2007 @ 01:06 PM
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I am not sure where you concluded that Christians try to become God, or that I specifically am trying to play God. Either way it’s incorrect.


because you try to live life flawless. You try to come as close as you can to being like god, and you have never stopped. The rules you follow, are made in the image of god. You are trying to be as much like god as you can. When you fail, which you will because you are no god, you need forgiveness for that failure. You are trying to be like god.



Christians and Jews believe that God made man in his image, but that means man has an eternal spirit and soul, also that man has the capacity for the word or speech.


The commandments and other rules you follow are the rules of god, or the character of god. They were also made in gods image. You said these things yourself. The commandments cannot be followed and we are bound to fail. We are bound to fail because we are imperfect, and the laws are perfect. That means that by attempting to follow the commandments, you are attempting to be like god to the best of your ability, knowing you will fail. Why not just be yourself?



Anything that falls outside of the perfection or grace of God is a flaw or a sin. Angels can enter the presence of God, so obviously there are other things that are without sin. Once an angel sins though he’s out, like Satan, and is cast out of the presence of God. You know what really ticks off fallen angel’s the fact that God will not forgive them and grant them grace like he has man, that is why they work here to stop others from accepting it. There is a reason for this, IMHO, and it goes along with what I believe is the complex plan I was talking about above.


Ok so now that you did not answer the question at all, lets try this again. What makes god perfect? Dont tell me a lack of any flaws, because the circle logic is a waste of time. God is perfect because of his traits. Why are his traits the perfect traits then? Try to fall out of the circle logic you are entrapt in currently.



They were made for the jews in the days before the coming of the messiah, Christians don’t follow most of the rules anymore, with the exception of the ten commandments, which we try and follow.


why? Why do you try to follow the rules?



No, I believe that God wants to make people that choose him of their own freewill. He made the angels as servants or “yes men”, possibly this time he was trying to make something different. Someone that would believe in him based only on faith, and be willing to follow him loyally even in the face of death, and do so of their own free will. There are as many theories on why God did things the way he did as there are people in this world, so to me it all comes down to this: God did what he had to do to achieve the results that he wanted to achieve, it’s the will of God.


He was indeed trying to make something different. He made a bunch of puzzle pieces, and hoped each would play as their individual piece in the puzzle. If each played the piece they were created as, then the picture would become whole, and things would be as they were suppose to. If a piece tries to become something its not, or that piece attempts to become a puzzle in itself, it will fail as that was not its point for creation.

If was made different then the other pieces, and made imperfect for a reason. It was not to attempt to become perfect, or any other bit. It was made as that piece to find its way into fitting into the puzzle so that it could make the picture whole. We are each a puzzle piece. We are not meant to make the same choices. We are not meant to be perfect. We are meant to find our place in the puzzle. To figure out which piece we are, then get there. That makes more sense then some mysterious super complex explaination.

God is more complex then us, and therefor can create things more simple then we can. I may not have found the most simple explaination, but I found something much more simple then the one religion proposes, and the more simple it is, the more likely it is to be true.



First off, we got ourselves into this situation not God. Secondly, God is of a different station then us, he is not our equal or our neighbor, he is our Creator. I have no problem in acknowledging there is something superior to us humans, but I guess you have difficulty with that concept.


I have no difficulty with accepting there is something superior, I have resentment for being treated as such though. Do you treat a retarded person like he owes you something simply because you are superior to that person? No, you are aware that you are superior because you were born normal while that person was not, but that does not mean you treat that person as less. You treat them as you would anyone else because its a matter of understanding. You understand that this person was dealt the hand s/he was given and can do nothing about it. You don't hold it against him/her nor treat them as less because of it.

God is more understanding then any one or anything, thus he understands us, in our position. Because of this understanding he treats us as equal. Not because he is equal but because he chooses to do so. He treats us equal because he understands and that understanding leads to a connection. Such a connections leads him to forgive us for our wrongdoing. His understanding is the reason for his forgiveness and the reason why he treats us as equal. When I say equal, I mean equal respect. He respects us as we respect him. He doesn't respect us because we are actually equal, but because he is connected with us and understands us. He relates to us, and we exchange respect.

