How to End the War? Start the Draft

Originally posted by HarlemHottie

Originally posted by rocknroll
I'm totally for the draft. And I'm also too old to be in it...

Are you sure? The maximum age was extended to 42.

And I just turned 43 in November.
I'm sure. I was born in 1963.
I'm undraftable.

Originally posted by Vekar
Frankly I think if your 60, can still shoot just as good as anyone else, can manuver like anyone else and see just fine, then go ahead and stay.

Yeah, well, come back and tell us this when you're 60.
I'm 43 now. I started wearing trifocals when I turned 40.
My vision is for crap compared to what it was when I was 30.
But aside from being to old to be drafted I also have a lazy eye (amblyopia) that's real bad, and if I lose my glasses I'm basically blind............plus, I'm gay, LOL, and we know how the army feels about gays. And my weakness was always for sexy Middle Eastern/Persian type men.......seriously.

....I'm telling you, the army doesn't want me.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
Give me two good examples.

The british defeated the Boers in south africa, the french defeated the algierians and took over the country, the Nazis suppressed the resistance, the allies suppressed the nazi resistance, the british defeated the Mad Mahdi, and any number of other insurgencies against their colonial rule.


Its clear that insurgencies can be defeated.

Have you ever served in a war?

Nope.

So what exactly do you think our military should do?

They can start by increasing the number of troops to a sensible level, adding far more than the 20K that bush wants, just for Baghdad. They need to round up guys like al-sadr, who've openly attacked the US with their militias. They need to purge the military of the shia death squads. They need get control of the major cities, having enough troops who are actively pursuing the insurgents so as to disrupt their supply lines, find their weapons caches, etc, and then start expanding control outward from the cities. Other units would have to range in the territories outside of the cities to keep up a military pressence and respond when the insurgents attempt to attack them, dealing with the local 'tribal' authorities as well.
Any of that would be a good start. We're in the situation we are in now because the US simply doesn't know how to fight insurgencies. Its like the British during the american revolution, they didn't know how to respond to modern tactics.

a draft or no draft this will all come to a head. the huge elephant oil pockets are running dry and all the nations are competeing for oil rights , for it is the livelyhood of the countries. it is about oil. our big oil heads are going over there to complete a package so to speak, so that there is more oil to be pumped to the the usa. all other nations are involved in this. china has made and took their side already on the issue. they are thinking of theyre livelyhood too on the oil stance. no giant elephant oil pockets are out there except saudi. i do not know how saudi and iran are tied as of yet. saudi and iran are intertwinde in this oil thing. irans nukes only put them in a different stance. this february like ive said here time and time again will happen. the big oil heads are in the process of a new oil package deal with the saudis, this february, like i said. iran will have no part of this, this deal will go sour. we will invade iran if they give us any trouble with the transport of oil or the package deal. and you know that they and their friends will. i have been saying on here time and time again , the domminos will fall. it is because of this oil and watch the value of the dollar plummit as the value of oil rises. i tell you people, so take heed to what is about to happen this february when the oil heads meet. not good. so be prepared, for the backlash. wherever the domminos fall. they will all pick a side on thier stance of the oil situation.

3step:
No idea who you are calling "sprinkles" however you did sum up 3 points: military industrial complex will explode with power and wealth like never before should a draft start.
As for people who are 60, Asians pending on where they are and where they live can hit 80-90 and do just fine. There are plenty of people in the military with glasses, and my statement stands. No matter how old you are (of serving age that is, 18+) you should be able to serve if you can meet the requirements of agility, vision, and aim. Frankly I would like to see the minimum age brought up to 21, keep out the young pups who have done nothing in life and have tried nothing. All around the military should never be an option if you want education, government should be able to help you without you being their mercenary for 4+ years.
If they do draft, they had bettered keep the draftees where they are or risk them going AWOL back in the states.
Is it not ironic how people who have never been through war let alone seen the side effects or met people who have experianced it and listened to them want to keep wars going? Toss them on the front for a year or two and see what happens, they might change their mind.
Those who cannot expierance war or those who are smart enough NOT to fight for the elites: go talk to a WW2 veteran, Vietnam veteran, or as I had the liberty of doing: talking to a woman who had ALL her friends die from the atomic blast at Hiroshima and who was one of the survivors by luck.

Is it not ironic how people who have never been through war let alone seen the side effects or met people who have experianced it and listened to them want to keep wars going? Toss them on the front for a year or two and see what happens, they might change their mind.

And if we gave the power to decide when and where to go to war to the soldiers and veterans, we'd be at war with half the world at this point.

