Demons? Demonology? Look at This Biblical Conundrum

The demon possessed man named Legion is found in Mark 5, 1-20. The story also appears in the Gospels of Matthew, Chapter 8, and in Luke, also Chapter 8. Matthew’s account varies substantially from the account in the earlier written Mark. Luke’s account is nearly verbatim of Mark and is therefore assumed to have been composed after Mark. I propose the story of Legion is a genuine conundrum for those Christians who are Fundamentalists, that is, those who claim the Holy Bible is not only to be seen as literal, but it is also inerrant. I deny both assertions.

Story. Jesus and others come ashore at a place called “ . . of the Gadarenes.” It is not mentioned again in the Holy Writ and it remains an unknown place to modern biblical researchers. Jesus encountered a man the local people believed was dangerous and who had “bound him in chains.” As further evidence of his demon possession, Legion had escaped from his bonds by breaking the chains. Superhuman strength attributed to demons. Yet, Legion was sufficiently coherent to ask Jesus for relief from the demons. For his part, Jesus was willing and able. Without future ado, Jesus ordered - exorcized - the unspecified number of demons to come out of Legion and to go into a herd of pigs grazing nearby. Note the storyteller did not use sheep or goats to receive the demons, but employed that one animal highly disdained by Jewish people, pigs! Conventional? Conformist? Or just convenient? We are not told the number of animals in the herd. (Over my lifetime I have heard numbers from 20 to 100 suggested.)

The herd of pigs were apparently capable (conscious) of knowing they had been infested by or inflicted with “demons” [by Jesus]. The whole herd of pigs determined to commit suicide by hurling themselves over the edge of a cliff and into the Sea of Galilee. As you may know, or by now guessed, pigs cannot swim. And thereby the demons inhabiting Legion met their demise.

Comments. We know today this is not a true story. Since Sigmund Freud we know there are no demons. That people are not possessed by strange and ugly creatures. We understand that people in the First Century AD or CE, did not understand mental disease or disorder, and instead relied on the conception of demons to explain strange, uncommon and erratic behavior by people they were witnessing first hand. But today we know better. So much for taking the story literally. I take this story to be a metaphor, and not a simile. You could argue it is a pun. Beyond that I will not go.

Conclusion. But this begs the real question. Did the readers of Mark believe him as he told the story, knowing all the time the story was not a literal recounting a actual happening. That it was apocryphal? It seems reasonable to infer the story was relating something important and understandable to them but not so readily apparent to us nearly 2,000 years later.

Other questions: 1) What is the significance of the pigs? 2) Why did Jesus use a two step procedure to kill the demons instead of just doing it outfight? 3) Did Jesus owe compensation to the owner of the herd of pigs? 4) Was this story meant to be an example for others to follow in the casting out of demons from possessed persons? 5) If “Yes” then why do not Christian psychiatrists keep a supply of pigs in their offices today?


Foot Note. Scholars believe Mark was written around 70 AD or CE. It is certain to have predated Matthew and Luke, because both of those gospels contain 80% of the content of Mark with other stories added. This does not mean the author of Mark invented his writing out of whole cloth. It means there was an accepted oral tradition that someone decided to write down - the books were not named until the 2nd century. This was just after the First Jewish Revolt had failed.

Many of the very early Jewish Christians around Judea and Jerusalem believed Jesus - perhaps mixing with the Jewish Messiah concept - would return in their lifetime to establish an earthly kingdom, an independent Jewish kingdom free of Roman domination. Before the Revolt, there was no felt need to reduce the stories in Mark to writing. OTOH, after Titus had squelched the Revolt inflicting many Jewish casualties and had destroyed the Temple, the world was changed forever. It was a brand new and uncertain ball game. DW


[edit on 1/3/2007 by donwhite]

I've looked at this post once or twice and I must say I'm rather sorry no-one has taken you up on it. Perhaps it would help if you made the gist of your argument a little clearer. Is it that the Bible should not be taken literally because it contains a story that contains a metaphor for mental illness, ie demonic possession? That won't fly with the God Squad, you know. Many of them believe in the literal existence of demons and they do so precisely because the Bible says such beings exist.

