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Ice Hockey: Habs vs. Leafs - Who is the better team

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posted on Nov, 11 2005 @ 06:03 PM
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Ive heard soo many debates between the HABS/LAUGHS. (oops did I say that). Obviously a teams success is based on history as well as the future.

Based on history:
Montreal Stanley Cups = 24
Toronto Stanley Cups = 13

I admit that history and Stanley Cup victories do not decipher which organization is going to have a better season. Based on the fact that Toronto has lost so many key players, and Montreal has kept a good solid team together for a few years, while picking up additions such as Kovalev, I think the answer is quite clear. If you look at the stats to start the season. Montreal is 12-3-1 -- Toronto is 8-6-2. You may make the argument based on the fact that Montreal is hot, and Toronto is cold, but based on history and the season so far, who could possibly put together an intelligent argument based on the Leafs being the better team?

[Edited on 11/11/05 by Strike]




posted on Nov, 12 2005 @ 07:43 PM
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Who's the better team? For tonight the answer is Toronto.



posted on Nov, 13 2005 @ 04:04 PM
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Toronto did win but I would still say Montreal was the better team in that game. But I think both teams played crappy. Very entertaining though. Great game! Congrats Leafs fans. Lets hope the game in two weeks is filled with the same excitment; but with nicer goals.

***Everything was great except for the Leafs fans chanting and being embarrassingly obnoxious during the speeches being made by Cournoyer and Moore. "Leafs Nation" should be appaled at how their fans acted during the pre-game ceremony. It was shameful.



posted on Nov, 13 2005 @ 04:26 PM
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Karlsberg, I completely disagree. You cannot base your assumption that Toronto was the better team. Game tying goal off of Theodores back, and a power play goal which was too many men on the ice. (Bad Player Management by MTL Bench Staff?)

I do have to agree that Toronto did win the game, and both teams were not at there best. I also have to admit that Toronto played CLOSER to their potential than the Habs did.

Based on the single game, I dont think you could honestly come to a conclusion who is the better team, but Im sure we can definetly come to an agreement on one point. We have an incredible rivalry between these two teams, and it's just going to get more intense as the season progresses.

I would also like to point out that Erik (Glass Jaw) Lindros was a non-factor and Domi was absolutely brutal. I have no idea how the Leafs not only put up with his ridiculous on-ice play, but praise him for it.



posted on Nov, 13 2005 @ 06:32 PM
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To be fair I heard most of the game and saw only a little in the 2nd and 3rd periods. Oh, and overtime, O'Neils goal was sweet.


That lucky goal was just the hockey gods evening the score. Montreal shouldn't have gotten a point last night. What little I did see was Ponikarovsky getting crosschecked into the netminder and HE got a penalty for interference rather than the Habs defenseman for the infraction which is being called everywhere this year. Without that goal, score during that PP, no overtime.

As to being classy, I heard the Habs fans booing Sundin and Lindros everytime they touched the puck. You can see a lot when listening to a game on the radio.

Nice try. I wonder what the score would have been without the 6th man on the ice with the Habs. That being a French ref, Stephane Auger.
The play by play said that Domi had been on the ice in front of the Habs net getting crosschecked in the back, no call. Again.


Karlsberg will be away for a few days so I guess I'll have to pick up the slack for a while.



posted on Nov, 13 2005 @ 06:38 PM
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So you're claiming the Habs are a better team? And they can't beat the lowly Leafs even with the ref in your pocket. Kinda reminds me of Canada's womens team in the last Olympics.


Apologies to my American friends here but it is true, it says:

"The Canadians opted for a physical game and incurred 13 penalties, including eight in a row".

Source BBC:

news.bbc.co.uk...

[Edited on 11/13/05 by truenorth]



posted on Nov, 14 2005 @ 08:23 AM
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Originally posted by truenorth


As to being classy, I heard the Habs fans booing Sundin and Lindros everytime they touched the puck. You can see a lot when listening to a game on the radio.