He doesn't have to respect us, but he knows already that giving respect develops a relationship, and thats what we are hoped to make with god...a relationship between us and god. A connection. Such a connection is only made when you have mutual respect for eachother. That respect doesn't come from actual equality, but understanding. God understands all, thus understands us.



This would again go into the area of it being a test to see who will follow of their own free will.


You create something to see if it will follow you to the point it knows it will fail? Your description of god sound like a person who is on a powertrip and wants to see what this power is capable of. I sure hope god is not as you explain as such a god I would not want to know.



I think you’re still very hung up on the grace law thing so maybe this will help you some:

I once had a pastor ask me “how much of the bible is Grace and how much is Law”. My first response was to start looking at how much literally was written about grace and how much about the law. After wasting about a half a day on this, it dawned on me that it was a trick question. You see the entire Bible, in its very existence, is an act of grace. God’s grace gave us his word. Man really cannot do much about his ultimate fate, it comes down to the grace and will of God. That is very hard to accept sometimes, doubly so for men how are used to thinking of themselves as the masters of their own fate, but it is true. There is really very little you can control when you get right down to it.


This is a matter of philosophy. You believe that everything is predestined. I believe everything is happening at once, as time is nothing but man made concept. Time is relative and nothing more then imagined. This is equally hard for people to accept as time is one of the most basic things they have come to know it life. Everything experience time right? Well no, not everything. At the end of the day anything that has to do with a timeframe can be manipulated. Any outcome can be changed, without having ever actually changed. I will not go indepth with this.

What I will say is that everything is predestined to happen as it is currently happening now.

And as a side note, I don't believe in the bible whatsoever. Anything that has come from the mouth of pen of man is not something I consider a reliable source when talking of god.

[edit on 31-1-2007 by grimreaper797]



posted on Jan, 31 2007 @ 01:48 PM
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Originally posted by defcon5
I am not sure I understand what your saying, but my guess is that all things made by God have to live under grace, including the angels. This is because they are lesser beings and inherently not as perfect as God is.


again it sounds as though you are describing a powerful man on a power trip exercising his power, not a god. That is why I have such a problem with religion, because the god they describe is to human like to be a god. Treating something as less simply because it is not as superior to you is a flaw. God is flawless, thus he does not treat you as less because you are not as superior to god. God is understanding, so he understands you and your position. That understanding leads to a connections which leads to a mutual respect, which leads to a relationship between god and the person.

Its a friendship, not a dictatorship.



No, man has to choose to accept grace, it’s a reversal of the choice made by Adam and Eve who chose to live under the law.


No because adam and eve were imperfect. They sinned before they attempted to live by the rules and under grace. They were human, thus imperfect, thus they sinned even before they went to the garden of eden. Unless you are saying man was perfect before the garden of eden which is inaccurate so I will discard that idea.



Yes sin continues to exist, but your correct, when you’re under the umbrella of grace and ask for forgiveness then sin no longer applies to you, the dept was covered by the blood of Christ.


Well I must say thats rather rediculous. You still sin, you are still imperfect, nothing has changed other then acknowledgement of the sin and remorse of the sin, which I will get to in a moment.



No, I would not either, but most people that I come into contact with on a daily basis seem to be all about that lifestyle. All I see is “me first, my kids better, I’m special, etc” attitudes around all the time, and it only seems to be getting worse.


Ok and what does that have to do with you? If there were no god, and you would be the same person, you are acting on your own principles. If you would act differently, you are acting on external factors, which I politely disagree with doing.



Oops, sorry.
I don’t see how helping, caring for, and treating others well, could in the long term have a negative effect other then possibly over population. However if people truly lived a simple God fearing lifestyle then the planet could probably hold a lot more people with no ill effects. It tends to be greed, especially corporate greed that is consuming everything on the planet.


