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How to End the War? Start the Draft

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posted on Jan, 13 2007 @ 01:58 PM
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Since President George W. bush chooses to ignore the will of the US public, Iraqis and the world in general, regarding changing course in Iraq, the only thing left to do now is start the draft.

Don't get me wrong, I abhor the whole notion of a draft unless this nation faces a grave threat (like world war, ie. WW2); but it is the one and only thing that will bring a halt to this current madness.

Our Marines and Army forces have been degraded so badly b/c of repeated deployments, it has been said that it is they and they alone who are fighting this war. I have to agree. 80% of US citizens and the vast majority of those who serve in the Bush administration and congress have absolutely no ties to anyone currently serving in the middle east. That is precisely why this continues.

When every American family has its pound of flesh heading into the battle and slated to serve (in whatever capacity), only then will this madness end.




posted on Jan, 13 2007 @ 02:11 PM
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Originally posted by EastCoastKid
President George W. bush chooses to ignore the will of the US public

Yes he does. (Supposedly) He has access to classified information that we don't have and so he can make more informed decisions than we can.


Iraqis

Insurants yes, Iraqis no.


and the world in general,

So what? He isn't President of the United States to do the bidding of the world. He is POTUS to do what is best for America. period. What anyone else wants is of no concern. Their 'will' is irrelevant.


the only thing left to do now is start the draft.


It's not the only thing left, but it is the best thing IMHO. A nice 2 year mandatory service. Oh that would be nice. Unfortunately, studies have shown that a volunteer Army is better motivated than a conscript army and therefore a draft will be the last thing to happen. And then there would be the whining from those who think their demographic group has been over drafted ..
Oh yes .. it would be interesting.

But a draft? I'm for it.

Two years. Just like Israel.
Best thing America could do.



posted on Jan, 13 2007 @ 02:34 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
President George W. bush chooses to ignore the will of the US public
Yes he does. (Supposedly) He has access to classified information that we don't have and so he can make more informed decisions than we can.


That's a fallacy. I wrote an op/ed before the invasion stating that it would be an unmitigated disaster to invade and occupy Iraq; and that there were no WMD.

I was right. He and his apparatus were wrong. He chose to ignore vital information that was available to others, including myself. Anyone who would have done the proper research of unclassified material would've discovered how wrong BushCo. was.


ECK: Iraqis
Flyers Fan: Insurants yes, Iraqis no.


At least 80% of Iraqis surveyed approve of attacks on US forces; at least 60% surveyed want our forces out.


ECK: and the world in general,
Flyers Fan: So what? He isn't President of the United States to do the bidding of the world. He is POTUS to do what is best for America. period. What anyone else wants is of no concern. Their 'will' is irrelevant.


No, it is not irrelevant. The US is not an island unto itself. We have involved ourselves so extensively out there into that larger world, that we do have to concern ourselves with what others think. Without co-operation from allies and even not allies, we can't really do a whole lot.


ECK: the only thing left to do now is start the draft.

Flyers Fan: It's not the only thing left, but it is the best thing IMHO. A nice 2 year mandatory service. Oh that would be nice. Unfortunately, studies have shown that a volunteer Army is better motivated than a conscript army and therefore a draft will be the last thing to happen. And then there would be the whining from those who think their demographic group has been over drafted ..
Oh yes .. it would be interesting.


Yes, a 2 yr period of mandatory service wouldn't hurt anyone.

As of right now, with stop-loss usage and sending guard and reserve forces into combat as we have, we no longer have that all-volunteer military. We have soldiers and Marines doing up to 3 and 4 tours. That is unconscionable. No one should ever be forced to do more than one tour of duty in combat (12 months). That didn't even happen during the Vietnam War.

Right now our Marines and Army cannot keep up with recruiting enough troops; therefore they have dropped the enlistment standards to a horrific degree. This is definitely not the professional military I served with during the Gulf War. Back then they had relatively high standards for enlistment, which was excellent. As it should be.

If the draft was re-instated it would take the pressure off of those who have already served in Iraq and Afghanistan, allowing them to return, re-arm and retrain in peace.

Its time for all Americans to join this effort or put an end to it once and for all.