Lindros gets booed in Montreal, and understandably so. People in the province of Quebec are still sensitive to what he did to the Nordiques. The hockey memories of people in Quebec are not short. Now this might open up a whole new debate, but I would argue that their is a lot more substance and thought behind the Habs fans booing compared to when the Leafs fans were booing two former greats (as they were saying the most important speech in their lives and enjoying perhaps one of the best moments of their lives). Why would anybody boo that??? Again, it was shameful and plane stupid. Even when Habs fans booed the US anthem a few years back, that wasn't just random booing, there was significant concern behind those boos. You may not agree with that, and that's your right; just like its the right of the fans to express themselves when the feel strongly towards something. Therefore if the Leafs fans on Saturday felt strongly that Yvan Cournoyer and Dickie Moore were bad people or bad players their hockey intelligence must be questioned. I don't think that was the case, I just think they don't know how to respect the game (and for sure they don't stand for all Leaf fans, I realize that).

And yes, the ref missed a few obivous calls. But Auger missed calls both ways. There were a few pull downs by the Leafs that went un-called. The "Maple Whiner" syndrome is re-apprearing. This time though, Leafs fans are complaining even though they won. Unreal.



posted on Nov, 14 2005 @ 08:36 AM
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Oh, and I would guess that people were booing Sundin as a form of retaliation from the pre-game ceremony. Because he wasn't getting booed that much (like 70% less than Lindros was). I don't remember him ever getting significantly booed in the past in Montreal. However, I must admit that Montreal also has some direspectful obnoxious fans, but I would say the great majority back up their actions at the game with substantial reasons.

And that's my rebuttal and rant on fan behaviour at the game.
Cheers



posted on Nov, 14 2005 @ 08:47 AM
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I think you have a little double standard going here, it's OK for Habs fans to boo but when the Leafs fans do it it's a bad thing? Secondly I find it hard to believe the Leafs fans would Boo Cournoyer and Moore, they provided a lot of great entertainment to us all. There might have been a few ignorant fans but as a whole I would imagine that the Leafs fan would have applauded the pair.

Don't get me wrong about Lindros either, I'm no fan of his as I remember his whining that he wouldn't play with Quebec:

www.sportztawk.com...

I'm just saying, play with one standard man.



posted on Nov, 14 2005 @ 09:22 AM
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Originally posted by truenorth
I think you have a little double standard going here, it's OK for Habs fans to boo but when the Leafs fans do it it's a bad thing? Secondly I find it hard to believe the Leafs fans would Boo Cournoyer and Moore, they provided a lot of great entertainment to us all. There might have been a few ignorant fans but as a whole I would imagine that the Leafs fan would have applauded the pair.


Don't get me wrong about Lindros either, I'm no fan of his as I remember his whining that he wouldn't play with Quebec:

www.sportztawk.com...

I'm just saying, play with one standard man.


There is one standard. You're not reading my reasoning. Its ok for all fans to booo, but for a reason that has some substance. Leafs fans can boo all they want, but not just for the sake of booing.

And it was not a few ignorant fans, it was about 70% of Leaf fans at the game (I'd say 95% of the Leaf fans in the upper bowl were booing Moore and Yvan). Trust me , I was there. I was with my friend who is a Leaf fan and even he said that he was so embarrassed. If it was a few ignorant fans, I would let it go no problem.



posted on Nov, 14 2005 @ 10:55 AM
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Originally posted by shaunc7
There is one standard. You're not reading my reasoning. Its ok for all fans to booo, but for a reason that has some substance. Leafs fans can boo all they want, but not just for the sake of booing.

And it was not a few ignorant fans, it was about 70% of Leaf fans at the game (I'd say 95% of the Leaf fans in the upper bowl were booing Moore and Yvan). Trust me , I was there. I was with my friend who is a Leaf fan and even he said that he was so embarrassed. If it was a few ignorant fans, I would let it go no problem.


That's not logical at all. One would have to be a mind reader to know a persons motivation.