People -- speaking in general -- are incredibly ignorant and, what is worse, they are mostly unaware of how ignorant they are because, frankly, they've never taken the trouble to grasp just how much stuff there is in the world and how interesting it all is. In the absence of knowledge they can't be bothered to acquire, most people, even putatively well-educated ones, live lives predicated on belief. They don't just believe in a deity or a religious system, they believe all kinds of other crap too. Such people think -- often in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary -- that human beings are born equal and are basically good-natured, that everything happens for the best, that the stars govern our lives, that love is something 'spiritual', that cancer can be cured by eating broccoli or marzipan (or whatever), that society is to blame for our faults, failures and inadequacies, alternatively that our parents are, or our genes, and that in spite of all of the above and much else besides they are somehow in control of their own lives and behaviour.

Most people have yet to realize the full benefits of sapience. In its absence, they make do with superstition. And they are not amenable to reasoned argument.

I grow tired of Above Top Secret. Tired of nonthinkers talking at each other. Tired of ignorant people who conflate their puffs and pets of half-knowledge into theories a sensible nine-year-old would have trouble believing. I enjoyed reading your post because it was an attempt to rise above all that. Sadly, it got precisely the response I feared it would from the polis. Nada.

I'm thinking of changing my handle to Coriolanus.

Happy New Year, anyway.

[edit on 5-1-2007 by Astyanax]

Astyanax,

A bit quick to slam others for not responding aren't you? Maybe you could have taken up some points on the thread and expounded on them. Some people are just getting back from holiday and the thread is still top of board.

Seems more like you just wanted to vent some intolerant frustrations. Asking questions and responding is what discussion is all about, right. Unless someone has a different belief than you. Then they're not sapient! Tell me, where does sapience come from in your opinion? Is it a product of evolution?

People -- speaking in general -- are incredibly ignorant and, what is worse, they are mostly unaware of how ignorant they are

Are you a Person -- generally speaking?

donwhite, good to speak with you again.

Are you saying that some of the Gospels were copied from other Gospels, rather than being written by separate authors?

1) What is the significance of the pigs?

That's what I was wondering. You seem to place much more importance on them than I ever have!

2) Why did Jesus use a two step procedure to kill the demons instead of just doing it outfight?

If this was a spiritual lesson, then who are we to say. In other words, when you teach something, you usually give an illustration.

3) Did Jesus owe compensation to the owner of the herd of pigs?

If he was the Son of God, then he owns it all anyway.

4) Was this story meant to be an example for others to follow in the casting out of demons from possessed persons?

I don't think so. The Miracles done by Christ were to prove who he was, not to teach how to do it.

posted by HimWhoHathAnEar

Are you saying some of the Gospels were copied from other Gospels, rather than being written by separate authors? [Edited by Don W]

Yes and no. Each of the 4 gospels was written by different people at different times in different places and for different audiences. Secular scholars say Mark was the first written. Around 70 AD. Obviously the writers of Matthew and Luke approved of what the writer of Mark had reported. There were no copyright laws then. It is not to disparage the writer of Matthew or of Luke, which by the bye is regarded as the first half a a single manuscript that was later divided and the second half became our Acts of the Apostles.

This is from the same school of thought that postulates 3 authors of Isaiah, and 2 or 3 for Genesis. None of this has anything to do with whether or not the Scriptures are divinely inspired or the copies we have are inerrant. Free of mistakes. This school of scholarship draws no inference from the contradictions in the Holy Writ, such as the story of Jesus and the Tomb on what we now call Easter morning. Of the perplexing problem why Jesus would be called “of Nazareth” yet some claim he was born in Bethlehem.

That's what I was wondering. What is the significance of the pigs You seem to place much more importance on them than I ever have!

Pigs were forbidden to Jews. Although I think the episode was apocryphal, it was also true that Mark’s readers would known that, all the more so than I, and they would have known the significance and message in the story. It could be the story is a legend that had blossomed between 33 AD and 70 AD. An effort to enhance the reputation and powers of their dead leader. But the school of thought I subscribe to denies outright the story is true. And this school does not believe the local people who read it in Mark actually thought 100 pigs ran over a cliff and drowned.