[edit on 1/13/07 by EastCoastKid]



posted on Jan, 13 2007 @ 04:28 PM
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I think there is a great deal of truth in this post. A draft will increase troop levels, and extra troops may get the job done in Iraq and/or a draft will create so much public outrage with the war that war will end.

Even though less than 50% of the people support the war right now, there seems not be a great deal of outrage amongst all the people. Instituting a draft will hit home as everyone's son, not just the sons of people too poor to afford college, will be running the risk of coming home in a flag draped coffin. This of course can lead to widespread outrage that can bring an abrupt halt to the war.



posted on Jan, 13 2007 @ 05:10 PM
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If you want a draft so bad I hope you are on the front lines too, I dont CARE how old you are, or how crippled you are. If you want a draft so bad then go to the front YOURSELF! I WILL NEVER support a draft for this war or any other war created by these self rightchous beurocrats. More bodies in Iraq=More body bags. I guess you adhere to the Vietnam idea of putting more people in to "make things better through strength" which fell FLAT ON ITS REAR! The Iraqis DO NOT want you there, you proved yourself to be AGAINST what they want, not for it. You have proven you are there to blow the bejesus out of their nation, not help it. 650,000 and counting civilian deaths, it will skyrocket even HIGHER if you put more people in Iraq.
Sickening to know you think that a draft will pull in the elites. IT WILL NOT! They dodged it during Nam and they will do it AGAIN! Anyone who thinks that a draft will get the elite to stop the war is off their rocker, you cannot throw the bush twin in because they will dissapear to FRANCE for the next 20+ years in a mansion courtesy of Boeing. No point even discussing how SICKENING this discussion is, a draft will only make them start MORE WARS because they have TRIPLE the number of bodies to use. Also it is a GREAT chance to throw their enemies to the front, because over half the nation wants they strung up by their nuts right now.
Fighting statement: Yes
Emotional: yes, its called HAVING A HEART AND CARING FOR OTHERS LIVES!
Logical: YES YES YES!



posted on Jan, 13 2007 @ 05:24 PM
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I'm totally for the draft. And I'm also too old to be in it...

But, seriously, I think it might be what we need in this country to really awaken consciousness in people. It will have a massive impact on youth. Which I think in the long run will have positive results in this country.

Back in the 1960's when the draft kicked in it started protests and rebellion and change, and although I don't advocate rebellion I do think our government is almost due for a major change, which might only be brought on by rebellion and civil unrest. Sometimes you gotta get worse before you can get better.



posted on Jan, 13 2007 @ 07:42 PM
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What happens if there is a draft, and then because of the huge surplus of troops in iraq, there is a shutdown on the violence?????



posted on Jan, 13 2007 @ 08:55 PM
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Originally posted by Nygdan
What happens if there is a draft, and then because of the huge surplus of troops in iraq, there is a shutdown on the violence?????


What would happen if they found those same young troops rebelling and joining the masses back here at home?



posted on Jan, 14 2007 @ 12:00 AM
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Originally posted by rocknroll
What would happen if they found those same young troops rebelling and joining the masses back here at home?

Well, they'd quite properly shoot them.

So, again, what happens if the draft results huge troop levels and a cracking up of the insurgency in Iraq? People might start saying 'well, since we've already got the troops over there, maybe they can just march right into iran'.

REMEMBER, the public favoured the war so long as it was going alright. They put bush back into power while it was going on. Just as the latest election clearly shows that the public is against hte war, the 2004 election showed that they essentially supported it. Once it really looked like it was going nowhere, and that they wouldn't be able to stabilize iraq, they started backing off it.

So, if there's a tremendous troop increase, and even with a draft, the elite ain't the ones that are going to be serving anyway, its just going to be more of the poor sent over than anyhow, AND it results in success, people are going to start supporting the doctrine again.

People weren't generally against the draft in wwii, because the war was going alright (more or less). If Vietnam had gone 'alright', or the government propaganda at home had been more effective, there probably wouldn't've been an anti-war movement. So if the same happens here, we probably will decide that its worthwhile to invade iran and syria and the rest.



posted on Jan, 14 2007 @ 12:35 AM
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Originally posted by Vekar
If you want a draft so bad I hope you are on the front lines too, I dont CARE how old you are, or how crippled you are. If you want a draft so bad then go to the front YOURSELF!