Secondly, I find the second part hard to believe BUT my next door neighbor was at the game, I'll confirm it with him.



posted on Nov, 14 2005 @ 11:51 AM
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I am enjoying this give and take truenorth.


you said "That's not logical at all. One would have to be a mind reader to know a persons motivation. " C'mon , lets be reasonable here. There are collective feelings felt by a fan base. Of course people don't boo random players because of purely personal reasons. Its a general consensus, effected by knowing the game, the history, the atmosphere of the game, that makes fans and react in the ways that they do. That is why I am so confused at why the Leaf fans were booing Yvan and Dickie. The only thing I can think of is that 18 year old obnoxious male teenagers will boo anything, but it still doesn't justify it.

Therefore, I am telling you with great confidence that the collective motivation from Habs fans booing Lindros was due to what he did in and to Quebec City. What was the collective motivation for the Leafs fans booing Cournoyer and Moore?
(again, I don't think those actions would be defended by most Leaf fans, but still, the booing occurred and it was shameful.



posted on Nov, 14 2005 @ 05:35 PM
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I'm not quite getting what you're saying shaunc7, are you saying that knowledge of the NHL and it's traditions don't exist outside of Montreal? That's what it seems to me and I'll put my knowledge about the NHL, any division, any team, past and present, up against anyone.

BTW, I talked to my neighbor and he said that there was nothing but applause for Cournoyer and Moore. You must have been at the other end of the rink. That led me into a search because I saw something out of place here. Why would Leafs fans boo greats of the game? They didn't according to a person I know that was there BUT you said that it did. Damn what a quandry. I looked further:


Originally posted by shaunc7
I totally agree with you. The Toronto media has always overrated players. Names like Wendel Clark and Daryl Sittler come to mind. Yes, better than average players, but not superstars compared to other great players.


www.legendsofhockey.net:8080...

Sittler, more than a point a game, before it was watered down.

Most points in a game-10. I think that is even a record Gretzky didn't break.

Most goals in a playoff game-5.

Hell, I'll just give you the link:

www.darrylsittler.netfirms.com...

And according to you Daryl Sittler is over-rated. Hmm, you might want to crawl out from the programming of Les Habitant and realize there is a big league out there. Your logic is flawed. Personally I think you may be a little biased. Not here, I pointed out a great French Canadian(FC) player in Perrault, I have NO problem with FC players. I could point out more, young and old.



posted on Nov, 14 2005 @ 07:24 PM
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"Personally I think you may be a little biased. Not here, I pointed out a great French Canadian(FC) player in Perrault, I have NO problem with FC players. I could point out more, young and old."

Not once did french or english even cross my mind. I am actually quite surprised to see that written. Its definitley not a french/english thing.
And when did I say that tradition's don't exist outside of Montreal? Detroit and certainly New Jersey in the past decade have had great winning traditions. Certainly one cannot think of tradition without thinking of Edmonton too and even the Leafs of the early 1960s. But this thread was not really concerning that topic.
I think we are both asking the same question now: you wrote "Why would Leafs fans boo greats of the game?" That's exactly what I was trying to figure out. Also, perhaps you neighbour was in the lower bowl? If not, to be more specific, the majority of the Leaf fans that were boing or being vocally obnoxious during the ceremony were in the Molson X zone (encompasses roughly 8 or 9 sections wrapping around from one end of the blue line to the other on the South side of the building). I think that perhaps it was just a bunch of rowdy young fans being obnoxious. I just wanted to point out that when people such as myself say they have their reservations about Leafs fans, there is a reason. My buddy from Orangeville finally understood this after seeing in person when certain Leafs fan lacked any respect for Moore and Cournoyer. I think it would be very irresponsible for me to generalize Leafs fans, but I just wanted the Leaf fans reading this to know that their are legitimate reasons why others might generalize; and Saturday night was case and point.



posted on Nov, 15 2005 @ 06:59 AM
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Originally posted by shaunc7
"Personally I think you may be a little biased. Not here, I pointed out a great French Canadian(FC) player in Perrault, I have NO problem with FC players. I could point out more, young and old."

