Russian missles delivered to Iran!

Originally posted by centurion1211
Well, when your own avatar seems like an insult, you reap what you sow, as they say, and should also mean you set your own standards for the "intelligence" of what you post somewhat higher.

I changed my Avatar for you mate As far as I know my country doesn't sell weapons, it exports the raw materials that could be turned into them but to say every country does this is a total fabrication of the truth and has a smell of Sean Hannity about it

Actually Centurion I will go out on a limb here and guess that you spend quite a bit of time watching Fox news.

Originally posted by centurion1211

Your avatar says you live in the U.K. So, exactly how does it matter to you whether the U.S. or the russians are selling weapons to anyone - as long as it's not the scotch, irish, or argentinians?

(Unlike some people on here) I'm not particularly blinded by nationalism; or if I am then it’s not enough to be delusional about any “current threats” from the Argentineans, Irish or indeed Scottish.

I have a nationalism but it’s not limited to the chunk of the land I happen to live on. My nationalism is firstly to the 5 English speaking nations, secondly to Western Europe, and thirdly to most of Eastern Europe, and 4thly to Westernised countries like Japan. The only thing they all have in common is that they are part of the Western world.
I have absolutely no guaranteed loyalty to any political party which happens to rule any of these territories. The only loyalty I have is to the people who live in them.

And as much as the stupidity (and wretchedness) of the current American government annoys me; I am wise enough to realise that the people of America have a habit of being born in God’s image; and their governments in the Devils.
I believe the problem rests in the fact that in every American election the people of America are confronted by one political organisation which controls two political parties. “DemoRep” by name DemoRep by nature; and in Britain I call it ConLab. Change is possible (unlike in say the Soviet Union). But it’s mighty slow; and so no surprise long overdue.

Ultimately all I care about is leaving this world a better place for my existence than without it (I figure it’s a good idea; not least because paranormal evidence has convinced me there must be an afterlife, and therefore a post death order).
And though I know there’s no guarantees (at least as long as the human brain finds it difficult to work out whether the death penalty is right or wrong, or if stem cell research is ok) I figure that’s its a good idea to try to leave the world a richer place, than not to try at all; so even if not individually, then at least on average this is a good aim for as many as possible to commit themselves too.

Therefore the idea I would support my block of land because it is my block of land, or oppose its political enemies because they are its political enemies is both simultaneously completely alien and laughable to me.
I support the West because I believe that for all its errors it is at the cutting edge of human civilisation; and no patriotism will turn me against the desire to correct whatever remaining errors it has (and there are plenty).
If I’ve been supportive of Russia in this thread it’s because I believe what I’ve said is correct (unless of course there is such a time when I may be convinced otherwise). I'm sorry to say it; but nationalism (in the way you seem to think of it) is to me a starting point of backwardness.

A libertarian society, with a liberalised economy, and a capitalist system, which sponsors the oppression of only those who wish to oppress others is what appeals to me.
It’s this concept I may some day wish to die fighting for; but in no way would I want to die for merely a government of a physical location, or a block of land I happened to grew up on. Obviously the greater the total surface area of what I perceive to be the West the happier I am; (unless of course someone could teach me this is somehow wrong). (Maybe in the case of jungle people it is).


[edit on 090705 by Liberal1984]

Originally posted by mazzroth


To use the logic Fox News and its neocon Bosses would offer us, it would of been wrong for the US to arm and try and defend itself against the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour back in 1941.

Not a good analogy here. Iran is interested in making sure US efforts are hampered, by instigating Shiite violence in order to destabilize Iraq. Money, training, weapons, intel, and advisors are coming into Iraq. It's not as if Iran is simply minding it's own business.

Originally posted by GT100FV
Not a good analogy here. Iran is interested in making sure US efforts are hampered, by instigating Shiite violence in order to destabilize Iraq. Money, training, weapons, intel, and advisors are coming into Iraq. It's not as if Iran is simply minding it's own business.

I will just refer you to what happend in Afghanistan in the 80's with RPG's and Stinger missiles finding their way to the Mujahadeen not to mention 3 Acronym based Agency's having Operatives there and having the dubious honour of training up Arabs there in how to take on super powers .

With this statement, you show your basic ignorance of the American people. Check a little deeper before posting further about any of us. And didn't your people receive democracy when the soviet union fell less than 20 years ago? Maybe you're younger than that and can't remember what it was like before you could say anything you want. People like living in freedom, they don't want to be slaves to a totalitarian government, It's that simple.

Yes I can remember how it was in SU,but U.S didnt play very big part in our freedom,we fight it by self!!As four people like living in freedom your right but U.S can not play a God and be the one who will give freedom!!People need to fight for freedom by it self! And we have NATO, and ANO who's from my point of wiew have bigger rights to play World Police!!!
Yes maybe im ignorant but i dont see any diference to live like a slave in totalitarian goverment or corrupted democracy goverment!!
And by the way how do you know that people in Iraq,Iran wants to live in freedom!!Did you spoke whit them??Or you just make it because you are living in democracy???I live next to Belarus and there i have been there several times!!You know there are totalitarian goverment but moust of people dony want to change that!!Ok they dont have so much McDonalds,Coca-cola, but you know they happy,because no foreign wiseman tell them how to live!!!



