For Those Of You Who Do Not Think The Border Issue Is Important

Mods, if this need to be moved,please do so. I am placing it here for now because I think it is very important...

I have noticed here at ATS that many of the threads that deal with the border issue doesn't really get the response that it deserves.. While it generally gets some posts,it doesn't range anywhere near what it should. There should be an active thread on this issue at all times... Yes, it's that important.

Anyway,here is the point I am going to make. For those who seem to think, quite naively in my opinion, that this is a non-issue, let me say a few things.

This is an issue that surpasses that whole "race card" that so many want to turn this into. It's not about being anti-hispanic at all. It's about being genuinely concerned about the future of America.

When I post something about sealing up the borders, it's not only to keep out hispanic illegal immigrants;it's about keeping out all illegal immigrants. I don't care if the come from Mexico,Canada, Taiwan,Egypt,Saudi Arabia or Bangladesh, if they can't abide by the laws of the United States of America... Guess what? THEY SHOULDN'T BE HERE If they come here Illegally, guess what? THEY SHOULDN'T BE HERE. It's really that simple.

Now, there is a thread here about Minutemen be "domestic terrorists." What? I have never heard such garbage in all my born days. How is it that they are "domestic terrorists" when they are trying to doing the job that our "fearless" leaders are supposed to be doing?

However, there are many on this board that are more than willing to lay that label on the minutemen. Firstly, it profoundly shows these people's lack of understanding as to what a domestic terrorist really is. A domestic terrorist is someone who set out to do harm to one's own nation. Umm, last time I looked, the minutemen were trying to do the exact opposite. They are trying to protect our borders. Yet, there are posters here, and even more amazingly politicians, generally of the Democratic party, that are all too quick to label minutemen "domestic terrorists." It's beyond ridiculous.

Let me ask all of you a question, how is America expected to continue to be able to take in the influx of illegal immigrants? Tell me, how??!! What are you going to do while your nation gets torn down to a third world nation? Whine and belly ache about how no one saw it coming? Please, it's obvious.. It's not too late to do something about it... However, it must be done soon.

[edit on 23-1-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

SpeakerofTruth,
Unfortunately the truth of the matter is that if you standup against illegal immigration, the media as well as special interest groups will automatically label you as a bigot and a racist.
Let me give you an example:
I spoke with a gentelman named Diaz who happens to be the head of the local chapter (Dallas) of LULAC. I questioned him as to what his definition of what illegal means, what a criminal is and how does he separate the two means when it comes to the illegal immigrant issue.
After a bit of hemming and hawing, Mr. Diaz stated that the laws that were being broken by the "illegal Immigrant" are essentially illegal. That the illegal immigrant is just trying to make a better life for themselves here in the US.
I told him that I was more than happy to welcome those immigrants who enter the US using legal means but I am 100% against those that come here illegally.
Mr. Diaz's response was to label my a racist. I kind of understand why he called me that. I have blonde hair and blue eyes. Unfortunately (for him) he did not realize that I am the only one in my family for two generations that looks like I do since my race is Cherokee. I gave him a copy of my IBA card that I use to identify myself to park rangers when I wish to go fishing since I do not need to buy a fishing or hunting license (federal law).
I then introduced him to my wife who is from South Korea.
When I asked him to repeat his accusation..... Mr. Diaz left fairly quickly.
Since many of the groups who are against taking action by the federal , state, or local goverments, against illegal immigrants do not have a leg to stand on in a legal stance, they have to fall back on the old race card to defend their position.
By the by, Mr. Diaz has been told to no longer speak to the media since he and LULAC came under fired because Mr. Diaz tried to liken the illegal immigrant issue to Selma as well as other african american hotspots of the 60's

Originally posted by kenshiro2012

After a bit of hemming and hawing, Mr. Diaz stated that the laws that were being broken by the "illegal Immigrant" are essentially illegal. That the illegal immigrant is just trying to make a better life for themselves here in the US.

My question to Mr. Diaz would have been by whose standards are the laws illegal ? We are a sovereign nation.. When it comes to citizenship,it is our decision as to what laws to present.

What's funny to me, people label the minutemen as a "bunch of redneck white guys." Boy, that goes to show their ignorance. There are hispanics that are members of the minuteman project. So, that claim does not fly.

