HUD Secretary Speaks Against Black Victimhood

Originally posted by jsobecky

Originally posted by BH
So, you're saying that once a kid commits a crime, he gets treated better because he's white. What I'm saying is don't commit the crime in the first place. That's where the ball's in your court. That's what you DO have control over.

Can't argue with that, no way, no how.

KOODO's BH...

That is a simple yet often overlooked concept....

We truly can only ever influence that which we have control over. All else is left in God's hands or fate or whatever you may believe.

Or, we can sit around and complain about what "could" have been, or what "should" have been.

Of course the alternative is to get up, get out and make a difference by changing, influencing or developing those things we do have some control over.

Semper

That's not the point, BH.

Obviously, you are better off not committing a crime. HOWEVER, that still doesn't mean you will refrain from doing it. Young people think they know everything, and they are probably thinking they won't get caught when they do what they do. Basically, young people make mistakes.

So, why should two kids get highly discrepant punishments for the same crime because one's black and one's white? Explain that to me. And as you sit on your high chair about selling crack, just remember that your government deals a HELL of a lot more drugs than any individual, regardless of race.

So don't sidestep my point about unequal punishment like this. It doesn't have to be crack; it could be vandalism, theft, assault, whatever. You will still see whites, on average, get a slap on the wrist compared to blacks, on average.

Originally posted by jsobecky
Or are you just looking for some debating ammo to take to school where you play the angry young black man? I'm gonna have to start charging you for those good grades you get due to using my wisdom as a source.

WTF?

Like I said, you have nothing real to say. I guess your Halloween costume came with a crystal ball too...

Originally posted by truthseeka
Young people think they know everything, and they are probably thinking they won't get caught when they do what they do. Basically, young people make mistakes.

Do you think I don't know this? Do you think I was never one of these "young people" you speak of?

So, why should two kids get highly discrepant punishments for the same crime because one's black and one's white?

They shouldn't! What makes you think that's my stance? They shouldn't! It's not fair, it's not right! It's discrimination, pure and simple!

Knowing this, I'd think black kids would be even MORE careful about disobeying the law.

And as you sit on your high chair about selling crack, just remember that your government deals a HELL of a lot more drugs than any individual, regardless of race.

I'm not on a high chair. You brought it up. I just responded. Just so you know, I have NO moral judgment against doing or selling drugs. I think most of them should be legal, in fact. It's just against the law and it's KNOWN that it's against the law.

I know about our corrupt government. What's that got to do with anything?

It doesn't have to be crack; it could be vandalism, theft, assault, whatever.

Did you do these things? I NEVER did these things as a kid. Why does anyone need to do these things?

You will still see whites, on average, get a slap on the wrist compared to blacks, on average.

I know. I agree. So don't do it.

This is the victim mentality that we're speaking of. Young black people complaining that if they sell drugs or assault someone or rob a 7-11 they get into more trouble than whites. That's COMPARING, which has its place, but if you don't want to end up behind bars, then don't steal the car!


[edit on 2-2-2007 by Benevolent Heretic]

That's exactly what institutional racism is all about. I agree with truthseeka. It is that easy to sit on one's high chair and make pronouncements about what people should and shouldn't do. As much as a person can say whether to "do it or not", it is also apropo to say that there are always facets of the system to work against those who are disenfranchised.

What does one do about the corrupt and racist cops who will stop a Black person and harass them just because they feel like it? After all, that is "Driving While Black".

(And then, the recent arrest of a police officer responsible for a murder during the civil rights era comes to mind.)

What about the legal system that gives a harsher punishment to a Black inmate in comparison to a White one? This is especially the case when the death penalty is handed out to more black males than white ones.

Now, is that their fault? Or is it the system's fault?

Yes, it is easy to tell someone "not to do it". However, who is going to control the corrupt aspects of the system that notably works against people of color everyday?

It's not enough to say "it isn't fair". That still reflects an apathetic stance taken those from a privileged point of view in order to gloss over the effects of the descrepancies that happen by race. As long as that apathy is there, the same type of systematic wrongdoing afforded by race is going to happen.

Who is going to stop the corrupt workers who help keep up these divisions within the system? I wonder if that is why white people, on their part, are rather reluctant to change matters in the name of justice while pontificating from their perch about "how one should do the right thing".

How change happens is not because of the people who are affected by the system; the people who "affect" the system via policy are the ones that ought to be culpable for keeping things the way they are.

Thanks, truthseeka for talking about this. The perceptions about "the system" really put into practice how different races see the same thing.



[edit on 2-2-2007 by ceci2006]

BH

Your common sense rings through the darkest of the side stepping and deflection...

You have voted Benevolent Heretic for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.

As well you have compassion and understanding even in the face of ridicule and persecution...

