Some americans need to get a grip on reality!

Originally posted by johnsky
Wake up! And use democracy for what it was designed for! Allowing the people to think for themselves, and alter the path of their country accordingly.

And once again you show your ignorance with this statement. You seem to be under the impression that the majority of Americans think like you do and their opinions are simply "suppressed". Did it ever occur to you that most Americans just dont agree with you? Oh! but that means you would have to doubt your own way of thinking!

As someone else said, the United States is always in the limelight. Everyone looks to the US to see what we are doing. This causes the envy/hatred that is so damn rampant.

What are you doing about Iraq?

What are you doing about Darfur?

Blah, blah,blah.

Well europe, I have a suggestion for you. Get off your dead asses and do something yourselves! You seem to be stuck in that post WW2 habbit of just sitting around and letting someone else handle it. It just so happens it's the US who gets stuck "doing something about it."

Take some damn initiative and handle some world affairs on your own. Or does that put to much strain on your fragile socialist utopia?

Just as it seems, most Americans reading this post will guess that this thread creator is a " d!ck from UK, moron from france, Nazi from Hitlerland,

Based on Experiance, MOST people who do write the original post are from the UK, france or Germany. Go browse the Airliners.net forum and wou'll see what I mean (It really cracks me up)

Oh, and I'm in no way American.

Perhaps I should mention that the murder rate by guns in the USA is about 110 per million per annum, or about 30,000 per annum for the whole country. So the deaths on 2001-9-11 equalled a typical 5 weeks of murders in the USA.

And that has anything to do with 'the world hating America?'. Looks like Anti-American drivel to me. HELLO? Since when does a few morons in power represent 300 million people? I guess you think all Iraqi people are exactly like Saddam?

Sorry, but only like two of your points are valid. I'll leave it to everyone else to reply to your other posts.

Originally posted by silencer in another threadI have a problem with people sterortyping and making claims about Islam and muslims without any real proof or credible source to back up their claim. Constantly spewing hatred or attacking members personally is not considered 'Freedom of speech', it called Ignorance.

So it's absolutely OK to Stereotyping Americans right?

And no, we don't really give a **** what you do with your local laws,

Silencer does.

WE DONT GIVE A FLYING F*** HOW YOU RUN YOUR LIVES WITHIN YOUR BORDERS, we care about the hundreds of thousands of innocent mothers, fathers, sons, and daughters who are being SLAUGHTERED around the world this very second because of how you play your cards outside your borders!

Your playing cards eh? Explain to me how the American people can change what is happening with the Iraq war and Afganastan?

I guess all you guys represent the whole of your countries?

[edit on 25-12-2006 by PisTonZOR]

[edit on 25-12-2006 by PisTonZOR]

[edit on 25-12-2006 by Maverickhunter]

Originally posted by johnsky
What jealousy? Nobody is jealous of the US, you just keep being told that.
And no, we don't really give a **** what you do with your local laws, it's what you do to other countries that makes un pissed off with your government.

Oh yeah, and we dont care what you think of our local laws. Our local laws are designed to keep us safe. We have congressmen and legislators make the laws, the congressmen sends a bill to get the law made and the legislator makes it, and it's only for us and ourselves, it's called a LOCAL LAW FOR A REASON, it's not like it's for them. It only applies to us. I dont care if you arent jeleous of that it's your choice. Are you dumb though? Do you even know wtf you're talking about?

*imagines this poster as some ji-haid guy or some normal guy going off about the gov't on the subway*

Hmm... the government.

This is why we call you blind and ignorant. Every time we answer your OWN question as to why you are hated by the rest of the world... you ignore what we are telling you, then turn around and say we're jealous... that we are angry about what you do within your own borders... WE DONT GIVE A FLYING F*** HOW YOU RUN YOUR LIVES WITHIN YOUR BORDERS, we care about the hundreds of thousands of innocent mothers, fathers, sons, and daughters who are being SLAUGHTERED around the world this very second because of how you play your cards outside your borders! We are not JEALOUS of that, it's disgusting, and certainly not something we would want our countries to be guilty of!

That's none of your business what we do. Stop being nosy about it. IF you dont like what we do it's either our way or the terrorists. You support the resistance, you support terrorism. We dont run lives within our borders. We dont slaughter hundreds and thousands of people, that's their fault, it's their policy to slaughter those people, we dont make the policy they do.

We are outside your country, we cannot change how you act towards other countries. The last and only resort we can take to make you wake up is to wage war... but war is something most of us are against. So the only people who can change the fact that you are responsible for millions of lives is yourselves!

People who think this are crazy people who dont live in our country, again do you even know wtf you're talking about?