Q. Why did Jesus use a two step procedure to kill the demons instead of just doing it outfight?
A. If this was a spiritual lesson, then who are we to say. In other words, when you teach something, you usually give an illustration.

Absolutely. On teaching by illustration. Some people are perfectly content to know what the Bible says. I want to know who, what, when, were, why and how.

See also the Jesus Study Group papers.

Foot Note: The first popular publication from the 19th century German School of Higher Criticism is the Th.D. dissertation by the composer and missionary to Africa, Medical Doctor Albert Schweitzer, under the title “Quest for the Historical Jesus.” This is where the Bible was first studied as an ancient document. The way the Dead Sea Scrolls have been studied.


[edit on 1/5/2007 by donwhite]

Of the perplexing problem why Jesus would be called “of Nazareth” yet some claim he was born in Bethlehem.

Wasn't he called that because he lived in Nazareth? Or, could it have been because the prophecies said he would be called a Nazarene? Which, knowing the story of Samson, would include; no alcohol, dead things, cut hair?

Pigs were forbidden to Jews.

Filthy, what better place for a bunch of unclean spirits to want to go?

However, we must make accomodation for the possibility that there was simply a herd of pigs in the area. I don't think the Jews were in any state of religious observance compared to a 'few' times in their past. Just look at the leadership of Herod, who usurping the Jewish leadership, was supplicated to Rome. I'm sure the Roman's enjoyed pork, bacon, ham, and an enterprising Jew might just take advantage of that for profit. Profit being the Idol of the moment I suppose.

It is absolutely amazing to me that people will still use the Bible as proof of any type of information. There is so much historical evidence that contradicts the Bible in so many ways it's hard to even know where to start. Well let me see, let's try. First of all if the Bible were true, then that would mean that the ancient Sumerian tablets could not exist physically in the real world. As they were created before the dawn of time, once again according to the Bible. Furthermore dinosaurs never existed millions of years ago either or at least the Bible would have you believe that they were around some 6000 years ago(carbon dating). This type of thinking is absolutely unbelievable, wait let me guess the smartest people of our time are all incorrect. Give it a rub. I mean seriously with all the scientific data we have that has so far, not been able to prove anything in the Bible as factual; people still use it to base modern-day opinions on. Wow! Now if somehow believing in the figment's of one's imagination makes one a better person and somehow not a schizophrenic, good for them. But unfortunately religions have been responsible for more deaths than anything in history. Holy crap! I mean that literally.

Before I start rambling on for pages and pages I might as well just make my point. I realize what you're trying to say is there are contradictions in the Bible, but the Bible itself is the largest contradiction in human history. So in short, it doesn't matter anyway. But I did enjoy reading this post.

untouchable,

It seems you have a chip on your shoulder. Why you feel the need to inflict that on others I can only guess. Your contribution to this thread is negligible IMO. Just another biased Rant. I think they have a whole forum for that in BTS.

The Church of England (Episcopal) Archbishop of Ireland James Ussher (Usher) (1581-1651) calculated the moment of creation to have been on October 23, 4004 BC. This was done in 1650. Sir James Lightfoot later re-figured and arrived at 9 AM on Oct. 3, 4004 BC. Both numbers of course, are based on the chronologies of the patriarchs and other historical events.


[edit on 1/5/2007 by donwhite]

I always thought that ATS's motto was to deny ignorance not to perpetuate it. it would appear that you are one of those people that perpetuate ignorance and see my views as somehow offensive towards you. sorry about that but the facts hurt, end until you can come up with some concrete undeniable proof that anything in the Bible is true I will continue with the chip on my shoulder because if it wasn't for people like me religions would run the planet and everybody would be screwed. I appreciate your comments though unfounded as they are.

Originally posted by donwhite
The Church of England (Episcopal) Archbishop of Ireland James Ussher (Usher) (1581-1651) calculated the moment of creation to have been on October 23, 4004 BC. This was done in 1650. Sir James Lightfoot later re-figured and arrived at 9 AM on Oct. 3, 4004 BC. Both numbers of course, are based on the chronologies of the patriarchs and other historical events.