Not once did french or english even cross my mind. I am actually quite surprised to see that written.


Why would you be surprised by this? It's part of the history of the game, tradition. Montreal had dibs on the FC players, it's part of what made this rivalry that it is. I didn't say it was a bad thing.

Your buddy's from Orangeville? That half an hour from me. :tum:



posted on Nov, 15 2005 @ 04:27 PM
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shaunc7 I was seriously looking forward to continueing this discussion today, I hope I didn't offend you, it was not my intention. It is a fact that the rivalry between the Habs/Leafs was forged by the French/English differences. Old days. That's what it was between the 2 Canadian teams(think Original 6). Of course one played for the other at times but it was what was prominent. It may exist till today. No French players on Toronto and 10 on the Habs roster. This has nothing to do with politics, all to do with heritage. This is what the rivalry was born from, thus the FC players of choice for the Habs. Makes sense to me.

Helluva rivalry, not up there with Man U vs. Liverpool but we don't beat the # out of each other. Well, not anymore.


BTW, I'm a Bluenoser, not from Ont(just live here). AND my Grandmother's name was Roseanna Marie Gallant.



posted on Nov, 15 2005 @ 06:09 PM
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BTW, I'm a Bluenoser, not from Ont(just live here). AND my Grandmother's name was Roseanna Marie Gallant.


Hey truenorth, no worries at all. I was born in Montreal, grew up in Brampton now I'm back in Montreal for a few years. My first language is english but I can also get by en francais. I was just surprised to read that aspect of your post because I never looked at it in that way.
Regarding 10 Canadiens on the the Habs. I think these days it has gone beyond the rivalry and this is the case simply because the Quebec population pressures the organization to sign as many french-canadiens as possible. But I wouldn't go as far as saying the rivalry was "forged" by french/english differences. On the ice, their are no differences, the puck has to pass the line for both sides. But I do see what you're getting at though.

So no offence taken at all.

Cheers



posted on Nov, 15 2005 @ 06:31 PM
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Many things have changed in the last 25 years as other nationalities have come to play in the NHL. At first it watered down the league, read, the 80's. Now it's to the point that we would be missing players like Ovetchkin(rookie of the year). Our game is the most international of the big 4.

BTW, 65% of all NHL players are still Canadian. See the Lightning, 17 out of 23. With St. Louis, Lecavileir, Andrychuck. All Canadian. It's different today but it's all Canadian. This all came from the Habs/Leafs rivalry. I may be looking past newer Canadian teams, Edmonton(pfft), Calgary, Vancouver. I miss the Jets, that team shouldn't have ever left, still can't figure that one out.

BTW, I enjoy watching the Habs, good skating team. I'm just not sold on Theodore.



posted on Nov, 15 2005 @ 08:01 PM
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I miss the Jets too. I wouldn't be suprised to see the Hurricanes or Thrashers move back to either Winnipeg or Quebec city within the next ten years. Both of those cities could support and NHL team and what's more is both already have big arenas.

I am not sold on Theodore either. The trade rumour rumblings have quieted down here in Montreal. A few weeks ago every other word out of the sports radio DJs was Luongo. But I wouldn't be surprised to see Gainey add a big name half way through the season, he has the cap room. I could definitley see the Habs going deep in the playoffs. But its still too early to tell. But wow, does Saku Koivu look great this year!



posted on Nov, 16 2005 @ 02:12 PM
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Hey Guys

Looks like I missed an interesting debate. My 2 cents if you will.

I don't understand the booing of Eric Lindros. Isn't Peter Forsberg and 4 other guys an excellent substitute? Eric missed out on 2 cups going to Philly. Who knows maybe Colorado doesn't win those cups without him. If you truly behind Quebec City then you should boo the whole league for stealing the team away. I think if fans in Quebec got to enjoy Forsberg a little nobody would even remember the deal that brought THEM two cups. It's like my ex-girlfriend says, get over it. I did and i'm way happier.

As for the booing of Habs greats, what you wrote about Sittler and Clark is just as bad.




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