Nope I won't support it. If a nation wants to go to war, and really sees it as a war worth fighting, you will get the numbers you need to fight that war. If you say "We need 2 million enlisted in total in order to fight this war effectively." but only 1 million enlist, you don't start a draft. You realize not enough people believe in fighting that war strongly enough to actually go to war over it.

If the people of this nation aren't willing to fight in iraq, then don't fight in iraq. When they complain "our gas is going up" because the insurgence have control of the region you have every right to say "Well you better start supporting that war if you want it changed."

You get what you pay for, nothing more or less. If enough people believe in the war, then enough people will enlist to fight that war.

Since when has anyone but the elite had a say in who goes to war and when anyway? Only two wars in the history of the USA's existance. Oh would things ever get interesting in the USA if they started a draft, then drafted the very ones who supported it despite age, etc.

Eastcoastkid has a point - a large influx of troops and a decisive victory would put an end to the quagmire. But is this really what our leaders have in mind. Not according to ex CIA agent and death survivor Dannion Brinkley -

In addition, I feel that our present administration wants to put more troops in Baghdad, not to insure peace, but instead, to fuel more hatred toward the United States, in order to destabilize the area even more. An attack on Iran will be motivated by our desire to limit their control of the country’s oil, and will have nothing to do with their alleged potential possession of weapons of mass destruction.
www.dannion.com... - under 'That ain't nothing, Dannion's monthly rant - January 07

Seems the wasting of resources spent of this quagmire of a pre-emptive strike will also aid their economic plans to degrade the dollars buying power -

Through our spiritual activism, it is up to us to change the direction our world is taking. Let me give you an example: the minimum wage hike for the common man, Congress is bragging about, is really nothing more than rouge. I believe this because on December 13, 2006, Treasury Secretary Paulson, and Federal Reserve Chairman Bernanke, went to China to discuss strategic economics with the Chinese Central Bank. Translated simply, this means they intend to decrease the value of the dollar worldwide in order to inflate the value of the dollar within the United States which means an inflation rate of 10% per year over the next five years.

If this is true, we will get a 3-3.5% increase in minimum wage, and lose 7% of our buying power per year over the next five years. The only way the government of the United States can pay its way out of debt is with highly inflated dollars. This creates annual interest rates as high as 20% for us, and a disastrous downhill economic slide for our great nation.
From the same article

What would the powers of foreign investment stand to gain by destroying the American economy?

A nation of people who are too poor to fight, too poor to have a chance to challange them and too poor to put forth the money to fight them. One way of keeping control is to keep people too poor or too occupied with everyday life to watch what they are doing. Remember the elites have money all over the world, not just here, so if the US dollar goes down, no biggie, they have banks everywhere and tentacles everywhere.

Originally posted by hotpinkurinalmint
Instituting a draft will hit home as everyone's son, not just the sons of people too poor to afford college, will be running the risk of coming home in a flag draped coffin. This of course can lead to widespread outrage that can bring an abrupt halt to the war.

Precisely my point.

I believe in an all voluntary military. I served in one (US Army, 1989-1992). It was a well-oiled machine, too.

I despise the idea of a draft, unless we are faced with a truly catostrophic threat (like WW2).

Nothing will end the war quicker than every Americans' pound of flesh along with their hard-earned tax bill.

Originally posted by Vekar
If you want a draft so bad I hope you are on the front lines too, I dont CARE how old you are, or how crippled you are. If you want a draft so bad then go to the front YOURSELF!

I apologize to those ATS members who have long been acqainted with me and have to hear this one more time.

I served with the 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault) before, during and after the Persian Gulf War.

What were you doing at that time?

My younger brother joined the South Carolina National Guard in 2000 out of Patriotism and financial benefit.

He just barely avoided service in Iraq. His unit was put on alert about six months ago (one month before he was due to complete his enlistment).

At some point he and I had a conversation about what he would do if he was called up. He knew I would have plenty to say and he knew my mom wouldn't handle it well. He told me he would go b/c that is what he said he would do when he joined. And he could not leave his people in the lurch. He is a true leader and I admire him for that. Even though I have never supported the invasion/occupation of Iraq, I, too would go. Afterall, no one put a gun to my head to join. And I understood that I was agreeing to fight someone's war, should the need arise.

Thankfully, his unit's orders were recalled by 75% and he did not have to go. The best part of that was that after serving for x years (completing his term) he was discharged. I was all but convinced he would be stop-lossed, as so many others have been.

My brother was a better soldier than I was, by far. For some reason, it came natural to me (I was always an athlete). But he actually worked on every aspect of it, to his great credit. His last rank held was Sgt. As a former soldier I can say, I would follow his command into any of hell's hornets nests.

Thank God he's now out of uniform; and able to be the husband and father God wanted him to be.