[edit on 1/5/2007 by donwhite]

Historical events you say. LOL...... faith and science have no business mixing with each other. YOU may see these as historical events, when in fact they are nothing but regurgitated myths that nobody can prove. But seriously you got a good laugh out of me. You don't really believe that BS do you?

And HimWhoHathAnEar maybe you should start using your eyes too, it helps.

Originally posted by donwhite

Q. Why did Jesus use a two step procedure to kill the demons instead of just doing it outfight?

i think he had to first 'cast out' the demons from the human,

Jesus then had to contain the demons instead of leaving them running/flying amok in the atmosphere...
to short circut the possibility that they could inhabit or infect something else, be it humans or objects...
... 'jesus' then ordered them into the 20-100 swine.
so as to use those handy 'empty vessels', to become the demons 'prison' and soon-to-be 'death chamber'
[?but wasn't i taught spirit entities were immortal?]

now that says a lot about the human that was possessed by the legion of demons,,,
wow!...he was the 1st recorded (multipersonality) 'Sybil' in recorded history.
And a ratio is to be deduced from this lesson....
a human swine herder has as intristic value/capacity, as 20-100 swine
(because the demons in one man needed to be divided into the number of pigs available at the moment)

We also can discern a lesson that swine, considered edible/valuable by pagan Romans & others, somehow were not of any merit to the Jesus cult of followers & apostles...as we were not instructed that any compensation was made (or due) to the swine herder (an 'excuseable' terror act?)

perhaps this incident, and other incidents, contributed to the build up a negative sentiment in the population in Judea...and when the Pontius Pilate trial came about....the crowds roared 'crucify him!'


well, anyhow, you all take it from here...or whatever,
i'm just too exhausted to lay out any more of my case right now

see ya'll tomorrow

by untouchable
I will continue with the chip on my shoulder because if it wasn't for people like me religions would run the planet and everybody would be screwed.

All hail 'untouchable'! Saviour of the World.

You just keep on with your self glorification. Any contribution to the thread?


St Udio,

Your slapstick really does little for the conversation. Other than to confuse less attentive readers. However, maybe confusion and self gratification are your game?



[edit on 6-1-2007 by HimWhoHathAnEar]

Originally posted by donwhite

The demon possessed man named Legion

I was under the impression that it was the demon who responded “My name is Legion, for we are many.”

For his part, Jesus was willing and able. Without future ado, Jesus ordered - exorcized - the unspecified number of demons to come out of Legion and to go into a herd of pigs grazing nearby. Note the storyteller did not use sheep or goats to receive the demons, but employed that one animal highly disdained by Jewish people, pigs! Conventional? Conformist? Or just convenient? We are not told the number of animals in the herd. (Over my lifetime I have heard numbers from 20 to 100 suggested.)

From Mark chapter 5:

11A large herd of pigs was feeding on the nearby hillside. 12The demons begged Jesus, "Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them." 13He gave them permission, and the evil spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned.

The herd of pigs were apparently capable (conscious) of knowing they had been infested by or inflicted with “demons” [by Jesus]. The whole herd of pigs determined to commit suicide by hurling themselves over the edge of a cliff and into the Sea of Galilee. As you may know, or by now guessed, pigs cannot swim. And thereby the demons inhabiting Legion met their demise.

Or perhaps the shock of being infested with the demons caused the same madness that the man had exhibited. I doubt the demons expected this result which would be why they asked to be cast into the animals rather than just be cast out.

Comments. We know today this is not a true story. Since Sigmund Freud we know there are no demons.

There are many who would disagree with you. One does not have to be a Christian to believe that there are “evil spirits.”

Conclusion. But this begs the real question. Did the readers of Mark believe him as he told the story, knowing all the time the story was not a literal recounting a actual happening. That it was apocryphal? It seems reasonable to infer the story was relating something important and understandable to them but not so readily apparent to us nearly 2,000 years later.

Many people today believe that it was a factual story, who knows how many people in the past believed it. The story in Mark continues to say that the people in the area were frightened after this happened and begged Jesus to go away.