My question to Mr. Diaz would have been by whose standards are the laws illegal ? We are a sovereign nation.. When it comes to citizenship,it is our decision as to what laws to present.

That is a question that has been asked over and over again but it seems that there is no answer to from these groups. Another asked that question recently to Mr. Diaz and the answer was that the laws governing legal entrance into the US are too restrictive and that the time to abide by the laws are lengthy. I know that it is difficult and time consuming when dealing with ICE (previously known as INS) it took a year in Korea to get my wife's visa (temporary), and then an additional 2 years for her to get her US citizenship.
After spending over 2 grand in fees, telephone calls to INS and trips to the "local" INS shop for her interviews, It took a call to a congressman to expedite her legal status.
I fully understand the imigrant's frustration at attempting to enter the US legally but that does not give them the right to ignore the law. If anything, LULAC as well as other groups should be spending their time and money in petitioning the US goverment to relax or streamline the process instead of promoting people to ignore the law.

Kenshiro, the whole "too restrictive" argument is garbage. At one point,I don't know if this is still the case or not, the U.S was taking in more immigrants than any other nation in the world. That argument doesn't cut muster with me... It didn't then, and it really doesn't now.

We are on the same page on that.
I am just parrotting what these groups have stated.
Like I said before, their arguments have been fairly weak which is why I am so surprised at their success in overturning laws restricting illegal behavior.

Originally posted by kenshiro2012
We are on the same page on that.
I am just parrotting what these groups have stated.
Like I said before, their arguments have been fairly weak which is why I am so surprised at their success in overturning laws restricting illegal behavior.

Oh,I know...I am just making a point in response to what these groups claim

Here is an excerpt from an article that I found:

In Congress, whose members are perfectly aware of and committed to the interests of their identical constituents, the following points are raised.

1) Immigration will create more competition in the (perfectly flexible) labor market, and therefore lower wages. Every American adult will suffer a drop in pay to $20,000 per year.

2) Cheaper labor and a larger domestic market will boost corporate profits. Profits, and therefore dividends, will double from 10% to 20% of stock market capitalization.

3) An increase in population will increase the size of cities by 50%.

Sound Good?

Now, while it can be argued,as the article itself states, that number two is a positive of an open borders policy, number 1 and 3 doesn't sound particularly attractive.

Are you willing to have a 20$,000 dollar drop in pay per year? Do you even make 20,000 dollars a year? Are you willing to have your city increase in size by 50%?

I suspect the answers to those questions would be in relation to circumstance. However, they are certainly questions that should be considered before we continue along the present course we are currently on.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
There should be an active thread on this issue at all times... Yes, it's that important.

No its not. We have far more pressing problems than illegal immigration. Illegal Immigration represents a lot of people, but its really not much of a problem. It certainly doesn't warrant the hysteria that surrounds it.

This is an issue that surpasses that whole "race card" that so many want to turn this into. It's not about being anti-hispanic at all.

I'll beleive that when we start building a wall on the candadian border.

That IS the border, after all, that islamist terrorists have been crossing. It also has large native american gangs that range freely through their reservations, smuggling illegal drugs from canada into american cities.

If they come here Illegally, guess what? THEY SHOULDN'T BE HERE. It's really that simple.

Yes, they shouldn't be here. No, its not really that much of a problem. Certainly wouldn't be worthwhile 'sealing the border' to prevent illegal immigration.

A domestic terrorist is someone who set out to do harm to one's own nation.

No. A terrorist is a person that seeks to harm people in order to influence
the government. A domestic terrorist merely does it in their own country.

Umm, last time I looked, the minutemen were trying to do the exact opposite. They are trying to protect our borders.

I want to say that I do not think that the Minute Men are terrorists of any kind, hell, they don't even carry weapons. Its absurd that people would label them as such.
However, you are merely saying that you agree with what they are doing, and thus they are not terrorists. That's nonsense. They're not terrorists, yes, but that's because they are going around killing people in order to influence the government.

Let me ask all of you a question, how is America expected to continue to be able to take in the influx of illegal immigrants? Tell me, how??!! What are you going to do while your nation gets torn down to a third world nation?

And why would this happen? Immigrants, legal or otherwise, especially from latin american nations, have excellent work ethics and produce large families. That is generally a good thing, it means lots of people willing to work hard to make money.

However, it must be done soon.