I don't expect you to understand. Its all hypothetical, nothing is garenteed. But there is the possiblity that you saving a person will lead to the murder of 1 million people. Whether or not that was intended I believe is decided by the type of person you are. We don't know the results of our actions, and to think that there is any definately positive action is naive. No action will cause no negative effects. There is only an action that will cause the most positive effects. It won't be 100% positive, but there is an action that will overall be more beneficial then any other actions taken. You action may lead to then death of 50 and the saving of 1 millions. That may be the most beneficial possible outcome, so if you made the choice which lead to that outcome then you made the correct choice.

The problem is we neither know the future, nor the possibilities of our actions. That is why we cannot act of such things. We act on ourselves because god made us specifically for that reason. He knew that we cannot consciously know which decision is the best to make, but we can figure out which decision we would feel most comfortable with. Thats why he made us each have certian comforts and principles, certian aspects.

If god is making a bunch of people he intends to do negative things, maybe that is a sign that some offsetting is attempting to occur. So many people went against their own personal principles and beliefs that he is trying to counter balance it to get this back on track.



You know that hell is a controversial subject even amongst Christians; the Jews don’t even believe in it, they simply believe that the worse you are the further you are placed from the presences of God. Again if you accept Grace then your actions have no effect on you spiritually if you truly repent them.


There we go. This is what I want to address. That I cannot repent what I do, even if god says its a sin. I don't regret it, and I would do it again. I did it because it is who I am, and I made the decisions in the first place for a reason. I didn't make a mistake, I forfilled who I was intended to be. Theres no repenting for being who I was created to be.



What kind of thing do you think would violate your principals by doing good or what’s right? If you mean the bit about someone killing a family member, as a Christian no one would hold self defense against you. Doubly so risking your life defending another innocent person. That would actually be considered an act of ultimate sacrifice and no greater love has a man then he make that kind of sacrifice.


then in a sense it doesn't matter if I am christian or not, because I will still do the same actions regardless. If my principles are viewed as the right thing, then fine. If they are viewed as the wrong thing...then fine. My principles are a result of who I am. Im not going to put up every principle I have as principles vary from situation. Just because I would save some one in one situation does not mean I would save some one in another situation.



If you’re trying to tell me you fear nothing, I ain’t buying it. Everyone has some fears.


I get nervous, but it is different then fear. I get nervous as a result of anticipation for what is about to happen. Fear is an instinct of self preservation. I don't follow it because I have consciousness to figure out whether or not it is right for me to stay or not. Fear was to keep us out of danger, but I must use my consciousness now as some situations I must put myself in danger to stand for my principles.



It could be caused by an external event beyond your control, I don’t care who you are you cannot control everything.


No but you do control yourself. And no, it cannot be caused by an external event beyond your control because then you would not be at fault. If I fail, I did everything I could and I can live with that. If I did not try, I cannot live with that. Not in this life or the next.



Who are you as the pot shard to be telling the potter this or that?


I think I have explained myself on this already. God doesn't respect me because he has to, he chooses to. Its more beneficial. You believe god views things like a man would, and he doesn't. He doesn't say "you are less then me, so why should I listen to you", he would say "even though you are less then me, I would like to know what you have to say" and he would listen. He doesn't have to, but he chooses to because its more beneficial to do so. It creates respect and a connection.



Why should God show us love or respect, we rebelled, we rejected him. It’s amazing that he still does love us and offers us grace; it’s an incredible gift that he did not even extend to his own angels that fell.


When did I reject him? God hold it against the individual for the action done by ancestors? Again some view of man that god does not carry. God looks at a person as a person, not a race. You are an individual, and have no logical reason to be punished for what you have not done, but the ignorance of other have done. God further understand our actions, and does not hold such things against us. He doesn't hold us in contempt for doing him wrong.

If some one steals from you, and you find out, you are angry at them. You may forgive them, but you still remember it and look at them as a stealer. That is a characteristic of man. If you stole from god, he would not be angry at you. He may disagree with you, but none the less he would not be angry. He would look at your reasoning, and either say "I can see why you did this, and it was of good reason" or he will say "I can see why you did this, but it was of poor reasoning, and went against the person I created. It was not who I made you to be, but I forgive you if you will realize that this was not what I intended for you."