Well, dear reader, since you're young here, I don't expect you to know me. I've been here at ATS for awhile and a lot of people do know me - I apologize for the rehash. I served with the 101st Airborne Division before during and after the Gulf War. So, I have, in fact, put my money where my mouth is.

I'm just asking every other gung ho American to do the same.

My little brother, also, just got out of the SC National Guard. Thank God. I have bad dreams that they'll call him back for Iraq b/c they're stretched so thin.

Get this straight: the only thing that will stop the war is when EVERY American family has to offer someone up.


[edit on 1/14/07 by EastCoastKid]



posted on Jan, 14 2007 @ 12:40 AM
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Originally posted by Nygdan
So, again, what happens if the draft results huge troop levels and a cracking up of the insurgency in Iraq? People might start saying 'well, since we've already got the troops over there, maybe they can just march right into iran'.



It ain't gonna happen.

We can't recruit enuff troops.

And it doesn't matter how many troops we pour into Iraq, we cannot defeat their insurgency. Look at history. Or don't.

Anyone who has studied their history and who has SERVED knows this is a losing proposition.

F*** the Neocons and their pollyanna dreams. They are the worst thing that ever happended to America.



posted on Jan, 14 2007 @ 01:15 AM
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Originally posted by EastCoastKid
We can't recruit enuff troops.

But you are talking about a draft.


And it doesn't matter how many troops we pour into Iraq, we cannot defeat their insurgency. Look at history. Or don't.

Insurgencies are often defeated. Insurgencies aren't invincible.


Anyone who has studied their history and who has SERVED knows this is a losing proposition.

I think that soldiers who've served successfully against insurgencies would disagree.


What the united states is doing wrong is treating an insurgency like a regular army. Thats why the US has trouble suppressing insurgencies, like in Vietnam and now in Iraq.

But the suggestion that insurgencies are unstoppable is simply wrong. They require different tactics, you can't bomb an insurgency into oblivion, for example.

But having a large number of troops to rapidly respond any time an insurgency/guerilla group pops up to attack, killing them, finding their supply networks, splitting up the villages that support them, and providing on the spot security for the regular citizens, so that they can get their lives back together, and aren't interested in the insurgency, yes, that can work. And a draft would easily give us the numbers to do this.

I don't think that we're going to have a draft, because it seems like only Rangell is interested in having it. And I don't think that even if we did have more troops, that anything'd be different in Iraq, because the peopel in charge now aren't interested in winning, beyond its domestic political implications.

But its incorrect to say that insurgencies don't get defeated.



posted on Jan, 14 2007 @ 01:45 AM
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Originally posted by EastCoastKid
We can't recruit enuff troops.


NYGDAN:But you are talking about a draft.



NYGDAN: Insurgencies are often defeated. Insurgencies aren't invincible.


Give me two good examples.


ECK: Anyone who has studied their history and who has SERVED knows this is a losing proposition.
NYGDAN: I think that soldiers who've served successfully against insurgencies would disagree.


Have you ever served in a war?



What the united states is doing wrong is treating an insurgency like a regular army. Thats why the US has trouble suppressing insurgencies, like in Vietnam and now in Iraq.


No, what our Army is doing is fighting the enemy they've been given. It doesn't compute with our "regular models."


But the suggestion that insurgencies are unstoppable is simply wrong. They require different tactics, you can't bomb an insurgency into oblivion, for example.


So what exactly do you think our military should do?



I don't think that we're going to have a draft, because it seems like only Rangell is interested in having it. And I don't think that even if we did have more troops, that anything'd be different in Iraq, because the peopel in charge now aren't interested in winning, beyond its domestic political implications.


This thread is not a 'I think the draft will be started' thread. It should happen. But the odds are slim to none.



posted on Jan, 14 2007 @ 01:54 AM
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Originally posted by Nygdan
Well, they'd quite properly shoot them.


