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HUD Secretary Speaks Against Black Victimhood

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posted on Jan, 28 2007 @ 09:06 PM
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Everyone needs to cool down here, remember, we're all here to discuss the same issues, lets not be sidetracked by one another's personalities.

Lets get back to discussing the issue of what the HUD director has said.




posted on Jan, 29 2007 @ 10:50 AM
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In a way, I like this thread.

It shows me how eager some whites are to shake their heads at the blacks because blacks keep themselves down in this country.
It seems like having a black person say this about blacks gives these whites more reason to say "tsk, tsk, tsk, what a shame."

Never mind that this is a load of crap. Blame people who just recently were granted equal status "on paper" for the problems in their segment of society. I'm SO glad jsobecky told HH to stop living in the past.
He/she would have us believe that, despite DISCRIMINATION BEING AN INTEGRAL PART OF THE HOUSING SYSTEM FOR DECADES, it's the inner city blacks' fault that they are in their station.

But, maybe you're right. Maybe the blacks who worked hard to earn money for a good house, yet were kept from getting good housing should have blamed the poor blacks in the city. They shouldn't have blamed the whites who wouldn't give them loans...I get it now.

And, blacks who want an education today should blame other blacks too, right? Not the inequality and deliberate discrimination in the school system, right? Please.

People like FF and becky fail to take a look at the REAL problem, SYSTEMATIC DISCRIMINATION. What the hell else do you call someone who can't get a decent opportunity in American society because of the system? A VICTIM!!! When your school sucks because your neighborhood is poor because the jobs there suck because a mere 4 DECADES AGO, it was legal (and right, I'd like to add
) for whites to put blacks in that position, wtf do you expect?

And, I'll add another factor to this equation, though this is not a part of the system per se. The persistent, though covert, idea of white supremacy still plays a significant role in the socioeconomic status of blacks AND whites. I recently watched a video called "The Angry Eye" . It was quite insightful, and I would recommend anyone who hasn't seen it to have a look at it.

A teacher in the late 60's implemented an eye color experiment to teach children about discrimination the day after the MLK assassination. She split the all-white class into brown and blue eyed groups, and gave each group superiority over the other over a couple of days (the first day, blue eyes ruled, the next brown). She gave the subordinate group a collar to wear around their neck as well.

I'm not going to summarize the whole experiment here; my reason for bringing this up is that for both groups, the students in the dominant group did better on daily quizzes than those in the subordinate group. She even sent some of the test results to the psych department at Stanford, which concluded that the students were having their test scores affected in a 24 hour period, which they thought was impossible.

What's the point of all that? It shows how the psychological aspects of our place in society can influence our performance in education. In other words, white students who are told they are superior to others, especially blacks, will do better on tests than blacks, who are told they are inferior to whites.

I have white friends who have told me STRAIGHT UP that their families taught them white supremacy. MORE IMPORTANTLY, they said their families told them the reason blacks are, on average, in a lower socioeconomic bracket than themselves is because IT'S BLACKS' FAULTS THEY ARE INFERIOR AND THAT WHITE PEOPLE WILL ALWAYS BE BETTER THAN BLACKS.

On top of that, I've seen young black males on shows like Judge Hatchett who show me the other side of the coin. These kids said they would never amount to anything more than a life of crime because THEY'RE BLACK, AND THAT'S THE ONLY WAY FOR BLACK MALES TO SURVIVE IN AMERICA.

THAT'S why I dismiss Alphonso Jackson as another patsy used to blame blacks for our situation. I don't give a damn how much FF and becky ride this guy's jock and shake their heads.



posted on Jan, 29 2007 @ 12:09 PM
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Originally posted by truthseeka
In a way, I like this thread.

It shows me how eager some whites are to shake their heads at the blacks because blacks keep themselves down in this country.
It seems like having a black person say this about blacks gives these whites more reason to say "tsk, tsk, tsk, what a shame."

Never mind that this is a load of crap.

Well, I'm glad that you recognize what you wrote above is a load of crap. That's the first step in solving your problems.



posted on Jan, 29 2007 @ 01:28 PM
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Originally posted by truthseeka
.....despite DISCRIMINATION BEING AN INTEGRAL PART OF THE HOUSING SYSTEM FOR DECADES, it's the inner city blacks' fault that they are in their station.

Hmmmm, how does that explain the affluent, educated blacks that live in my area?
They go to good schools around here, too.


Originally posted by truthseeka
They shouldn't have blamed the whites who wouldn't give them loans...I get it now.

Well, I do know that you don't get a loan if you have bad credit. It's that simple. Doesn't matter what color you are. Bad credit, no loan.


Originally posted by truthseeka
And, blacks who want an education today should blame other blacks too, right? Not the inequality and deliberate discrimination in the school system, right? Please.

I went to school with blacks. Went to college with blacks. We sat in the same classrooms, learned the same things. We read the same textbooks, took the same test. I never saw any blacks deliberately discriminated against.
"Inequality and deliberate discrimination in the school system"? Do you have specific examples of this? I'm just curious.


Originally posted by truthseeka
The persistent, though covert, idea of white supremacy still plays a significant role in the socioeconomic status of blacks AND whites.