We don't need to do anything. Illegal Immigration isn't going to 'destroy america', its practically a non-issue. I agree that we need more security on our borders, because there are criminal gangs that operate on those borders, both on the Mexican and Canadian border. These gangs are powerful criminal enterprises, they are dangerous, they are similar to the mafia during prohibition, its decades later today and we've still got this organization, its infiltrated our trade unions and government, trafficks in drugs, and seems to be completely intractable. The criminal gangs on the mexican and canadian border need to be stopped to.

The single best way to do this is to make it extremely easy to become a citizen. This will pull the rug out from under these organizations and make the country more secure for decades to come.

Nygdan,well,if you think the border issue is a "non issue," then there is really no need in me addressing anything that you have said.. You've already got your mind made up... Let's see how your "all is fair and well" philosophy pans out in the long run... You're attitude is the attitude of the "leaders" we have in congress now.. We'll see,say twenty years down the road, whether you are correct or not... No sniffling now...

[edit on 24-1-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Today on the radio news, I heard an ILLEGAL was suing a Chicago radio station for refusing to award her a corvette she won. How many of you want to bet whe gets it....B.S. she will get it and damages. WTF is this country coming to.

1) The b*tch(sorry but I need to make a point) was here ILLEGALLY!! Whe has no rights, so she should not get it.

2) What pert of ILLEGAL does the ruling parties not understand. If I want to rob a bank I am going to JAIL. But if I'm an ILEGALL we will look the other way.

3) Plain and simple,, the laywer who is representing her, should turn her in so she can be deported. Not doing so, calls for instant disbarrment.

4) She has gone into hiding, fearing deportation. Her lawyer should have to give her up, or be jailed. She should be deported immefiately and all chatges should be dropped. But guess what...Some LIBERAL judge will get the case, find in her favor, and award the ILLEGAL damages.

It is time we stand up for our country. If you ome here legally WELCOME,, How can I help you fit in?

But Illegals....round them up and deport them.

1st...For those who say ILLEGALS do the jobs Americans don't want/ SIMPLE SOLUTION. There are millions of Americans sitting on their asses collecting a welfare check. Guess what, you want that check...You will work those jobs or any job. You will pick vegetables or fruit. The difference between your pay and the welfare check you get we will make up. You don't want to do the job, then you get nothing. I'll be damned if my tax dollars go to some piece of sh*t, who is sitting on their ass, doing nothing. You are willing to contribute to society, then I'm willing to help. If not, GOOD LUCK!!

2nd...For those who say we can't deport all ILLEGALS...I say BULLSH*T!!! Plain and simple. Give them 90 days to turn themselves in and be deported. IF not, anyone found here after that time will do those jobs Americans don't want. But they will not get paid. It will be a prison sentence. And once it is over and they are deported, they will NEVER be allowed to apply for citizenship! If they turn themselves in and voluntarily be deported, then they can go to the BACK of the line.

3rd...For those whinny LIBERALS who say this is unfair F.U. There are millions of homeless AMERICANS. Yet we all look the other way. We are more worried about the ILLEGALS than we are our own CITIZENS. It is time we take care of our own FIRST. Why do we not gather up the homeless, put them to work on the farms that ILLEGALS work. To say this is mean, well I say B.S. These farms house, feed, and pay ILLEGALS. Why not give that oppurtunity to our own citizens and give them a new start.

4th...Any of oUR own citizens who take this offer, I'm willing (and I'll bet others will be) to spend my tax dollars helping them better themselves, If they want. This way we have the labor force to do the work, while helping out our fellow CITIZENS. Some may wish to go no further,, but others will want to improve themselves. And here is a place I'm willing to have my tax dollars go. To help AMERICANS better themselves, not some ILLEGAL.

But guess what?!? Nobody in power has the BALLS to offer this simple solution. Why? Because Lobbyist and Special Interest will never let it happen. And more importantly, No congressman will let it happen, because it takes away thier power of playing people against each other. Congress is not there to serve the people, but to serve THEMSELVES. Why are they trying to take more and more from the people. The congress was set up to SERVE the people. Not LOBBYIST, not SPEIAL INTERESTS, but the PEOPLE. IT is time the PEOPLE stand up. Vote ALL of congress out of power, tell career politicians we don't need you. Bar Doctors, Laywers, Judges, or any elites from serving. Elect 435new House members and 100 new Senate members(Although, I think the 17yh ammendment to the constitution should be repealed, and let the State Govt choose their senators) And fill all 535 positions with the everyday JOE from AMERICA.