Other questions: 1) What is the significance of the pigs?

I covered that earlier.

2) Why did Jesus use a two step procedure to kill the demons instead of just doing it outfight?

The demons asked to be cast into the swine. Demons can’t be killed, they would have just been cast out.

3) Did Jesus owe compensation to the owner of the herd of pigs?

Mark says that the herders ran away frightened. The town folk asked Jesus to leave.

4) Was this story meant to be an example for others to follow in the casting out of demons from possessed persons?

It was meant to show the compassion that Jesus had for the sick and spiritually oppressed.

The healing miracles that Jesus performed were a large part of His ministry. The point is to show how followers of Jesus should be compassionate and take care of the less fortunate. This was a practice of the church until modern times when the government stepped in and decided who deserved care and help and who doesn’t.

posted by St Udio

Q. Why did Jesus . . I think He 'cast out' the demons from the human . . then to contain the demons . . 'Jesus' ordered them into the swine . . to use those handy 'empty vessels' to become the demons 'prison' and soon-to-be 'death chamber' . . “ [Edited by Don W]

That conclusion seems valid if not implicit in the story, but it may not be the only expiation.

We discern a lesson that swine [were] considered edible by pagan Romans [but] were [forbidden] to the Jesus cult of [Jewish] followers & apostles. . perhaps this incident contributed to the build up of a negative sentiment in Judea . . when the Pontius Pilate trial came about . . the crowds roared 'crucify him!'

Perhaps my editing [or Balderizing] lost your core meaning, but if not, then I respond thusly: I do not see this incident related to the crucifixion. I assume the Jerusalem crowd was 99% Jewish so they would have had no objection to killing a herd of pigs. IMO.

well, you all take it from here . . I’m just too exhausted . . see ya'll tomorrow

10-4, sleep tight.


[edit on 1/6/2007 by donwhite]

The problem is not the Bible it's the people trying to change the meaning to suite their God like persona so we get multiple meanings not from the Bible but through opinion. The Bible is clear that what is literal is literal what is symbolic, songs, parable and metaphor is what they say they are.
The literal is literal otherwise the whole book may as well be a metaphor and with that you create your own Bible that is why we have so many denominations of Christianity. You just have to take it as it is and how it describes as it is why try and change it, the person changes it not the writing it self.

People speak of Biblical evidence, a lot of history that has been dug up shows the Bible is geographically accurate even if people in the 1800's never knew where certain places were, as they could not travel to investigate. The Bible speaks about ancient empires and there is evidence they existed, how could people prove it in the lets say 1000AD when there was television or historical back up to say the Babylonians were not around at 300 AD when in fact they were around instead hundreds of years before Christ.? There was not much to prove in these days and only now we have proof the Bible is accurate. The Bible says there are more stars than the sand of the earth this has just been acknowledged by scientists, the book of Isaiah says the earth is like a circle that sits upon nothing, ancient civilisations know the world was round but how could they prove it? Also scientists today admit that there must be more dimensions that make up the universe and the BIBLE admits that there are spiritual realms where fallen angels and entities exists and a dimension known as the Abyss and heaven having many mansions. So these concepts are old and only now we are understanding them or have some faith in it because today it takes proof to believe and the Bible is not just about evidence it's to build strength through faith that is stronger than the material things we see as intended. Jesus revealed lots of things to the disciples but they kept that closed off to mankind, as faith through the spirit was the main agenda not technology that could have been build through some of the revelations that Jesus spoke of but was not recorded in the Bible.

Only because one can measure light in the acient times does not mean it does not exist as a particle and because we are still technologically babies as man kind does not mean other realms or super natual things exists like demons.


[edit on 6-1-2007 by The time lord]

[edit on 6-1-2007 by The time lord]

posted by darkelf

[The man named Legion] . . Darkelf: “. . it was the demon who responded “My name is Legion, for we are many.” [Edited by Don W]

Error made. Correction acknowledged.

[Jesus ordered the unspecified number of demons to come out of Legion and to go into a herd of pigs grazing nearby] Darkelf: From Mark chapter 5: The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned.

Error made. Correction acknowledged.