LOL! Covert? You're paranoid.


Originally posted by truthseeka
In other words, white students who are told they are superior to others, especially blacks, will do better on tests than blacks, who are told they are inferior to whites.

So, if we whites tell blacks they are superior, they'll do better on test scores?
Wow! Problem solved. Maybe you should start telling your black friends they are superior before they take any kind of exam or test. Let's see where that gets their test results.


Originally posted by truthseeka
I have white friends who have told me STRAIGHT UP that their families taught them white supremacy. MORE IMPORTANTLY, they said their families told them the reason blacks are, on average, in a lower socioeconomic bracket than themselves is because IT'S BLACKS' FAULTS THEY ARE INFERIOR AND THAT WHITE PEOPLE WILL ALWAYS BE BETTER THAN BLACKS.

I have black friends whose parents told them to "hate the white devil".


Originally posted by truthseeka
.......young black males on shows like Judge Hatchett who show me the other side of the coin. These kids said they would never amount to anything more than a life of crime because THEY'RE BLACK, AND THAT'S THE ONLY WAY FOR BLACK MALES TO SURVIVE IN AMERICA.

...and they teach eachother this, and to them "it's cool". Being a thug is a "cool" thing.
Good role models for the next generation.


Originally posted by truthseeka
THAT'S why I dismiss Alphonso Jackson as another patsy used to blame blacks for our situation.

Mr. Jackson's only trying to help black people. His mentality will help.
Yours will not. Your attitude will never get respect because it will keep you a victim forever. And as long as you cry victim, you will never rise above it, and nothing will change. Mr. Jackson just wants to see things change for the better, and if you can't see that your blinded by you're prejudice and hate.

[edit on 29-1-2007 by rocknroll]



posted on Jan, 29 2007 @ 05:38 PM
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Double Standards

One more thing occurs to me and I wanted to add it here. Regardless what subject we disagree on, we’re not going to be able to convince each other of our point of view. We hold separate and opposite points of view on this particular subject. We’re all intelligent people here with important and valid points, but we disagree on a major issue.

Whether we talk about Democrats and Republicans, conservatives and liberals, black and white, Christian and Muslim, old and young, male and female, none of it really matters because we’re not going to be able to convince the ‘other side’ of what we see as their flaws and miraculously convince them that we’re right.


And before you say that white people have no business telling black people what they’re doing wrong, you must be willing to also embrace that black people have no business telling white people what they’re doing wrong. And I see no shortage of that going around, either. We’re both telling the other race what to do. The double standards must be brought to light.

Years of past oppression give a group of people no ‘right’ to exercise double standards.

This is What’s Wrong with You

No matter how I try, I can’t convince Bush supporters that they shouldn’t be doing what they’re doing. I’m telling them what to do, even though I’m not one of them. It’s the same thing with race. I have opinions about what black people should do and I express it, even though I’m not one of them. I DO have a right. I don’t have to be black to have an opinion about blacks. And that’s all it is. My opinion.

Being black doesn’t mean that a person can speak for all black people, nor does it mean that they have exclusive rights to have an opinion about blacks or the black culture. There are certainly plenty of opinions circulated about whites and the white culture by blacks. So insisting that white people can’t or shouldn’t even talk about or have opinions on black people is another double standard.

Payback

The white race as an entity doesn’t owe a penance for punitive damages and we are not to blame for the choices that anyone else makes. We are each responsible for our own choices. Period. We are each responsible for taking advantages of the opportunities that life presents us. Some of us are presented few; some of us get them right and left. The worth of a man isn’t measured by the number of opportunities he’s presented; it’s what he does with the ones he gets that makes the difference.

Men oppressed women for years. And it still goes on. But that doesn’t mean that men must do something to make up for it. It's not necessary for them to overcompensate to make up for the oppression. Women should be treated equally. Period. Same with blacks. Whites don’t have to overcompensate to make up for slavery. Blacks should be treated equally. They’re not yet, but we’re getting there, just as we are with women, gay people and other once-oppressed people.

And do I need to say here that men express their share of opinions about women and how they should or shouldn't act (even though they have NO idea what it's like to be a woman) and women certainly have plenty to say about what men should do... We don't have to be something to have an opinion on it. And blacks are no exception. They aren't a special case. They are subject to the opinions of every other race in the world, just as we all are.

So I just wanted to pop in here to say that we each have a perfect right to express our opinion about any subject in the world. I don’t have to be a mother to say what I think about parenting. I can observe and learn. I can read and research and become quite educated on the subject of parenting. I will never be able to say what it feels like to be a parent, but I’m well within my rights to express my opinion of them and how I think children should be raised.


[edit on 29-1-2007 by Benevolent Heretic]



posted on Jan, 29 2007 @ 06:56 PM
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BH, that last post was great!
Yes, the double standard must be brought to light. Alot of people don't like to talk about it (it's social taboo), and many just flat out deny it exists.
Anyway, best post in the thread.
You just got voted "way above" from me.



posted on Jan, 29 2007 @ 07:24 PM
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BH,

Never have I heard (Read) it said any better!!!!