I would bet my last dollar that more good would get done for this country buy this way. Also impose term limits. And forbid anyone from running who has any previous ties to a congressperson. Is this perfect...HELL NO, but it will get more done.

80+ percent are against offering AMNESTY to ILLEGALS. Yet the Congress and more importantly the PRESIDENT are for it. While I voted for Bush, I would in a heartbeat support his Impeachment over ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION. I would throw his ass out without a second thought.

Besides terrorism,, ILLEGAL IMMAGRATION is the greatest threat to nationall security. We have MILLONS of INVADERS(Yes I call them Invaders) Coming across our southern border every year. I don't give a damn where these people are from, Mexico, Latin America, South America, or the Middle East. THIS NEEDS TO BE STOPPED. Again a simple solution exists. Put AMERICAN troops on the border. ANYONE TRYING TO CROSS ILLEGAL WILL BE SHOT ON SITE!!!!

HELL...Mexico's Govt encouages this. Maybe we need to say to Mexico...either you stop this, or we take you over and take all your natural resources....AGAIN, SIMPLE SOLUTION!

But again, this will mnot happen with the current political climate in this country. Those in Congress are more concerned about keeping their power than following the WILL of the people. Until we the PEOPLE (And this is a big leap, I mean all of us who are pissed off. Stand up. Nothing will happen)

I see 2 solutions....
1) Congress will finally get it's head out of it's ass and listen to the people.
or
2) A 2nd CIVILWAR is going to happen,, and congress won't have any choice, but to listen.

While I am hoping for the first option, I hope the AMERICAN people are preparing for the 2nd. I don't know if anyone here has read TERM LIMITS by Vince Flynn. BUt I can't help thinking how appropriate it seems in todays political climate.

Originally posted by Nygdan

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
There should be an active thread on this issue at all times... Yes, it's that important.

No its not. We have far more pressing problems than illegal immigration. Illegal Immigration represents a lot of people, but its really not much of a problem. It certainly doesn't warrant the hysteria that surrounds it.

Nygdan, I am really surprised that you do not believe that illegal migration is not a major issue. Globally it is. Whilst we have managed to stem the tide here in Australia (but for how long??) in other parts of the world they haven’t.

Countries battle this onslaught daily and once in the country it is very difficult to remove those who have entered the country via illegal means. They demand rights and support that often is not available to local citizens and they get it.

Our sovereign rights are no existent, we have no say on who arrives in our country and on so many fronts we are seeing the disintegration of the fabric of our societies.

Migration in general is a problem and at the risk of being labelled a racist if we were honest I believe this worries many, many people around the world. This isn’t a trivial issue at all.

SpeakerofTruth,
As a current resident of Texas, I understand your concern. I live in an apartment complex in Corpus Christi. For the past six months, a construction crew has been renovating the empty apartments. Each morning at 6:00 am, the crew gathers near my apartment. I hear absolutely no English spoken. Now the fact that they only speak Spanish could be a cultural thing or it could be that they simply don’t speak English. It does raise the question though, as to whether they speak no English due to their being illegal.

I can’t trust an illegal alien simply due to the fact that if they break that law, what other laws will they break? I have commented in this thread about the problems I have encountered dealing with the language barrier.

I have read many articles that were written about how some Mexicans want to take over Texas, Arizona and California. They claim that these states were taken away from them illegally and they intend to take them back. With all the talk of the NAU, it make me wonder if our government is trying to help them.

Originally posted by CSRules

1st...For those who say ILLEGALS do the jobs Americans don't want/ SIMPLE SOLUTION. There are millions of Americans sitting on their asses collecting a welfare check. Guess what, you want that check...You will work those jobs or any job. You will pick vegetables or fruit. The difference between your pay and the welfare check you get we will make up. You don't want to do the job, then you get nothing. I'll be damned if my tax dollars go to some piece of sh*t, who is sitting on their ass, doing nothing. You are willing to contribute to society, then I'm willing to help. If not, GOOD LUCK!

Welfare recipients already have to work a job in order to receive the welfare check. They have about ten years now. Shame someone did not tell you.