1. You dont have a vote
2. we can do what we want.
3. it's manifest destiny, you cant stop it.

Wake up! And use democracy for what it was designed for! Allowing the people to think for themselves, and alter the path of their country accordingly.

1. first of all, we live in a republic.
2. We cannot change it as much as we have control over it.
3. That's not up to you to decide.

[edit on 25-12-2006 by Maverickhunter]

double post

[edit on 25-12-2006 by Maverickhunter]

triple post

[edit on 25-12-2006 by Maverickhunter]

Stop! Hammer time!

As an American what I've been seeing (particuarly from our friends across the pond in the UK) is not that many people actually hate America. It's mostly a lot of propaganda or miscommunication from what I've been seeing. I'm pretty sure that their beef is with our government, which I can't exactly blame them for.

Same as how I personally dislike Britain's government and personally disagree with their government's lack of respect for privacy. And if the discussion comes up I'll voice my opinion on it. It's only fair. However this comes with the fact that like a Brit suggesting that we adopt health care it's not being forced upon anyone. And even though I strongly disagree with a lot of what the British government does I still absolutely love the British people and their culture. Even if they couldn't cook a good meal if the Queen's life depended on it :d:.

I'm not a fan of French culture, I dislike their government, but I honestly don't hate the French. With a bit of research I could probably find things I dislike about any government in the world that's currently in power, but I would never in a million years hate a country for it's government's actions.

I know for a fact that the average Iranian isn't the raging jihadist that the media would portray them as. I'm willing to bet that the average Iranian doesn't really give a crap about Israel and would rather not get bombed over an international dick measuring contest between our respective leaders. Kind of like how the average American doesn't truely care about Israel, and we'd rather not bomb innocent Iranians over some issue that could probably be resolved by a bunch of kindergarteners before our leaders figure it out.

So all in all I can't say I blame the people of the world for disliking our government's policies. After all, we have elections every two years because of the fact that even the American public (especially the American public actually) can't stand it's current policies. However it's just downright ignorant for anyone to actually hate us for the way we live out our lives. If you don't like our obesity rates or our healthy disregard for gun control then good for you, don't immigrate to the US. Or if you do then simply vote instead of being a hater.

Am I right in saying that most people just have beef with our government instead of the country and it's people? I'd like some confirmation from some of our international friends.

There are 6 billion "realities" on which we could get a grip.
I prefer my own version of reality. Most others probably prefer their own as well.

I "know" why we have a PR problem in the world.
And in my reality, it's because we are DOERS, and not WATCHER/WHINERS.

I'm an American, and proud of it.

Yup, we are the greatest nation on the face of the planet.

Originally posted by spacedoubt

There are 6 billion "realities" on which we could get a grip.
I prefer my own version of reality. Most others probably prefer their own as well.

But, isn't there really 1 reality, and 6 billion+ perspectives on reality?

My point is that while everyone may have their own opinions on what is happening, what ought or should happen, _everyone_ has to deal with the reality of actions taken.

Moral relativism doesn't get far when trying to solve problems...

I "know" why we have a PR problem in the world.
And in my reality, it's because we are DOERS, and not WATCHER/WHINERS.

And in reality, people (everywhere) should be both. Praxis - an intersection of action and theory.

If we 'do' without any 'observation/theory', then we've no logic in our actions; and conversely, if we 'observe/theorize' without 'doing' anything, then we're plotters who have accomplished nothing.


See, my biggest problem with the world (doesn't really matter which country) is that we are inconsistent with the ethics/morality that we present, and the actions that follow. That makes us, humanity, hypocrites.

Originally posted by Diseria

Originally posted by spacedoubt

There are 6 billion "realities" on which we could get a grip.
I prefer my own version of reality. Most others probably prefer their own as well.

But, isn't there really 1 reality, and 6 billion+ perspectives on reality?

My point is that while everyone may have their own opinions on what is happening, what ought or should happen, _everyone_ has to deal with the reality of actions taken.

Moral relativism doesn't get far when trying to solve problems...

I would have to agree there. Without getting into the whole multiverse theory.
A single reality, But who can define it for us? Who can say that THIS is the correct interpretation of reality? And thats where the discussions, the agrguments take root. Human stubbornness, and Ego, which I believe are hardwired into our brains. Are hard to overcome.

Moral relativism truly gets us nowhere, but in trouble.
In this case, I think Moral relativism is nothing more than an agreed upon "group reality". Such as a religion, or a political party. We're a hard haeded race of beings.
In the beginning, those attitudes made us successful.
But in Modern times, we've turned on each other.