If I had a WATS, I would give it to you....

From the verbiage to the sentiment to the composition, it expresses so much of what many of us feel....

OUTSTANDING!!!


Semper



posted on Jan, 30 2007 @ 12:11 AM
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There seems to be a gigantic semantic disconnect when it comes to the latest issues presented in this thread.

It causes me to question what exactly some posters do not understand.

1)Some posters blatantly ignore the fact that three Black posters in this thread gave articulate and detailed reasons why Mr. Jackson's message is not to be believed.

2)Mr. Jackson, along with his ilk who profess this message, are funded and supported by conservative white operations who put forth messages like these to cause divisiveness.

(I know that "divisiveness" is what a lot of you fight against, but some of you exactly support what works for it. )

Case in point:

Joshua Holland's piece on Black conversatives and where they get their funding.


Scratch the surface of a black conservative group and you find a Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy

So Sowell and others – like Robert L. Woodson of the American Enterprise Institute, J.A. Parker of the Lincoln Institute, sometime presidential candidate Alan Keyes of Black America's PAC (BAMPAC), and Jackie Cissel of the Black Alliance for Educational Options – have little trouble finding cushy think-tank sinecures and generous support for their organizations. Many among this small group of prominent black conservatives are on several groups' advisory boards, adding to the appearance of a broad ideological movement. Cissel, for one, also serves as regional director for the African American Republican Leadership Council, a group whose mission "is to break the liberal democrat stranglehold over Black America," according to their web site. As Washington Post columnist Gene Weingarten reported last year, 13 out of the 15 members of the AALRC's Advisory Panel are white. They include such well known minority champions as the Free Congress Foundation's Paul Weyrich, Grover Norquist of Americans for Tax Reform, the Reverend Lou Sheldon, Gary Bauer of the Family Research Council, David Keene of the American Conservative Union, and Fox News host Sean Hannity.

What do people like Weyrich, Norquist, Bauer and Hannity have in common with the black conservatives? It's more than a common affection for low taxes and non-existent government regulation of business. Conservative activists understand that the GOP's history of tolerating bigots in their ranks and seeking out their votes, from Nixon's "Southern Strategy" to George H.W. Bush's use of Willie Horton to George W. Bush's courting of the confederate vote in the 2000 South Carolina primary, presents a problem for moderate voters of all races. Finding African-Americans to make the conservative case goes a long way toward wiping those memories from the public mind
[...]

And that's what seems to unite these seemingly disparate groups -- money. Every black conservative group I've mentioned – without exception – receives a significant portion of their funding (in some cases all of their funding) from at least three of four ultra-conservative foundations (the Lincoln Institute gets its share funneled indirectly through the conservative Hoover Institution).

The four are the usual suspects of the Right's political ATM: Richard Scaife's family foundations, Adolph Coors' Castle Rock Foundation, The John M. Olin Foundation, and the Linde and Harry Bradley Foundation. What's striking about these groups' underwriting of "minority organizations" is that some of them have at times displayed what many would consider a frankly racist agenda.



3)Black conservatives, like Mr. Jackson, are largely out of step with aspects of race relations. Instead, they present a message that "absolves" some from really looking under the surface at racial problems that still exist in America.

Case in point:

Deborah Toler's piece on Black conservatives:


Black Conservatives

Black conservatives, of course, deny that the policy positions of white conservatives are racist. They claim African Americans' fear of self-criticism blinds us to what is only principled racial criticism. Black conservatives choose to ignore, or consign to "water over the dam" status, Martin Kilson's trenchant observation that "at no point in the 20th-century have the claims of Black folks for political and social parity gained active support or sympathy from mainstream American conservative leaders, organizations, and intellectuals, whether religious or secular." Indeed, conservative whites are often active opponents of African American civil rights.


4)Mr. Jackson's message sponsors elitism and classism at its best:

Cornel West's piece critically analyzing the Black conservatives:


Unmasking the Black Conservatives

My aim is not to provide excuses for black behavior or to absolve blacks of personal responsibility. But when the new black conservatives accent black behavior and responsibility in such a way that the cultural realities of black people are ignored, they are playing ‘a deceptive and dangerous intellectual game with the lives and fortunes of disadvantaged people. We indeed must criticize and condemn immoral acts of black people, but we must do so cognizant of the circumstances into which people are born and under which they live. By overlooking this, the new black conservatives fall into the trap of blaming black poor people for their predicament.

The ideological blinders of the new black conservatives are clearly evident in their attempt to link the moral breakdown of poor black communities to the expansion of the welfare state. For them, the only structural element of political-economic life relevant to the plight of the black poor is the negative role of the state and the positive role of the market. An appropriate question to these descendants of slaves sold at the auction block is, Can the market do any wrong?