[The herd inflicted with “demons” hurling themselves over the edge of a cliff and into the Sea of Galilee . .] Darkelf: I doubt the demons expected this result which would be why they asked to be cast into the animals rather than just be cast out.

I can neither admit nor deny.

[We know today this story is not true . . ]Darkelf: There are many who would disagree with you. One does not have to be a Christian to believe that there are “evil spirits.”

True but that also speaks unfavorably of those who hold such unstainable views bordering on the irrational.

[Did Mark’s readers believe story . . Darkelf: Many people today believe that it was a factual story, who knows how many people in the past believed it. The story in Mark continues to say that the people in the area were frightened after this happened and begged Jesus to go away.

Simple embellishment to make the better story or the story better. This part, as the whole story, can be neither confirmed nor disproved.

Was this story to be an example for others . . Darkelf: It was meant to show the compassion that Jesus had for the sick . . (1) This was a practice of the church until modern times when (2) the government stepped in and decided who deserved care and help and who doesn’t.

1) I seriously question claims that the “more religious” were of much help to the poor and destitute in the past, and for sure prior to the 1800s and the Industrial Revolution. 2) As to the second statement, anyone who feels a charitable impulse can help people anytime they wish. America has see a steady increase in the number of homeless and helpless people since the 1980s. Mostly the religious seem content to pray for the needy. That God will take care of them.


[edit on 1/6/2007 by donwhite]

People speak of Biblical evidence, a lot of history that has been dug up shows the Bible is geographically accurate even if people in the 1800's never knew where certain places were, as they could not travel to investigate. The Bible speaks about ancient empires and there is evidence they existed, how could people prove it in the lets say 1000AD when there was television or historical back up to say the Babylonians were not around at 300 AD when in fact they were around instead hundreds of years before Christ.? There was not much to prove in these days and only now we have proof the Bible is accurate. The Bible says there are more stars than the sand of the earth this has just been acknowledged by scientists, the book of Isaiah says the earth is like a circle that sits upon nothing, ancient civilisations know the world was round but how could they prove it? Also scientists today admit that there must be more dimensions that make up the universe and the BIBLE admits that there are spiritual realms where fallen angels and entities exists and a dimension known as the Abyss and heaven having many mansions. So these concepts are old and only now we are understanding them or have some faith in it because today it takes proof to believe and the Bible is not just about evidence it's to build strength through faith that is stronger than the material things we see as intended. Jesus revealed lots of things to the disciples but they kept that closed off to mankind, as faith through the spirit was the main agenda not technology that could have been build through some of the revelations that Jesus spoke of but was not recorded in the Bible.

Only because one can measure light now scientifcally in the acient times they could not obviously it does not mean it did not exist as a particle and because we are still technologically babies as man kind does not mean other realms or super natual things don't exists like demons. We are just learning about the universe in our times and people should not make conclusions about experiences other people have had, they are clues to investigate not to ignorantly cover up and say I don't believe lets not look at that bright star in the sky becuase I think it's silly to think it could be a planet.

We are the most advanced things that can detect feel and experience that not even todays technology can detect, we are complex beings in a complex universe and we seem to rely on technology that has greater lenses than our eyes to show us things, where as the mind and spirit is a whole diffent ball game in experience. If people look closely at people and the reality around them you will wonder why maybe somethings are not as black and white as they seem and it's not.

[edit on 6-1-2007 by The time lord]

Originally posted by donwhite



Comments. We know today this is not a true story. Since Sigmund Freud we know there are no demons. That people are not possessed by strange and ugly creatures.

Nice post but I think many would disagree with this comment (including many denominations of the Christian church).

I have never seen demonic possession disproved across the board...although in our modern life IT is a lot harder to accept ,this does not make it Untrue.

edit for misquote

[edit on 6/1/2007 by kuhl]

I have found a problem with the story - The demons were in the town of either Gadera or Garasa (depending on which manuscript you read), the problem arises with the geographical fact that these towns are 8km and 50km respectively from the Sea of Galilee ( said drowning point for the demonised pigs). So it would be highly unlikely that 2000 pigs would rush 8km, never mind 50km (which would kill them before getting there).




G