I salute you..

Semper

[edit on 2/2/2007 by semperfortis]

So, BH, what you're saying is, in a nutshell, 'a criminal is a criminal.' 'If you do the crime, be prepared to do the time'?

I don't mean to oversimplify, I'm just trying to get your point, minus the race aspect. Then, I'll weigh in.

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
So, BH, what you're saying is, in a nutshell, 'a criminal is a criminal.' 'If you do the crime, be prepared to do the time'?

Well, I wouldn't say "a criminal is a criminal", because there are so many connotations possible there. I don't necessarily believe that a kid who makes a choice to do something illegal is a "criminal".

And let me be clear that I'm not arguing with ANYTHING truthseeka says. I know the system is corrupt and it sucks. It's wrong, it's discrimination and I hate it.

But yeah, if you do the crime be prepared to do the time. That goes for everyone.

I feel like I'm stepping into it, but so be it. Let me have it!

I'm not stepping on your toes BH but this isn't new to ATS, check this old thread:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

The news source was this I believe:

www.cnn.com...

And Bill is right, accept responsibility for yourself. That can be said for a person of ANY colour. Anything less is a cop out.

You can step on my toes anytime.

I was sure there was a thread around the Cosby speech but that was before my time. I'll read through it. Thanks!

Edit after reading it: Whew! And people think I'm a hardass!

[edit on 2-2-2007 by Benevolent Heretic]

Are the cops responsible for a crime when they willingly beat up and abuse a person of color during interrogation?

No one is disagreeing with the fact that if one does a crime, they ought to be arrested.

How, it is simply not enough in saying that the system is corrupt and discriminatory.

I just wonder if some will bring themselves to recognize that there are people who exist within the system that continually keep institutional racism up. They are helped by people who continually subject the blame on the disenfranchised and stay in denial.

It doesn't hinge upon someone being calm and compassionate while denying the true aspects of institutional racism.

That's what I mean about the "semantic disconnect" that is happening during this subject matter.

[edit on 2-2-2007 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
I would also like to ask these questions:

Who is responsible for the crime of a racist cop pulling over people of color (which happened along a stretch of highway in Florida, btw) just because they were "Driving While Black".

Are the cops responsible for a crime when they willingly beat up and abuse a person of color during interrogation?

No one is disagreeing with the fact that if one does a crime, they ought to be arrested.

It's not enough in saying that the system is corrupt and discrimatory.

I just wonder if some will bring themselves to recognize that there are people who exist within the system that continually keep institutional racism up. They are helped by people who continually subject the blame on the disenfranchised.

Maybe, the question ought to be asked, who is watching the watchers?



[edit on 2-2-2007 by ceci2006]

I can answer that ceci. I work in Canada's largest jail. We have correctional officers(co's) of all races. I can tell you that they are a unit, they don't care if their back up is black, white, asian or ET. All they care about is that their back is covered. They also will go up against inmates that are black, white, asian(no ET's yet). Continuing this line of thought that there is pandemic discrimination is counterproductive and is actually a cop out. Read what Bill said, he's right. Take responsibility for your own actions.

If you wish to pull the Rodney King card, fine. Those type of offenses are few and far between(I'm sure you won't see that), we've grown as a species. Or maybe we've just learned how to keep it off of the nightly news.

Originally posted by intrepid
Continuing this line of thought that there is pandemic discrimination is counterproductive and is actually a cop out.

While I agree with the concept of 'cop-out' in this overall discussion, Canada is SO much cooler in many ways than the US. And this is probably one of them. The police force here in many areas is so corrupt and racist, you wouldn't believe it.

If you wish to pull the Rodney King card, fine. Those type of offenses are few and far between

And while Rodney King-type beatings don't happen that often, they do happen and what's worse (perhaps) is that black people are the target of many police officers on the beat.

I'm sorry and embarrassed to say it but it's true.

Any cop who beats up any person in an interrogation is commiting a crime. That goes without saying, I would think.

Finally, BH, we can agree for once.

It's easy just to say that this stuff doesn't happen. But it does. Cops have many times pulled in "mistaken identities" for a crime. They have also exhibited their own racial animus on suspects brutally and get off with slaps on the wrist.

What it comes down to are problems on both sides of the system. Until they are acknowledged and dealt with, what you get is a lot of pundits embracing the "blaming culture" stance.

Or else, you just get a stream of people "trying to tell the Black community" what to do without listening to the critiques of Black people. By all the mentions of "you should listen to this advice," it could make one think that Black people do not have a mind of their own to make their own choices.

Maybe the question ought to be when will be the day those from the dominant culture stop with the advice and come to grips with their own denial of the occurrences of institutional racism. When that happens, we will truly have a conversation about race and not have "well meaning" folk from the dominant culture tell people of color how they should think and act about society at large either from their own lips or from the mouths of their messengers.