5)One forgets why Mr. Jackson and other spokespersons like him are often highlighted in the media. They portray a message that is palatable to the audience of the dominant culture. Some whites appeal to his message because it is simply appropriated on "focusing on the worst of black society" while forgetting the struggles Black people in general have to endure in order to be accepted within the American landscape:

The blog "My Left Wing" has a cautionary note why this might be the case:


My Left Wing

In summary, what we’ve seen here is something truly remarkable, and incredibly dangerous. For several decades now, black conservatives have played an important role in legitimizing the current ideology of colorblind racism. But this has largely been a limited and defensive strategy. The idea was basically to provide cover for covert racist policies and practices--either active or passive. This allowed for the survival-even thriving-of a conservative movement that is considerably more racist than the public generally is comfortable with.


The author, in essence, tries to describe the type of work that goes behind these messages:


The obscuration of continued white ambivalence and covert activation of animosity when politically desirable. (4) The employment of the "racism" frame, which can legitimately apply to members of any race vs. another race, as opposed to the "white supremacy" frame, which is specifically grounded in the enduring power relations of American history. (5) The rationalization and justification of renewed white supremacy, articulated in a faux colorblind language of values and principles, applied via a double standard...) The creation of mythic narratives that obscure and deny historical and scientific fact, (8) by dramatizing political struggle in terms of narcissistic white (heterosexual, Christian male) supremacist fantasies of virtue, omniscience, power, persecution, and paradise lost, (9) which freely rewrites real events into psychologically pleasing forms, and intertwines them with pure wish-fulfillment fantasy.


So, don't whip out your WATS just yet. I tend to think that there is more to be said about the messages and the intentions of Mr. Jackson. And I laud truthseeka for clearly stating the case why Mr. Jackson's message lacks credibility. It's just a shame that some like to circle the wagons instead of trying to figure out the more problematic tendencies of Mr. Jackson and what he said.





[edit on 30-1-2007 by ceci2006]



posted on Jan, 30 2007 @ 12:42 AM
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All that your long-winded response did was to illustrate that you could find some sources that agree with you. And what's with this "Some posters blatantly ignore the fact that three Black posters in this thread gave articulate and detailed reasons why Mr. Jackson's message is not to be believed"? So what? Is everyone supposed to believe you just because you're black? Sorry, you need a better resume' than that.

After all those words, all that your sources could manage to allege was that Republicans want to break the Democrats hold on the black vote. One has to wonder why you want to maintain that hold over blacks, instead of allowing them to choose for themselves.

That's about it. As far as your sources pretending to know the motives of the whites, let me borrow a phrase from your playbook: You ain't white, so you can't know!



posted on Jan, 30 2007 @ 12:50 AM
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Unfortunately, what is of import is the serious disconnect that seems to be happening when some posters do not understand what posters of the same race as Mr. Jackson are saying. It is true the sources examining Black conservatism help support a train of thought as to why Mr. Jackson's message should be ignored. That sole fact should be accepted.

However, the problem is the "acceptance" of another's opinion of what Mr. Jackson's message stands for--opposed to what is supported by those who fall under the spell of HUD Secretary's chicanery.

Perhaps that is the core problem of this thread.

If some white posters believe what Mr. Jackson says, it must be true.

If some Black posters do not support Mr. Jackson, nor his message, then there is something wrong with the Black community as a whole.

If some Black posters accept what the HUD Secretary is saying, then automatically they are endorsing the "right priorities".

If some Black posters do not accept what the HUD Secretary is saying, then they are supporting "victimization".

At least, that seems to be the message communicated by those who believe in Mr. Jackson's words.

Or else, it could be explained by Jonathan Scott's interpretation:



We know the answer: it’s called “white race” solidarity.


Could that be the cause of some who believe a man who openly practices a politically and morally bankrupt ethos supported by agendas working against the disenfranchised?








[edit on 30-1-2007 by ceci2006]



posted on Jan, 30 2007 @ 02:20 AM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
If some white posters believe what Mr. Jackson says, it must be true.

Who can deny the truth?


Originally posted by ceci2006
If some Black posters do not support Mr. Jackson, nor his message, then there is something wrong with the Black community as a whole.

And the 3 black people on this thread who are against Mr. Jackson have also stated that the black community suffers too much from poverty, undereducation, discrimination, etc, etc. It's obvious something's wrong. There is a problem.


Originally posted by ceci2006
If some Black posters accept what the HUD Secretary is saying, then automatically they are endorsing the "right priorities".

Who can deny the truth?


Originally posted by ceci2006
If some Black posters do not accept what the HUD Secretary is saying, then they are supporting "victimization".

Yeah.


Originally posted by ceci2006
At least, that seems to be the message communicated by those who believe in Mr. Jackson's words.

Ceci, before you go off on another "quoting" tangent.
Answer me this, short and sweet:
Mr Jackson said: "White folks have nothing to do with the fact that seven out of every 10 black children born in this country are born out of wedlock."
Ceci, explain to me how white people have anything to do with this? Literally?
It's a sad fact 70% of black children areborn out of wedlock. Ceci, how is that my fault?
Please explain without lots of rhetoric. Get to the point.
And this one:
Mr Jackson said: "Nor do they (white people) have anything to do with that fact that we have more black males in prison than we do in college."
Breaking the law will get you thrown in jail. Why is it my fault that more black males are in prison than college?


Originally posted by ceci2006
We know the answer: it’s called “white race” solidarity.

NO! It's called good advice.