Originally posted by silencer
Just as it seems, most Americans reading this post will guess that this thread creator is a " d!ck from UK, moron from france, Nazi from Hitlerland, islamo fascist, anit-american jihadi, freedom hater from China, loather of richest nation from Africa, scum in Latin America, stinky sh!t from Russia, leftist from Cuba "...the list is endless...!!!

I really don't care where you are from. Have a good day.

Originally posted by spacedoubt
A single reality, But who can define it for us? Who can say that THIS is the correct interpretation of reality? And thats where the discussions, the agrguments take root. Human stubbornness, and Ego, which I believe are hardwired into our brains. Are hard to overcome.

First, I'd say check out 'Being Good' by Simon Blackburn. (it's reasonably cheap, about $10 and a thought-provoking read. I've only made it through the first section, in which egoism and moral relativism are discussed as 'threats' against ethics...)

Example:

More importantly, it is usually not at all certain that the values we are upholding are so very alien to the others (this is one of the places where we are let down by thinking simplisitically of hermetically sealed cultures: them and us). After all, it is typically only the opporessors or spokespersons for their culture or their ways of doing it. It is not the slaves who value slavery, or the women who value the fact that they may not take employment, or the young girls who value disfigurement [mutilation of genitalia]. ... Just as victors write the history, so it is those on top who write their justification for the top being where it is. Those on the bottom don't get to say anything.

(p. 27)

Moral relativism truly gets us nowhere, but in trouble.
In this case, I think Moral relativism is nothing more than an agreed upon "group reality". Such as a religion, or a political party. We're a hard haeded race of beings.
In the beginning, those attitudes made us successful.
But in Modern times, we've turned on each other.

But, is it really even a group reality? because even within the groups, there are splits... as Blackburn says, moral relativism becomes subjectivism... and in the end does absolutely nothing to solve problems. "That's just your opinion" kills the dialogue...

And precisely because we've turned on each-other, is why I think we need to turn on moral relativism. Tolerance is great, but to tolerate _everything_ is, well, intolerable. (And the fact that I'm pushing this, me a recovering-moral-relativist, cracks me up!!)

We have to _at least_ be able to set aside moral relativism to entertain other possibilities.. humans have the capability -- I just don't understand why we're not engaging it.

No external force, no one person, decides how everyone ought to live. That has a very real possibility of becoming oppressive... (the difference between morality and moralism).. it's the job of humanity to figure this out.

We have to _at least_ be able to set aside moral relativism to entertain other possibilities.. humans have the capability -- I just don't understand why we're not engaging it.

No external force, no one person, decides how everyone ought to live. That has a very real possibility of becoming oppressive... (the difference between morality and moralism).. it's the job of humanity to figure this out.

I do agree with your analysis.

The one factor that you have not entertained is that with the exception of a few, very few, individual thinkers and independent intellects, humanity desires, no, needs/wants to be led. Now, don't everyone get their hackles up, if that statement insults you, then you fall under the category of a free thinker or individual intellect.

Human kind has many unused abilities, talents that thus far are completely undiscovered. Humanity also has many failings. Not the least of which is a tendency to become "bogged" down with the burdens life places on us every single day.

This Country is and remains the Great Experiment. Arguably the greatest and most powerful nation that has ever existed. However, so was Rome, Egypt and England.
To imagine there will be no end to our experiment in Democracy, is to deny history. We all know the old saying, that those who refuse to learn from history, are doomed to repeat it.

I love this country. There is no one on here that would argue that point. Yet there is a cancer eating away at the very heart and soul of all this country was founded on.

Though perhaps well meaning, the Liberals represent everything that those that founded this country would hate. Weakness was not a luxury that could be afforded in those times. men and women were expected to support themselves, work for and with the community. Justice was swift and certain. Communities helped those that fell on hard times, not the government. Young men were expected to serve their country and not whine about it or run from it. Children were spanked when they did something wrong and everyone worked for a living.

Now?

Well, it is welfare, taxation and excuses for everything that we do wrong. No one ever takes any responsibility for their actions. Why should they? The government will be there, and if not, well there is always the Liberal Lawyers to bail them out.

Yes, we are a great country. At least for now anyway.

I miss men wearing hats...

Semper

Originally posted by semperfortis
The one factor that you have not entertained is that with the exception of a few, very few, individual thinkers and independent intellects, humanity desires, no, needs/wants to be led.

While I wish it weren't so, I'm going to have to agree.

However, the 'followers' have the choice in who leads them, no? Each individual follower makes their own choices...

So what do they base their choices on? and why?

Humanity also has many failings. Not the least of which is a tendency to become "bogged" down with the burdens life places on us every single day.