-----------------------

Thank you for the heads up, intrepid. I have read what Bill Cosby had said on and off the board. Earlier in the thread, I had posted sources which systematically refute his words on a sociological and economical basis.

Just because Mr. Cosby is being embraced by the conservatives and the dominant culture doesn't mean that his message should be appropriated by everyone. It is widely known in Hollywood about his womanizing. I'm sorry about the death of his son and the drug problems associated with his oldest daughter, but out of all people, he needs a dose of tough love.

But it is within your rights to embrace his message. Some people do. Others of us critically analyze and question instead.


[edit on 2-2-2007 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
Just because Mr. Cosby is being embraced by the conservatives doesn't mean that his message should be appropriated by everyone.

But it is within your rights to embrace his message. Some people do. Others of us critically analyse and question instead of blindly follow.

I'm NOT a conservative but I find his message of "personal accountability" to be relevant. You seem to have an agenda of blame someone else for the inequities in life, let's call them "whitey" but Bill made an EXCELLENT point, "your life is YOURS, make of it what you will, stop blaming others."

Funny that a white guy got the point. Thanks Bill.

Guess what, this goes beyond "colour". In North America my family is fairly new, we're "white trash". I was the first in my family to graduate high school EVER(1981) and went to university.

It's all about the person, if you want to blame someone else for your failure, NO progress will be made.

I'm glad you got the message. I'm also glad that you feel so strongly about it. But is it fair to note that there are some of us who are quite skeptical of his message as well?

I didn't know that we had to be forced to take his message, unless we fall into ruin.

However, what people tend to forget is that there are plenty of persons who don't listen to Bill Cosby and openly criticize his message in a civil and academic manner. And they are doing just fine without his wagging finger.

Respectfully, some of us do not need to hold Mr. Cosby's hand to make it in this society.

[edit on 2-2-2007 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
However, what people tend to forget is that there are plenty of persons who don't listen to Bill Cosby and openly criticize his message in a civil and academic manner. And they are doing just fine without his wagging finger.

Cool, do YOU have a viable option to "personal accountability"?

Originally posted by ceci2006
Or else, you just get a stream of people "trying to tell the Black community" what to do without listening to the critiques of Black people. By all the mentions of "you should listen to this advice," it could make one think that Black people do not have a mind of their own to make their own choices.

Maybe the question ought to be when will be the day those from the dominant culture stop with the advice and come to grips with their own denial of the occurrences of institutional racism.

Um, what about when it's "good and positive" advice?

Originally posted by ceci2006
Just because Mr. Cosby is being embraced by the conservatives and the dominant culture doesn't mean that his message should be appropriated by everyone. It is widely known in Hollywood about his womanizing. How can one believe him when he is accused of doing the "same crimes" and refuse to answer whether he did them or not? Instead, he pays them off. I'm sorry about the death of his son and the drug problems associated with his oldest daughter, but out of all people, he needs a dose of tough love.

But it is within your rights to embrace his message. Some people do. Others of us critically analyze and question instead.

He's offering "good and positive" advice to help solve problems.
Do you expect everyone on this planet to be sinless?
Are you without sin, Ceci?
I know you're not.
Why should anyone here take your advice when we all know you're "not perfect".
Not that anyone here personally knows you, but I think it's a safe assumption to say you're not perfect either.

People can still be imperfect and offer wise advice.
For many of us, our spirits are strong, but our flesh is weak.
This does not mean that a man who is flawed (like we all are) cannot offer sound advice at any point in his life.


Seems to me like you just keep digging up dirt on these people to justify your argument. Everybody has dirty laundry.......everybody.

[edit on 2-2-2007 by rocknroll]

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I know the system is corrupt and it sucks. It's wrong, it's discrimination and I hate it.

I'm glad you feel that way, but I have to wonder how you can dismiss its effects and repercussions.

But yeah, if you do the crime be prepared to do the time. That goes for everyone.

I actually agree with you. As a matter of fact, I would be willing to bet that truthseeka and ceci feel the same way.

The problem is the unequal enforcement of the laws that I think you acknowledge.

The more I think about this, the more I realize, it could be that the cops are at fault (over-policing certain neighborhoods, frivolous arrests, etc), but, imo, the fault belongs to the public defense system (not sure what it's called, but, you know: legal aid).

Instead of defending their clients, they tend to railroad poor minorities into 'pleading out,' basically taking for granted that their guilty. (I have examples, with sources, if you want them.)

I can't say if they treat their poor white clients the same. I don't know. If anyone knows, please share your examples (sources would be nice too), as it would be helpful to our discussion to compare.

I feel like I'm stepping into it, but so be it. Let me have it!

Not at all.