Originally posted by ceci2006
Could that be the cause of some who believe a man who openly practices a politically and morally bankrupt ethos supported by agendas working against the disenfranchised?

Nope. It's the cause of people who care and are offering moral advice and support.



posted on Jan, 30 2007 @ 02:37 AM
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Originally posted by rocknroll
Who can deny the truth?


The truth according to who?



And the 3 black people on this thread who are against Mr. Jackson have also stated that the black community suffers too much from poverty, undereducation, discrimination, etc, etc. It's obvious something's wrong. There is a problem.


Yes, there definitely is. But we also said that Mr. Jackson's message is phony with detailed proof why. Why can't you believe that?



Who can deny the truth?


You can. And you are.


Yeah.


Most definitely not.



Ceci, before you go off on another "quoting" tangent.


A quoting tangent? I call it doing research for my position in this thread. I'm sorry if you can't do the same for your position.


Ceci, explain to me how white people have anything to do with this? Literally?


To tell you the truth, white people have babies out of wedlock. How is that the fault of any Black people? Literally?


It's a sad fact 70% of black children areborn out of wedlock. Ceci, how is that my fault?


It's a sad fact that most serial killers are white males, such as the BTK Killer, John Wayne Gacy and the Green River Killer. rocknroll, how is that my fault?



Please explain without lots of rhetoric. Get to the point.
And this one:
Mr Jackson said: "Nor do they (white people) have anything to do with that fact that we have more black males in prison than we do in college."
Breaking the law will get you thrown in jail. Why is it my fault that more black males are in prison than college?


Please explain without lots of rhetoric. Get to the point. Why do some White people fight tooth and nail to support the rhetoric of Mr. Jackson--despite his well-detailed corruption and duplicity? Why is it my fault that some whites cannot and will not do the research on this matter? Why is it my fault that some whites do not understand or care that institutional discrimination exists?


NO! It's called good advice.


So, it's good advice to have "white race" solidarity. Thank you for emphatically saying so. Now, I understand.



Nope. It's the cause of people who care and are offering moral advice and support.


Come again? How does Mr. Jackson care if the poor (especially poor Blacks) suffered with lack of housing under his watch as HUD Secretary? That too, is detailed in some of the "quoting tangents" I posted.




[edit on 30-1-2007 by ceci2006]



posted on Jan, 30 2007 @ 06:37 AM
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You have voted ceci2006 for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.



Originally posted by ceci2006
There seems to be a gigantic semantic disconnect when it comes to the latest issues presented in this thread.

It causes me to question what exactly some posters do not understand.

This was an excellent post. I have to agree with the disconnect you mention.



Some posters blatantly ignore the fact that three Black posters in this thread gave articulate and detailed reasons why Mr. Jackson's message is not to be believed.

This is the most important part of what you said. If posters admit that they cannot know the minds of black people, and ask why such-and-such happens, why can't they take our word, especially when we're all in rare agreement?

You and truthseeka called it: None of us trust this guy, and his argument is specious at best. I'm sure you feel like you're beating your head against a wall.

People ask why, you tell them, and they disagree. Then why did they ask in the first place?

People ask for sources, you provide them, and they ignore them, or accuse you of excessive quoting. What a waste of time and effort!

I'm fully aware that everyone will jump on me and castigate me for agreeing with you. So be it. I, for one, would like to be have an intelligent, well-informed conversation about race, but if everyone else is married to their old misconceptions, why bother?



posted on Jan, 30 2007 @ 09:41 AM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
There seems to be a gigantic semantic disconnect when it comes to the latest issues presented in this thread.


I'm pretty sure you're right. I'm not sure which are the "latest issues" but I do agree there's a giant disconnect going on here. And I suspect both "sides" are guilty of either not expressing ourselves clearly or coming at this with preconceived assumptions, emotions and agendas or both.




1)Some posters blatantly ignore the fact that three Black posters in this thread gave articulate and detailed reasons why Mr. Jackson's message is not to be believed.


I know you think it should, but, Your black-ness doesn't give you any more credibility that A. Jackson's blackness gives him... So, saying that there are 3 blacks saying the same thing means we should believe it doesn't quite cut it. I can find 10 blacks who agree with me. That doesn't make my opinion any more right. And blackness does not equal credibility.


Like any other subject, there are 2 sides, neither of which believe the other, no matter how much information is presented on either side. (See my previous post) Why should we believe you just because you're black?



2)Mr. Jackson, along with his ilk who profess this message, are funded and supported by conservative white operations who put forth messages like these to cause divisiveness.


A. Let me be clear. Mr. Jackson has absolutely NOTHING to do with what I believe. I'm not taking his word at all. I had my OWN thoughts about this issue years before I ever heard of Mr. Jackson or his parroted opinion. So, regardless his message or his reasons for putting it forth, I already thought along these lines. I didn't get my opinion from him or Bill Cosby or Morgan Freeman or any of their 'ilk'. I got it from my life experiences. Not from a book or an article or scholarly source except for my own experiences listening to black people talk. I hope that's clear.