[edit on 1/17/07 by EastCoastKid]

I do two things: educate others and learn, I refuse to stop learning. That is what I do, instead of serving fools and arrogant people to put it mildly and help them put bullets in peoples heads who have done nothing wrong I will educate people. Why? Because if you are EDUCATED you will NOT have to do that, you will be smart enough to find ways around it and only fight as a last resort. So what do YOU do then since you are mocking me or I should say: trying too.
What you said is the exact reason I DO NOT support the "troops," I call them mercenaries because they ARE. Those who go now, are part of the problem not part of the solution, if they want out because they learned the hard way and are willing to go AWOL then I will help them do so. However if they give the "I have to take orders" BS then I will not, one of the military mandates is to follow LEGAL orders, this war is ILLEGAL, thus they are acting ILLEGALY.
Apparently you forgot what I said: I DO NOT CARE AT ALL if you were in the military, I care NOT ONE BIT for that statement. It does not buy you respect with me, and never will, it will never gain credibility with me, and never will. I heard you the first time round and apparently you like to hear yourself repeat your "military past" with the rest of us.
Ok I have repeated myself AGAIN to you since you did not listen the first time round.
No point in trying to go further, as you can see it is only the ringaround. What matter is this, so let us not repeat ourselves a million times:
-I DO NOT support a draft
-You do
See? Easy! I said why I did not earlier, you said why you did earlier, so why keep repeating ourselves?
Here is what a mercenary is:
en.wikipedia.org...
That sums up OVER half the military as a STRICTLY mercenary force and that number is growing. In the future it will be more of a crusade army/mercenary force.
Give it about 5 more years and they will blurr the lines of legal and illegal orders to the point that rape and murder will be considered perfectly legal so long as you are not caught.
Edit: added a line (above) and link for what a mercenary is

[edit on 18-1-2007 by Vekar]

Originally posted by Vekar
Kid I do NOT care if you have served, I do NOT care if anyone you know or in your family has served. Why? Because you served our ENEMY, you served the elite not the nation.
You are NOT grasping what I have said so let me do this in SIMPLE BULLET POINT PRESENTATION:
-Draft= more numbers
-More numbers= more wars
-Elites are GOOD at dodging drafts, look at history
-Elites when never see the front line, they stay in the USA, example: Bush Jr. even then he was too scared
-Draft=Chance to remove unwanted from society
-More wars=More deaths
-Iraq=Lost
-Lost=GET OUT
-More numbers in one spot=higher body count for you
-More numbers in Iraq=Higher civilian death count
-The higher a number you have, the harder your enemy will fight
-Draft=extremely high income for corporations
-More wars=extremely high income for corporations

Get it? More numbers, more wars, try and draft elite, they run away, they have the MONEY to run away and they HAVE. A draft will just give them the chance to go wild for money making and increase their mercenary army ten-fold. The ONLY and I mean the ONLY way to get the elites to the front is to go in their homes at night, snatch their children, handkuff them, fly them blindfolded without any info to the nearest frontline and throw them stright into the fray. Put a collar on their next so if they run they get fried, I am suggesting using the dog collars that zap the dog should it leave a specific area. Make sure they cannot take it off though, weld it on to them. They are gutless spineless cowards, they have the money to blow the bejesus out of anyone who tries to do what I have just suggested: FORCE them. You need to realize you will be sending FAR more innocent people off to their death than the elites, the elites are less than 1% and their supporters less than 30% of the population. They keep going because the rest are too poor and have few or no choices, it also helps to be hiring foreign mercenaries to fight for them.
There are far too many cons, besides which I would hope you would realize they care little for their own ilk unless it serves their needs. If they have to chop one of their own kinds heads off to get ahead they will.

Also you talking about being on ATS longer means nothing to me as well, small side note.
Here is one of my quotes to those who like to pick on kids because they are younger than others, yet the ones doing the picking forget they were picket at once as was I, now they do the same, its called being a hypocrit:
"Age does not matter, what is in the HEART and MIND DOES MATTER!"
-Vekar- (ME)

I served the United States of America in the US Armed Forces. Get that straight.

I propose the draft as a means to involve every single American in this great Bush endeavor. That is the only thing that will stop this madness. If you havnt grasped it before, everything you wail on about is happening at this very moment. Why? B/c only a small number of Americans are actually serving in this debacle in Iraq.

Basically EastCoastKid is saying 'have a draft, that wil ignite 60's style resistance, and force the war to end'. I think its pretty clear that is what he/she is saying, I don't see where the confusion is about. ECK doesn't want this war, and thinks that if there is a draft, people will say 'I am not going to go, so I have to oppose the war now'.

The only reason I dont support the DRAFT, is because I wouldnt trust this government to do the correct things.