I can't remember the exact words, but Voltaire said something along the lines of Philosophy is a luxury. I'm not entirely sure that I agree, but I happen to be a person who never really stops thinking....

No doubt that people get bogged down in their daily lives, in going to work, in managing a household, et cetera. I guess that it would also come down to a matter of priorities... I have the luxury of being in skool right now, but I know that once I get a job, I'm not going to lay down my pen, nor my ponderings on ethics and morality, my studies in philosophy... They have priority, and as such, they will always have time in my day. (This is why the laundry hasn't gotten done yet! )

So, what are people's priorities?

Likewise, if another activity were deemed to have more priority by the general masses, then it would follow that life's demands would have to shift, no?




Also, I think there's been a serious change in the way that people think of themselves... specifically, that they think more about themselves than others, than the idea of a community.

I don't know how old you are, but I'm 25. Society raised me to be an individual. The only sense of community that I have is my family -- which even that I ran from (and will be returning to shortly). My neighbors have their lives, and _very rarely_ do they ever intersect. I have my personal bubble (aka 'home'), and you have yours, and everyone has their own little island. (This is why I hate cities... stacked bubbles! *shudders*) ((This is also why moral relativism has such a strong foothold in society -- everyone to their own, and to pursue some universal code of ethics is tantamount to imperialism.))

I had a conversation with my grandmother about this, and she was raised that you worked like hell to fit in -- to rock the boat was completely unthinkable -- you just DID NOT do it.

And here's me, raised to rock the boat... because that's what you do!


While I appreciate 'yester years', so to speak, I cannot say that I hold them in great fondness. There were many faults that, back then, were not considered to be faults. With every strength there is an inherent weakness -- the nation had a very strong sense of community, and a moral weakness with regards to sexism and racism. Now, we've a strong sense of individualism, and a weakness as a community...

Now? Well, it is welfare, taxation and excuses for everything that we do wrong. No one ever takes any responsibility for their actions. Why should they? The government will be there, and if not, well there is always the Liberal Lawyers to bail them out.

I had one (one!) history teacher in all my years of skooling that told me that with every right came responsibility. Beyond that, I, and my classmates, were taught about rights. You have the right to this, this, this and that. Responsibility was never part of the lesson plans...

I agree that excuses run rampant, from our 'leaders' to the homeless. It's easier to make an excuse than to admit responsibility. It's easier to blame someone else than deal with the consequences yourself.

It's the easy road. It's the 'me first' road. It's the selfish road.

Born with no sense of community, how can we expect people to _not_ be entirely selfish? There's no push to consider other people in the equation... because other people are the competition. You don't help your co-worker with a problem because then that might reward them with a promotion.

It's a rough catch-22. I don't help out my neighbor, even though ethics tells me that I should. I know enough about the people here to realize that they'd take advantage of my niceness, of my willingness to go out of my way for them. They probably wouldn't pay me back, and if they did it'd be so far after the fact as to render the gesture useless.

I know this. Thus, I choose not to help. Thus I am part of the problem just the same as they are, as everyone is.

So, if I extend my hand, knowing full well that I'll be taken advantage of... is that a step towards change? or is it better to let them work out their own problems, in an effort to help create some sense of responsibility?

I don't know... I really don't know.

[edit on 26-1-2007 by Diseria]

We are far more alike than you know my friend... Though I will be 48 this Month...

You possess a rare ability to view and understand an issue to a depth not common. Your points are valid and I agree with most.

However... (There is always a however isn't there?)

The average citizen does not see that far into society. They possibly could, but most would ask what is the purpose. (ie. will it put money in my pocket)

I agree with your concept that the world has moved on, and that in the moving, there has been some positive change as well as the negative..

"The philosophy of one century is the common sense of the next."
Author: Henry Ward Beecher

I will read and ponder your post more thoroughly... It is very thought provoking..

Semper

Originally posted by semperfortis
We are far more alike than you know my friend... Though I will be 48 this Month...

You possess a rare ability to view and understand an issue to a depth not common. Your points are valid and I agree with most.

Admittedly, this is caused by what I call 'living in a bubble' -- I am an observer. The distance that this accords me gives me insight. Of course, the inherent problem then is that I'm outside of everything... it becomes very difficult to affect change when you lack the relations to be able to sit down and talk with people.

This is another reason why I like ats -- I'm never preaching to the choir, so to speak, but discussing with people completely outside of my element. While face-to-face conversation is always more preferable, there's automatic character judgements made based on appearance -- which, unfortunately, the first 'strike' against me, along with my age. That's not an option here... we all have equal floor space.

(Nevermind that I write better than I speak! )

However... (There is always a however isn't there?)