[edit on 18-1-2007 by swesais]

[edit on 18-1-2007 by swesais]

[edit on 18-1-2007 by swesais]

As usual this has turned into a Anti-US/Anti-those-that-are-Anti-US thread.

I think most people's points are that Russia aren't doing anything that hasn't been done before, but they are being demonised for it.

And as it has been said countless times, but no one has answered it; Why shouldn't Iran be allowed to defend themselves?

Originally posted by swesais
Yes maybe im ignorant but i dont see any diference to live like a slave in totalitarian goverment or corrupted democracy goverment!![edit on 18-1-2007 by swesais]

[edit on 18-1-2007 by swesais]

Originally posted by swesais

Yes maybe im ignorant but i dont see any diference to live like a slave in totalitarian goverment or corrupted democracy goverment!![edit on 18-1-2007 by swesais]

[edit on 18-1-2007 by swesais]

OMG. If you can't see the difference, then I may have to agree with your self assessment. Just a little help for you, though. If you were still living under a totalitarian government, we wouldn't be having this conversation - unless your government wanted you to, and then they would be telling you what to say to me. You wouldn't get to decide. See any difference? I'm sorry, but for you to say those kinds of things, you must have been born after the fall of the soviet union. Otherwise, you'd simply know better. I'm saying that because I do know people who were there before and after, and then they came here. Having freedom is like a religion to them now. If you don't understand that feeling, then I submit that you don't even know your own country's history. Sad if true.

Originally posted by mazzroth
As far as I know my country doesn't sell weapons, it exports the raw materials that could be turned into them but to say every country does this is a total fabrication of the truth and has a smell of Sean Hannity about it

Exporting weapons or just the raw materials to make them, kind of splitting hairs aren't you. No matter, my point was that any country will sell what ever it feels to in it's own national interest whether that's good for the rest of the world or not - your country included. And that's just "as far as you know". Sounds like you haven't researched this subject much, but you're heare ready to spew out what we now know are only your "educated" opinions and not necessarily facts.


FYI - I don't watch TV news as it's too out of date by the time they show it. My online news sources are CNN, MSNBC and wherever Drudge takes me. Pretty hard for anyone to claim bias with that lineup. Main point is that least I stay current on what's happening. Try losing the self -appointed arrogance and you might be someone worth discussing issues with.

Originally posted by Liberal1984

I have a nationalism but it’s not limited to the chunk of the land I happen to live on.
...

Obviously the greater the total surface area of what I perceive to be the West the happier I am; (unless of course someone could teach me this is somehow wrong). (Maybe in the case of jungle people it is).

[edit on 090705 by Liberal1984]

(applause)

What a fine speech! I feel so much more enlightened now that you've explained how my government works for me. Can't thank you enough for that. And when I say that
i'm more enlightened, that word should really be reserved for you, since you see how the world is so clearly and have this great vision for how it all should be. Unfortunately, perhaps you were born 500 to 1,000 years too soon. The world of today (the real world) doesn't work that way yet. And no amount of people carrying signs, mouthing platitudes, or holding candle light vigils for peace will change that in my or your lifetime. Nice to hope for, but currently unreachable. Why, because today, only the nice people want peace. And some of them naively think that by laying down their arms for protection, that the not so nice people will magically see the error of their ways and do the same thing. Sadly, that never happens. The not so nice people just decide that you're now easy pickings. This is true on a "micro" level - such as what is happening in the UK since personal ownership of firearms was banned (they're working on banning knives now!) and people could be prosecuted for defending their own homes and families. You're all easy pickings now. On the "macro" level (international), the same thing happens. I just saw a potical cartoon from the UK from the 1930's I think that showed two armed groups standing in front of a door marked "Disarmament Office". The caption simply said, "You first." That cartoon pretty much states the problem in bringing your utopian vison to reality. Both sides have to truthfully agree to lay down their weapons at the same time - and keep them down. In today's world, does anyone see that happening? Then there's the "truthful" part. There has to be a way to verify that it's really been done. That doesn't exist yet, either. North Korea, Iran and Iraq are cases in point. It's so easy to hide military activities inside a country, and then you'd be back to square one.

So, I say "yeah!" for your good intentions. Hopefully, in one of your next incarnations, you'll get to see that all take place. Meanwhile, the rest of us have to figure out how to stay alive in the world we have.

Originally posted by malganis

And as it has been said countless times, but no one has answered it; Why shouldn't Iran be allowed to defend themselves?

Very simple answer to that question.

Of course iran should be allowed to defend itself. It just doesn't need nuclear weapons and missiles capable of carrying them with over 1,000 mile ranges to defend itself.

Any country (iran) trying to obtain those technologies, and at the same time threatening neighboring countries with extermination cannot claim to be acting defensively.

Question answered.