B. I know there are a million sources out there that support your way of thinking, Ceci. You could quote scholars all day and find people who support your position. I get that. (And I actually think you have a really strong argument) But remember, when 9/11 fans are discussing the subject, the proponents of the "official story" can quote scholarly articles all day long that "PROVE" that 9/11 was done by Osama Bin Laden and his band of Al Qeada soldiers and that the US Government was completely innocent in any complicity.

Their position is at least as supported as yours is here.

My point is that unfortunately, I don't think your sources do ANYTHING to convince us that you position is true. I don't think there's any amount of proof that you can provide that will convince the "other side" (us) that what you, HH and truthseeka say is true as long as we're hearing something different from 98% of the black people we encounter in RL or documentary-type television.

With my reasoning, logical mind, I cannot understand how -- a pre-school black girl, given 2 dolls, one white and one black, and asked to pick the "nice" doll, she picks the white one "because it's white" -- she has not been given some message from her MOTHER that black isn't as good as white.

I cannot further reason that black people don't resent or hate white people because of this systemic message given to black children at such a young age. I cannot conclude that black people don't perceive white people as keeping them down or holding them back from being successful.



"I learned how easily we can internalize things," says Miss Davis, who made the documentary in 2005 through the Reel Works Teen Filmmaking after-school program. "Even at 4 or 5 years old, you get the message, you get what society values and what it doesn't."
Doll Test


But where did the preschooler get the message? I learned lots of things on tv when I was a preschooler, but whatever my parents taught me overruled that. The most basic information I learned as a child came from my parents and the loving, secure environment in which I was raised. And it's a parent's responsibility (regardless of color) to make SURE their children are getting the right messages to get them through life; to grow into adulthood with good self-esteem and pride about who they are.

As long as black women give in to the "shades of beauty" concept and insist on straightening their hair and lightening their skin (to more closely resemble white people), the rest of America isn't going to "get used to" and accept the black skin color as EQUAL to the light. I know black people have been through enough. More than enough. God knows they have. But there's more to be done. And that's to accept themselves as they are and assert themselves as black people. Not try to be more like white people so they can get along in the white world. They have to stretch it to be a black and white world (in this country).

I'm all for education. I think the responsibility of you and people like you is to educate people, not to try to force or prove your position. The more you push, the more your 'opposition' will push. That's pretty much all that's happening here. We're getting nowhere, pretty much.

People need to be educated on the fact that Halle Berry lightens her skin (if she does). They need to be made aware that Oprah Winfrey's hair doesn't naturally look like that. Those people, the black successful people, need to be called out! And shamed for not using their powerful positions to further acceptance of their race. We (white people) can't do a thing about that. If I wrote her a letter telling Tyra Banks to stop wearing weaves, she'd say, "What do you know about it, white girl"? And she'd be right. I don't know a thing about trying to pass for someone I'm not.

I just learned in the last year about hair straightening and skin lightening by black women. From YOU! Black women kept it such a good secret that I didn't even know about it! But you and HH educated me. That's one of the most valuable pieces of knowledge that has ever come from our pages of debate. And there's not a damn thing I can do about it. But you can.

I admit, SOME of what has formed my decision over the years happened years ago, but you should especially understand that racist behavior takes a long time to forget. What I've heard black people say about white people (to my face and behind my back [they thought]) sticks with me stronger than any source you could provide from a black successful author who does "studies" and writes about them. I believe your sources have their own agendas, just as A. Jackson's does.

How easy would it be for me to convince you that white people aren't racist anymore? Because of your experience with white people, I could give you a zillion sources saying so, but would you believe it? No. Because your personal experiences tell you otherwise.

Ceci, I believe you when you say that A. Jackson's motives aren't pure. I don't trust anyone in the current administration. I thought you knew that about me. But, like I said, this dude I've never heard of is NOT what formed my opinion on this matter. You're wasting your own time trying to prove (to me, at least) that high-ranking Republicans have an agenda to make the poor poorer and make the rich richer. And I seriously doubt your sources are going to convince strong Replubican-leaning members of anything either. They are pretty strong in their opinions.

And you also don't have to convince anyone that systemic racism exists. I KNOW it does. I've seen it too. And if others don't believe it, I seriously doubt that anything you could say would convince them. People who care, people like you and I, who care about racism and unequal treatment of all people, just need to keep plugging away, bit by bit to educate people and make things better.

I appreciate all the research you do and the effort and time it takes, but I'm not sure that's the angle that's going to convince anyone. I'm actually not sure that anything you could do could change people's minds right now. But I appreciate your efforts. Really.

I have to go make oatmeal now.
I have more to say (believe it or not) but will make another post.



posted on Jan, 30 2007 @ 10:03 AM
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Originally posted by rocknroll
Hmmmm, how does that explain the affluent, educated blacks that live in my area?
They go to good schools around here, too.


Thanks, yo; your posts give me a good laugh.
You actually said that there's no...
, I won't even respond to that one.



Well, I do know that you don't get a loan if you have bad credit. It's that simple. Doesn't matter what color you are. Bad credit, no loan.


Another priceless gem from you. I'm not sure if you mean black people don't have good credit or that banks wouldn't give blacks loans for houses. Either way, that's full of excrement.