LOL!
That wasn't the kinda radical twist I was looking for.



posted on Jan, 14 2007 @ 02:02 AM
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Kid I do NOT care if you have served, I do NOT care if anyone you know or in your family has served. Why? Because you served our ENEMY, you served the elite not the nation.
You are NOT grasping what I have said so let me do this in SIMPLE BULLET POINT PRESENTATION:
-Draft= more numbers
-More numbers= more wars
-Elites are GOOD at dodging drafts, look at history
-Elites when never see the front line, they stay in the USA, example: Bush Jr. even then he was too scared
-Draft=Chance to remove unwanted from society
-More wars=More deaths
-Iraq=Lost
-Lost=GET OUT
-More numbers in one spot=higher body count for you
-More numbers in Iraq=Higher civilian death count
-The higher a number you have, the harder your enemy will fight
-Draft=extremely high income for corporations
-More wars=extremely high income for corporations

Get it? More numbers, more wars, try and draft elite, they run away, they have the MONEY to run away and they HAVE. A draft will just give them the chance to go wild for money making and increase their mercenary army ten-fold. The ONLY and I mean the ONLY way to get the elites to the front is to go in their homes at night, snatch their children, handkuff them, fly them blindfolded without any info to the nearest frontline and throw them stright into the fray. Put a collar on their next so if they run they get fried, I am suggesting using the dog collars that zap the dog should it leave a specific area. Make sure they cannot take it off though, weld it on to them. They are gutless spineless cowards, they have the money to blow the bejesus out of anyone who tries to do what I have just suggested: FORCE them. You need to realize you will be sending FAR more innocent people off to their death than the elites, the elites are less than 1% and their supporters less than 30% of the population. They keep going because the rest are too poor and have few or no choices, it also helps to be hiring foreign mercenaries to fight for them.
There are far too many cons, besides which I would hope you would realize they care little for their own ilk unless it serves their needs. If they have to chop one of their own kinds heads off to get ahead they will.

Also you talking about being on ATS longer means nothing to me as well, small side note.
Here is one of my quotes to those who like to pick on kids because they are younger than others, yet the ones doing the picking forget they were picket at once as was I, now they do the same, its called being a hypocrit:
"Age does not matter, what is in the HEART and MIND DOES MATTER!"
-Vekar- (ME)



posted on Jan, 14 2007 @ 03:01 AM
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I for one, being someone who has had family serve in the military, do not support the draft. This just means if the draft is reinstated, more troops will become the casualties of an unjust war. The only way that this war will be stopped is if we tell the Iraqi "government" over there to fight your own battles on your own soil because we give up.

As for my family that has served in the United States Military, my great grandfather served in the Civil War with the Union side. My grandfather served in Germany after WWII and one of my dad's uncles served in both Germany and Korea. Not only that, my uncle Lewis was KIA'ed in Vietnam back in 1968.



posted on Jan, 14 2007 @ 11:52 AM
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Originally posted by rocknroll
I'm totally for the draft. And I'm also too old to be in it...

Are you sure? The maximum age was extended to 42.



posted on Jan, 14 2007 @ 02:02 PM
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Give it time and they will up the age limit again, and again, and again... They do this not because someone who has fought for 20 years is better at fighting but because they lack bodies.
Frankly I think if your 60, can still shoot just as good as anyone else, can manuver like anyone else and see just fine, then go ahead and stay. Their reasons though are not honorable in this way.



posted on Jan, 14 2007 @ 02:23 PM
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Originally posted by EastCoastKid
F*** the Neocons and their pollyanna dreams. They are the worst thing that ever happended to America.


But they have God and Jesus on their side, President Bush even said God speaks to him!




Originally posted by Vekar
-Draft= more numbers
-More numbers= more wars
-Elites are GOOD at dodging drafts, look at history
-Elites when never see the front line, they stay in the USA, example: Bush Jr. even then he was too scared
-Draft=Chance to remove unwanted from society
-More wars=More deaths
-Iraq=Lost
-Lost=GET OUT
-More numbers in one spot=higher body count for you
-More numbers in Iraq=Higher civilian death count
-The higher a number you have, the harder your enemy will fight
-Draft=extremely high income for corporations
-More wars=extremely high income for corporations

== Military Industrial Complex

(fixed it for ya sprinkles)



posted on Jan, 14 2007 @ 03:56 PM
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How to end the war?
PULL IT.
Errr. pull out, yeah that's what I meant.

I have to agree that through a draft more American son's would die and it might be enough to raise the dissent of the American people, but I always thought that would've happend long ago.




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