I mean, if the US government had the entire 18-43 pool of people at its disposal, I feel we would of been in Iran and Syria already.


If they have fighters that are expendable, they'd be a lot more brason about using them.

being they only have legitimate NCO's they have to use them in an effort that they are ONLY needed.

But A draft WOULD end Iraq, as long as we had the right leader to direct.

So keep fighting illegal wars then, no blood on my hands, its on yours.

Here is over 10,000 pictures to look at, skim for the ones of the Iraqis
images.google.com...://www.uruknet.info/uruknet-images/mars-pic-4.jpeg&imgrefurl=http://www.uruknet.info/dirfoto.php&h=338&w=4 50&sz=251&tbnid=_TPlB7Hr_vYJ:&tbnh=93&tbnw=124&hl=en&start=57&prev=/images%3Fq%3D2004%2Biraqi%2Bdead%26start%3D40%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN

Click the pictures of War Crimes and the like to see more
www.albasrah.net...

That blood is on YOUR hands, not mine, I fight them in all means possible, and you want to further their wars. Maybe you havent learned this already: THEY DO NOT CARE AT ALL ABOUT ANYONE OTHER THAN THEMSELVES! Those who are in their intermittent group are the ones you cannot draft, and their children are going to be long gone before a draft starts, as I have said before and you DID NOT LISTEN!
Actually you did not listen to a word I said so no point in going on, I just keep repeating myself to deaf people. I AM glad to know though that you are such a tiny group of people, because the vast majority of Americans DO NOT support a draft, thus we outnumber you. Go on with your little war then and keep having the blind lead the blind, SHED YOUR PRIDE FOR PEATS SAKE! You need to know how you "plan" can DRASTICALLY backfire, you DID NOT learn from Vietnam and now you are doing it again.
"Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it"
-Greek Philosophy-
"A wise general knows when he can, and when he cannot win a battle"
-Roman Proverb-
"Knowing when you can strike, and your enemy cannot, this is half the battle, knowing when your enemy can strike, and you cannot, this is half the battle, knowing when you cannot strike, and your enemy cannot strike, this is half the battle."
-Sun Tzu-
LEARN from history! During Vietnam "every American" was supposed to have "a pound of flesh" as you put it in Vietnam, I am proud to say how many refused to go and I am PROUD of what they did in fighting against the government. The elite? Well here I go repeating myself since you DID NOT LISTEN THE FIRST TWO (2) TIMES! The elite simply put their children in schools elsewhere or had them join the miltiary in areas that would NEVER see combat, remember Bush? YEAH! Go fight the VC from the National Guard in TEXAS! Never ONCE saw combat, and they reported him as AWOL and NEVER touched him. LEARN FROM HISTORY!

This is all I have to say to you ECK because you WILL NOT listen to what I am saying.
My last message to you: Swallow your pride and look at history for a change.

Want to end Iraq? Get out. That easy. Get out. They DO NOT want you there, so putting more people there will verify to the WORLD that you are only after oil and money. Prove them wrong and get out, then put the people who have commited crimes on trial from the elites right down to the privates. Remember the Soviet Unions responce to defeated the Afghan rebels? In case you never got that far in history class:
-They gasses
-They murderered
-They jailed
-They put more, and more, and more soldiers into Afghanistan.
Guess what? They lost. They lost to inferior numbers with inferior weapons, why? The Afghans were united AGAINST them. Iraq is united AGAINST the US invasion, the war is over, the Iraqis won. Vietnam was the same, After 4 years the Vietnamese realized the US was not a saviour, and turned on the US. The US lost, even after putting more people into Vietnam.
There is a brief history 101 on repitition of history.

Well that sums up what I have been trying to say again and again, so if no one listens, oh well, no skin off my back. Besides no point in talking on a discussion that is not going anywhere other than repetition and back slapping.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
How to End the War?

Oh I just gotta' share. Yesterday (or the day before) I was watching The Daily Show and they have decided that the way to end the war is for Dr. Condi Rice to have babies. Afterall, if you consider the words Barbara Boxer (who I think is just jealous of Dr. Rice's position) ... then Dr. Rice would insure peace because she has children.

So ... in the spirit of 'The Daily Show' ... someone volunteer to help Dr. Rice have babies ...

And poof .. end of war.

(sorry, just had to share! )

[edit on 1/18/2007 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by Nygdan
Basically EastCoastKid is saying 'have a draft, that wil ignite 60's style resistance, and force the war to end'. I think its pretty clear that is what he/she is saying, I don't see where the confusion is about. ECK doesn't want this war, and thinks that if there is a draft, people will say 'I am not going to go, so I have to oppose the war now'.

Exactly. Thanks for the translation.