[edit on 1/27/2007 by Jessicamsa]

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Fixed quote

[edit on 14/2/07 by masqua]

Originally posted by darkelf
I have read many articles that were written about how some Mexicans want to take over Texas, Arizona and California. They claim that these states were taken away from them illegally and they intend to take them back. With all the talk of the NAU, it make me wonder if our government is trying to help them.

Well, yeah, that's one of the goals of groups like LA RAZA and such. They are not, nor do they have any desire to be, of any benefit to our nation.
By the way, I am talking about groups like LA RAZA, not hispanics in general.

Look, hispanics are some of the nicest ,hardest working people there are. However, if they can't abide by our lawsa nd regulations, then they have no business here. I am sorry, that is just the way it is.

We are more worried about the ILLEGALS than we are our own CITIZENS. It is time we take care of our own FIRST. Why do we not gather up the homeless, put them to work on the farms that ILLEGALS work. To say this is mean, well I say B.S. These farms house, feed, and pay ILLEGALS. Why not give that oppurtunity to our own citizens and give them a new start.

You know, that reminds me of a qute from a movie I watched. It's called American History X, a great movie. Watch it. It's a movie about how a hateful neo-Nazi turns his life around..Anyway, he made a statement in the movie that made a lot of sense. He said, "On the statue of liberty it says 'Give of us your tired,your weak and down trodden.' Well, it's Americans who are tired and weak, until you fix that, I say close the _ _ _ _ _ _ _ book!!"

I hate to say it, but I wholeheartedly agree with that sentiment.

There could be a conspiracy behind this as they say a divided house does not stand so what is going on? Order out of Chaos the American 1dollar bill coming to place?

Originally posted by The time lord
There could be a conspiracy behind this as they say a divided house does not stand so what is going on? Order out of Chaos the American 1dollar bill coming to place?

Well also, "Out of many, one." I tend to think this is more of a reference to the many states that makes up one nation, but, you could look at it from an ethnic standpoint of view as well,I suppose.

While it can be argued that diversity is our strength, I think we are about to ind it to be our greatest weakness.

The United States is not operating on unlimited cash flow. How are we going to continue to be a bane of courtesy to immigrants for another 20-50 years. I just don't see how our economy is goig to withstand it.

Some argue, well, with a greater population comes a greater economy. Uhhh, not if a large percentage of that population is sending the money they make back to their "homeland!!"

Originally posted by Nygdan
No its not. We have far more pressing problems than illegal immigration. Illegal Immigration represents a lot of people, but its really not much of a problem. It certainly doesn't warrant the hysteria that surrounds it.

So far, there's only one response that could actually throw this right back in your face Nygdan...


Illegal Immigration = National Invasion

Invasion doesn't necessarily have to mean "with military might".

invasion - look at the second definition. "something hurtful".

So you are telling me that illegal immigration of which American jobs are lost, leading to a lack of taxes paid, which leads to lack of educational help/transportation/etc........ can you see where I'm going with this? I'm certain that you can, because you appear to be an intelligent person. I'll help you out if you can't.... it's the proverbial snowball.

IMO, Bush & Co. will never seal the border with Mexico (using as a reference as that border is what comes to mind the majority of the time when immigration debates are sparked)... due to "economic warfare" that Mexico is using on the American people, with the assistance of the Legislative and Executive Branches of the United States Government.

Allow the immigration (illegally) and eventually the economy would be damn near worthless (not completely crumbled), and in order to salvage the "American Dream"... unite with Mexico so that they can as well be taxed... aiding in "repairing" the economy, or at least "revamping" the economy.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Look, hispanics are some of the nicest ,hardest working people there are. However, if they can't abide by our lawsa nd regulations, then they have no business here. I am sorry, that is just the way it is.

I live in Corpus Christi, Tx. That's just above the Mexican border. I know many hispanics and I know that their ethnic group, like any other, is composed of both good and bad. I am not racist and have no problems with legal immigration. It just galls me to see so many illegals working over here.

There is a construction contractor that has the contract to refurbish the apartments in my complex. He hires illegals, because they are willing to work for lower wages. If he hired legal citizens, he'd have to pay more. This is not a low paying job that most people won't do, it's construction.

This contractor is taking good paying jobs off the market so that he can make more money. If the government would crack down of employers like this, there wouldn't be a market for the illegals.