I went to school with blacks. Went to college with blacks. We sat in the same classrooms, learned the same things. We read the same textbooks, took the same test. I never saw any blacks deliberately discriminated against. "Inequality and deliberate discrimination in the school system"? Do you have specific examples of this? I'm just curious.


I don't give a damn who you went to school with. I BET it wasn't a predominantly black school. Regardless, I'm sure you spent a lot of time looking for discrimination agaisnt blacks while you were there...




LOL! Covert? You're paranoid.[/qoute]

Strangely, I have to agree here. It isn't that covert at all. Look at the media; almost every hero in a story is white. Almost every leadership role in a sitcom/movie is white. Hell, most of the faces on TV or in movies are white.

And that's just fantasy world there. Try real life, where whites VISIBLY look down on you, make snide comments to you, and just plain act like they're better than you (this has happened to me a number of times in jobs I've had in the past). You know this is happening because of your race once you see them interact with other whites. They get the "equal" treatment.




So, if we whites tell blacks they are superior, they'll do better on test scores?
Wow! Problem solved. Maybe you should start telling your black friends they are superior before they take any kind of exam or test. Let's see where that gets their test results.


That's not the point, fo...guy. The point is that there are psychological implications of white supremacy that, though subtle, play a significant role in the lives of blacks AND whites.



I have black friends whose parents told them to "hate the white devil".


Though I don't believe you, I'll still respond to this one. It's quite likely that the parents of these fake friends of yours once lived in a segregated society, is it not?



...and they teach eachother this, and to them "it's cool". Being a thug is a "cool" thing.
Good role models for the next generation.


And how do you know this, li...guy? I'm sure white American society has nothing to do with it.




Mr. Jackson's only trying to help black people. His mentality will help.
Yours will not. Your attitude will never get respect because it will keep you a victim forever. And as long as you cry victim, you will never rise above it, and nothing will change. Mr. Jackson just wants to see things change for the better, and if you can't see that your blinded by you're prejudice and hate.


I have some choice words for you, but you know how ATS is with that kind of expression. My attitude will never get respect? I don't need respect from the likes of you, who can't even come up with a decent rebuttal to my post. That didn't stop you from running your mouth, though, but hey, that's what we're on this site to do.

Nothing will change as long as VICTIMS IN US SOCIETY point out that they're victims? Wow, how profound. I'm sure that past discrimination has NOTHING to do with the present condition of the average black American...oh, wait, it does, and they even have a term for it, total discrimination.

All this clown Jackson wants is for the whites who keep his pockets fat to keep the money coming in. There's a term for this that's somehow related to money...hmmm, can't think of it now. If you had read ceci's post (don't worry, I know you didn't), you would see what I'm talking about.

And, I'm not blinded by...what did you say, "you're prejudice and hate."
I'm learning that institutional racism is far worse than I thought as I dig deeper. You, you're living in some fairy tale world. At least you don't have to deal with widespread institutional racism, though; be glad for that as you continue to bash the "victims," as you pretend they are not.

[edit on 30-1-2007 by truthseeka]



posted on Jan, 30 2007 @ 10:11 AM
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Btw,

Thanks again, HH and ceci, for your great posts. HH, don't give up in your efforts to get a well-informed discussion going. Just ignore posters like rock and becky, who can only shoot weak slugs at you instead of giving you a decent debate. (maybe I should take my own advice...
)



posted on Jan, 30 2007 @ 11:50 AM
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I refuse to pander to the idea of what 'white posters believe' and what 'black posters believe'. And shame on ANYONE who does or tries to make this about "us" against "them". That's divisive and just furthers the argument that whites or blacks think with one mind. That's clearly not true or A. Jackson would agree with the black posters here and I would be a Bush supporter!


Now, to those who agree with Jackson's message:

I believe some of what Mr. Jackson says has merit. Not because he said it, but because I believed it before I ever heard of him. Some of what he said echoed my own already-established thoughts. If Ceci, HH and truthseeka don't believe a word of what he says is true (either because they think he's a shill or because they have always disagreed with his position) there's no way we're going to convince them of it.


Now, on to some other issues. I think it's important we get some questions answered on both sides of the issue to reduce the gigantic semantic disconnect that Ceci talked about. I'm going to try to do my part toward that.


Originally posted by ceci2006
Why do some White people fight tooth and nail to support the rhetoric of Mr. Jackson--despite his well-detailed corruption and duplicity?


I believe I answered this above. It's not that we support what he says, it's that his words support what we already thought. His saying it doesn't make it any more or less true for me.



Originally posted by ceci2006
Why is it my fault that some whites cannot and will not do the research on this matter?


1. We have done research. And, like you, we find research that supports our point of view and you discount it. Even our true life experiences are being discounted:


Originally posted by truthseeka
It's quite likely that the parents of these fake friends of yours once lived in a segregated society, is it not?


2. These are our opinions. Opinions that we've formed over years of personal experience. Opinions don't need or have research.

3. Nobody said it's your fault.



Originally posted by ceci2006
Why is it my fault that some whites do not understand or care that institutional discrimination exists?