They always seem to pop up, yes. But I have to admit that I've grown to like them, along with 'But' and 'Yet'... They keep the conversation going, and let me know that I haven't thought of everything... The problem has not been solved!

The average citizen does not see that far into society. They possibly could, but most would ask what is the purpose. (ie. will it put money in my pocket)

This is the ponderance of my life: How to get people to realize what it is that they're doing/not doing? How to get random person x to stop and _think_? ...specifically about something that's not involving a paycheck...

I can philosophize until my face turns blue, but that doesn't mean that the average joe schmoe on the street will even stop to listen. So how to get people to listen?

If I was a millionaire, I'd probably offer people money for their time -- their job pays them this much, so I'll 'buy' an hour to talk with them. Not the most correct way of going about it, but at least that way I've a chance to get a dialogue started.

But, I'm broke, so that's not an option. I thought that maybe stories might spark interest... (nevermind that pop. lit. is going down the drain as far as craft ). Besides that, I have an avid hatred of the idea of 'a paycheck' because, as I keep seeing in college, people sacrifice their passions for paychecks. I watch my parents whittle away their lives trying to feel 'secure'. I watch people undermine each other in an effort to get some material item that's 'better' than someone else's...

You look back on 'America: The Yester Years' and wish it were so.
I look back on 'America: Before the Colonists Arrived' and wish it were so.
No time period was ever perfect in reality... only in our minds.

The one thing that we can be guarenteed is that society will change... both for the better and the worse. Is there some way to direct the change? *shrug* I don't know. In theory there is, but that doesn't necessarily mean that this or that theory can be applied.

My latest study is the idea of Praxis: to think and act at the same time. Seeing that I've mastered chewing gum and walking (for the most part), I don't think this will difficult.

However, making that idea readily available and understandable is not so easy. A million examples of what it is does not mean that people will embrace the idea, nor put it into practice.

Which brings us full circle to our discussion of a leader: someone who exhibits the qualities that we think are 'virtuous', and thus we provide ourselves with a model, something to aspire to. That's all fine and good, in theory.

And looking at current society, I can understand why this or that person was chosen as a leader of the masses -- they exhibit, what I call, 'business ethics' (as opposed to 'moral ethics'). They _are_ the epitome of the values that current society holds as valueable... whether or not we agree with it.

At it's simplist form: Business ethics strive to create 'good business' people, their 'goodness' measured by their assets. Moral ethics strives to create 'good people', their 'goodness' measured by their character.

So how to reconcile the differences between 'business ethics' and 'moral ethics'? I'm not sure that it can be done...

Thus, people have to choose one or the other. They have to choose all on their own...


P.S. This post has inspired me to post on my blog, so feel free to comment there, as well as here.

Edited to add: The one and only solution that I can think of is Gandhi's Seven Deadly (social) Sins...

[edit on 27-1-2007 by Diseria]

[edit on 27-1-2007 by Diseria]

Originally posted by silencer

When asked to pick one "main reason why those who attacked us and their supporters hate the United States," the reasons given most often were..

1. "our democracy and freedom" (26%) and

And I just do not believe for one single moment the 26% of Americans who answered this poll in the top category have a grip on reality!


TOXIC POPULAR CULTURE ---

Made-in-America movies, TV shows, popular music, fast food and fashion trends remain this nation’s most successful exports to the rest of humanity. Instead of inspiring affection for the USA (as did the Hollywood products of the 1930’s and ‘40’s, for instance), the current entertainment offerings deliver a dark, dysfunctional view of life in North America.

How do you propose to change that? Have a government agency only approve certain movies or TV shows? A government agency to approve of only certain fashion trends or certain types of foods?

Sounds to me like you do have a problem with freedom and those Americans which you speak of really do have a grip on reality afterall.

I'm glad you said some americans, not all.

and

let those without sin cast the first stone

Hi Silencer, Actually your wrong, Many Americans dont have an opinion simply because their media dont tell them whats going on so you cannot blame them.

Couple that with the fact that most of the population have never travelled outside of the US their view of the world is a very insular one, in their own words they live in a bubble.

Also their educational standards for a western country are below most Western European countries.

Couple all this to the fact they they are being lied to on a daily basis one can hardly expect the average American to be well informed on world affairs.

Before Iraq1 most 20 year old Americans would not of been able to point out the country on a map of the world and many still cannot.

As an example many Americans believe they invented everything but when you look in detail most of it is European, from the atom bomb to rockets to computers the very people that some ATS members call and despise

And for those who will be spitting feathers at these true statements I am a member of the greatest Empire the world has ever known, there is nothing America can do that we have not already done, one can only feel superior to those in second place.