[edit on 1/18/2007 by centurion1211]

Originally posted by centurion1211

Originally posted by malganis

And as it has been said countless times, but no one has answered it; Why shouldn't Iran be allowed to defend themselves?

Very simple answer to that question.

Of course iran should be allowed to defend itself. It just doesn't need nuclear weapons and missiles capable of carrying them with over 1,000 mile ranges to defend itself.

Any country (iran) trying to obtain those technologies, and at the same time threatening neighboring countries with extermination cannot claim to be acting defensively.

Question answered.


[edit on 1/18/2007 by centurion1211]

Ok by your well informed intelligent knowledge above I take it you agree the USA should totally deactivate all its Nuclear arsenal ? as it is the only country to regularly use radiocative wepaons against countries ( DU ) and oh it also regularly threatens countries with invasion. Do you think you have exclusive rights to being a bully ?.

[edit on 18-1-2007 by mazzroth]

Originally posted by mazzroth

Ok by your well informed intelligent knowledge above I take it you agree the USA should totally deactivate all its Nuclear arsenal ? as it is the only country to regularly use radiocative wepaons against countries ( DU ) and oh it also regularly threatens countries with invasion. Do you think you have exclusive rights to being a bully ?.

[edit on 18-1-2007 by mazzroth]

Sure. And there's a bumper sticker on all of my 23 SUV's that says "As a matter of fact, I do own the road".

IF the U.S. were in iran's situation I would say it has no need of nuclear weapons. If the situation were reversed (God help us) and iran was the superpower nation, I think I'd understand why they had the weapons. And if I truly was for peace and harmony in my region of the world, I'd want my country and president not to threaten to exterminate any neighboring countries.

Just curious, but did you mean your avatar name to be mazzaroth? As in the plan God gave Adam for mankind's redemption? If so, then you've got your work cut out for you.

[edit on 1/18/2007 by centurion1211]

Originally posted by centurion1211

Originally posted by swesais
Yes maybe im ignorant but i dont see any diference to live like a slave in totalitarian goverment or corrupted democracy goverment!![edit on 18-1-2007 by swesais]

[edit on 18-1-2007 by swesais]

Originally posted by swesais

Yes maybe im ignorant but i dont see any diference to live like a slave in totalitarian goverment or corrupted democracy goverment!![edit on 18-1-2007 by swesais]

[edit on 18-1-2007 by swesais]

OMG. If you can't see the difference, then I may have to agree with your self assessment. Just a little help for you, though. If you were still living under a totalitarian government, we wouldn't be having this conversation - unless your government wanted you to, and then they would be telling you what to say to me. You wouldn't get to decide. See any difference? I'm sorry, but for you to say those kinds of things, you must have been born after the fall of the soviet union. Otherwise, you'd simply know better. I'm saying that because I do know people who were there before and after, and then they came here. Having freedom is like a religion to them now. If you don't understand that feeling, then I submit that you don't even know your own country's history. Sad if true.

Believe me I know how it was before and after!!Ok, so now we had freedom whit all it beauty and so???Who cares??I can tell anyone what I think but who is interested in it??before I couldnt tell,and must fear for my living,but now it's in some way the same!!Russia is still dictating their will to us and there isn't verymuch what we can do!!And you know there is many people who is very dissapointed in your freedom.By freedom I mean your freedom whit capitalism,not working democracy,ignorance other people!

[edit on 19-1-2007 by swesais]

Originally posted by centurion1211
Then there's the well known fact that many of the IED's used to kill U.S. soldiers are being manufactured in iran.

[edit on 1/17/2007 by centurion1211]

Well, actually, your "well known fact" is wrong. Some IED's encountered by British Forces nr Basra are similar in design to IED's used by Hezbollah and the Palestinians, hinting that the technology may have been developed in Iran before being disseminated to it's proxies around the region, before finding it's way into the arsenal of the Insurgency in Iraq. The fact they were directly supplied by Iran is pure speculation....

Alot different than "the well known fact that many of the IED's used to kill U.S. soldiers are being manufactured in iran"..

Also, you argued that because Iraq used Chemical weapons in the 1980's (which the west supplied), then they must have had WMD in 2003, even though all reports are to the contrary and indicate that all Iraqi WMD were destroyed in the 1990's.

If you use that argument, ie; that because they had them in the 80's, they must have them now, then you must also assume that the UK has Chemical and Bio weapons.

After all, we used them from WW1, through the inter-war period (funnily enough, Churchill ordered that Iraqi rebels be gassed in the 1930's......), and tested them up to the 60's, so we must have them now, right? Wrong!!

Flawed logic you operate on Centurion, severely flawed logic.

It's almost like talking to a woman

OT: Good for Iran. These missiles may help them, but overall, a short-range SAM system is not going to save their bacon if the US decides to party. They have every right to defend themselves from aggression and I believe that whatever comes, they'll give us a bloody nose.

[edit on 19/1/07 by stumason]

Flawed logic you operate on Centurion, severely flawed logic.

It's almost like talking to a woman

Bullseye!!!!)