Again, it's not your fault and I don't see where anyone says it is.

You're right. Some whites do not understand or care that institutional discrimination exists. You can't make someone understand or care about something. Only through education can they possiblybe brought to see it. And sometimes not even then. I seriously doubt that there's ever going to be a time when 100% of white people understand and care and believe the truth about racism. Some, you just have to let go of. After all, not even 100% of blacks believe it!



Originally posted by ceci2006
"white race" solidarity.


You're certainly free to believe this but it's not necessarily true and it certainly doesn't do anything to diminish the gigantic semantic disconnect that we agree exists here. White solidarity does exist, but that's not my reason for the fact that I happen to agree with other people here who happen to be white. And frankly, it's a little insulting, but I got over it. How would you feel if we accused you 3 of agreeing because of "black solidarity"? Wasn't it you who so strongly insisted that blacks don't think with one mind? Well, neither do whites.



Originally posted by HarlemHottie
I'm fully aware that everyone will jump on me and castigate me for agreeing with you.


Don't be so sure there little lady.
I happen to agree as well.



So be it. I, for one, would like to be have an intelligent, well-informed conversation about race...


I for 2!


And "well-informed" can be information not found on the Internet. Information from my experience in my life is also valid. Scholarly articles are fine, but they can't come CLOSE to the lessons I've learned in real life.

Secondly, I already believe that powerful groups (democrat AND republican) want to keep the underclass right where they are. My only real problem with this discussion (as I have told you in U2U) is the equating of the rich, powerful and corrupt in this country to the word "white" and the equating of the poor, underprivileged and impoverished in this country to the word "black".

If we're going to get the semantic thing straightened out, that has to stop. Because I'm pretty sure that all the white people in this thread aren't part of the rich, powerful and corrupt in this country (I know I'm not) and I'm pretty sure that all the black people in this thread aren't part of the poor, underprivileged and impoverished. So, talking about these groups as "black" and "white" simply adds to the semantic confusion heap.

Now, we can change our phraseology to something else like dominant culture and submissive culture, but not if it's a simple replacement for white and black. It must be acknowledged that there are blacks and Chinese and Latinos who are part of the dominant culture. And it must be acknowledged that there are white people who are poor, underprivileged and part of the submissive culture. Unless this is acknowledged, I'm not willing to go on. Because I simply know better. I don't participate in discussions about the best way to bomb Iran and I won't participate in a discussion that puts "whites" as the bad guy and "blacks" as the powerless victims.

But then it becomes less a discussion about race and more of a discussion about economics. So I'm kind of at a loss as to what this discussion would be about if we take race out of the equation.


Originally posted by truthseeka
(maybe I should take my own advice...
)


Maybe so.
I'd love to talk with you, but most of what I've seen from you are barbs thrown at other posters and pats on the back for people who agree with you. If you'd like to have an intelligent discussion, let's do that.



posted on Jan, 30 2007 @ 12:01 PM
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Originally posted by truthseeka
Btw,

Thanks again, HH and ceci, for your great posts. HH, don't give up in your efforts to get a well-informed discussion going. Just ignore posters like rock and becky, who can only shoot weak slugs at you instead of giving you a decent debate. (maybe I should take my own advice...
)

Yeah, you should take your own advice instead of just parroting what they say . You haven't offered a cogent thought here yet.



posted on Jan, 30 2007 @ 05:49 PM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
Yeah, you should take your own advice instead of just parroting what they say . You haven't offered a cogent thought here yet.


Why are you talking to me?

Did I ask you to respond to my posts? Do I somehow give you the impression that I want to engage in a discussion with you? If I do give you that impression, let me make it clear for you:

From what I've seen of your posts here in the past, I do NOT want to talk to you, or you to talk to me. In the future, keep my name out of your mouth. All you do is post weak ass posts that add nothing to the discussion. So, I would appreciate it if you don't respond to ANY of my posts, including this 1
.


Yes, I'm shooting hot slugs at you now, and no, I won't hit the ignore button. Direct any future lame comments in this thread to HH and ceci, who I'm sure eagerly await your profound words of wisdom in this discussion.



posted on Jan, 30 2007 @ 05:59 PM
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Originally posted by truthseeka

Originally posted by jsobecky
Yeah, you should take your own advice instead of just parroting what they say . You haven't offered a cogent thought here yet.


Why are you talking to me?

Did I ask you to respond to my posts? Do I somehow give you the impression that I want to engage in a discussion with you? If I do give you that impression, let me make it clear for you:

From what I've seen of your posts here in the past, I do NOT want to talk to you, or you to talk to me. In the future, keep my name out of your mouth. All you do is post weak ass posts that add nothing to the discussion. So, I would appreciate it if you don't respond to ANY of my posts, including this 1
.


Yes, I'm shooting hot slugs at you now, and no, I won't hit the ignore button. Direct any future lame comments in this thread to HH and ceci, who I'm sure eagerly await your profound words of wisdom in this discussion.

Too bad, pal. This is a public forum, and yes, I will respond to you. That's the way it works in a discussion forum. You can't just tell the females to protect you. Come out and debate like a man.



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