Why? Because god will always understand our actions. The difference is whether or not he intended us to do those things. US meaning the specific individual. The person may have rebeled because he felt people were twisting the belief of god. God will understand why he did it, whether or not he intended it, because god understands all. God may say that he did not intend that of him, thus he was in the wrong, or for reasons we cannot understand now he DID intend that for this man and this man was acting according to how he was suppose to.

This person was a puzzle piece. We looked at this puzzle piece and saw the horn to the devil. We accused him of representing what was wrong. When the puzzle becomes complete, we may see it was not the horn of the devil, but a ram sitting on a mountian, along with other animals, coexisting with eachother in peace as a part of the puzzle god has created. What we see may not be what it is because our limited view. God knows the picture of the puzzle, we do not. We cannot judge a piece of that puzzle as wrong because we do not know the whole picture, or even enough of it to say whether that piece is in the right place or not.

I hope my metaphor makes sense to you.



posted on Jan, 31 2007 @ 02:05 PM
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Again your comparing sinful rebellious beings to a sinless perfect creator, you cannot expect him to respect us in that manner.


And you are again describing the flaws of man. You are describing the type of person on a powertrip, not a god.



God loves us like we are his children, but does a parent really respect their children? Do they go to their children for advice? Respect their knowledge or wisdom? No! Why because the parent is the one in command not the child, even though the parent loves the child.


You must have had a sucky child hood. My one parent, who I respect immensely treated me as equal. Was I equal? No. Am I equal to him now? No. That wasn't the point though. A relationship was formed because he showed me respect. Not a respect of wisdom or knowledge, but a respect as a person. A respect of being an individual and having my own way of viewing things. It may not have been perfect in his eyes, but he did understand that I cherished the fact I could think for myself. He respected that and treated me in a way where it allowed me to grow.

My other parent treated me without respect. I do not respect her, nor do I love her. The respect I am talking about has nothing to do with wisdom or knowledge, but respect as an individual.

Do you have a disrespect for anyone who is not as superior as you? Thats unfortunate if true. I respect all life, regardless of intelligence and wisdom, as all life I realize has its own viewpoint. Its own perspective and its own principles. The respect that I am my own person, and you are your own person, creates a mutual respect which develops a relationship. Do you have a relationship, a good relationship, with anyone who has no respect for you? God and his children are meant to have a relationship with eachother, thus he has respect for us, as it is a key to any relationship.



God made hierarchies in nature, so of course there is a hierarchy in other things as well, and I am sorry only God is on the top block of that pyramid. You seem to not understand that we are not equal with God, we are inferior to God but superior to the angels.


and It is very apparent that you are limited to your own view. You do not understand the meaning of real respect, nor do you have respect for things in life. There is indeed a hierarchy, but if you understand respect and have a relationship with god and the world around you, then you realize that in this hierarchy in nature, you respect the lower beings, even though you are superior. I respect the bugs in nature, not because they are superior to me, but because I understand that they have their place, they act on that, and do the best they can. That is a respect for life, which is something you don't understand yet it seems.



That theory is as good as any, but God can also effect things as well, so can the fallen angels.
For instance if you look up the bit about the potter above, the section right before that it mentions how God hardened the heart of Pharaoh so he could show the Israelites that he was their one true God.


*sigh* you apparently dont get the theory. It means that even if god intervened, there would just be more branches, and the branch he intervened with would still exist. It would not change anything other then the amount of branches. Its a rather hard theory to understand, and hopefully physics will be able to prove it one day, as it is very possible.



well its external in that it has to involve the Holy Spirit somehow acting upon you, but he is going to act upon your heart which is internal.


No it is the Holy Spirit which touches you, then you decide to change. You make the choice to change, the only spirit doesn't force it upon you.

Internal change is when you look at yourself and change. External is when something not from within you comes and changes you. I believe god already acted upon you to be who you are. From there, allowing an external source to change you is to say god made a mistake of you and now you have to adapt to correct gods mistake. That it not possible as god does not make mistakes. God didn't make a mistake, so obviously he made me this way for a reason.



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