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The Holocaust...did it happen? What's the evidence either way?

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posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 02:18 AM
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Iran's president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, has opened a conference on the Jewish Holocaust. The conference, held in Tehran, is meant to discuss, debate and to present "evidence" that the Holocaust never occurred. The Iranian Holocaust Conference has drawn some of the most noted "Holocaust skeptics and deniers from around the world.

In my own opinion, judging from Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's numerous anti-Israeli / anti - Jew statements, I can only guess as to the conclusion of the "conference". I could hardly believe that the, so called, conference will conclude that there was never a Holocaust at all!

Incidentally, I firmly believe that there was indeed an active program to collect, enslave and, ultimately, eradicate the Jewish people by the Nazis. I could hardly believe anything else from what I "know" and from the Holocaust survivors that I have personally known.

I find it curious however, that there have been Holocaust deniers. How could they possibly ignore the evidence? At the same time, governments such as Germany's have actually made discussing the "Holocaust Myth" illegal. Why?

Can the "truth" stand up to scrutiny? Can the Holocaust Conference present "evidence" that the Holocaust never existed?

What do you believe? Did the Holocaust actually occur as we have all been taught to believe? Or do the Holocaust deniers actually have proof that the Holocaust never took place? If so what 'proof' could they possibly present?

Did the Holocaust occur? Or Is the Holocaust a myth perpetrated by Israel and some sort of "Zionist" conspiracy? Which is it? What's the evidence?

Note; Please do not allow this thread to deteriorate into a platform in which to hurl racial slurs or to express bigotry. Please maintain a sense of decency and present your arguments and evidence in a decent and dignified manner. A topic of this importance and sensitivity certainly demand as much.




posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 04:09 AM
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To start with, the term "Holocaust Denier" is hurled about far too much in much the same way as "anti semite" has been over the years, as a means of silencing debate and opposition.
Yes, there are people out there - mainly white supremecist nutjobs - who do deny it ever happened, but there are also serious people who don't deny it happened but question the accepted stories from the era. Those are two completely different things.

How many times have the "facts" from historical events been skewed, and have been shown to be have been skewed, in a particular way to support an official line? It happens all the time.
By branding anyone who questions the official line as a holocaust denier and some sort of evil threat to, in particular, Jews, the whole subject becomes taboo and no serious questioning of events can proceed.
The truth does not need to be hidden, unless of course it disproves long accepted and promoted viewpoints and agendas. Imprisoning people who question aspects of an event such as this does little to promote truth and, in fact, gives the impression that there are things being hidden from us that could cause the promoters of the event a whole lot of trouble.

For many events talked about on these boards there are people who demand the evidence and scientific proof to support an argument. That's fine, but the same should also apply to this topic. I'm sure, having seen the amount of skewed reporting and downright lies in recent events, that the same holds true of events more than half a century ago.



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 04:54 AM
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This is a touchy subject at the best of times so I will try and keep it as "clean" as I can and deal with details. If you know what I mean?

Many people claim that it didnt happen, many claim it did but not in the way or to the extent that is publicly written. We all have heard the words "He who wins the wars writes the history". Haven't we?

This is not to say that things didnt occur in the way that is documented, but it would benefit the winning power to have things written in a way that supports their aims and/or past actions.

anyway...

I have heard many say that if you refer to the Encyclopaedia Britannicca World Books and refer to the years throughout the war, that the Jewish population in Germany does not diminish at all. You can conclude the meaning of that yourself but I do not have the books to refer to to back this up.

In "The Guardian Weekly" Newspaper 20th January 2000, at the trial of David Irving, a well known Holocaust denier, he was quoted as saying -

"Mr Irving said it was logistically impossible for millions of people to have been gassed to death. He said he believed that the Nazis had killed between 1m and 4m Jews during the second world war, but denied that the Holocaust had been "systematic" or ordered by the Third Reich's leadership. "The defendants will find it very hard to prove it was a Third Reich decision and an Adolf Hitler decision. There were multiple shootings, but it was not pursuant to any programme," he added."

"Asked by Mr Rampton: "Do you deny that the Nazis killed millions of Jews in gas chambers in purpose-built establishments?", he replied: "Yes. I deny that millions died in the gas chambers because of the logistical problems for a start."

Mr Irving said that 1m people would weigh 100,000 tonnes, and the "logistical and architectural impossibilities" in constructing extermination camps could not be overlooked. "

It does make you think about the logistical side of things doesn't it?

There is one school of thought that I have read on the internet but dont remember wher and will try to tell you to the best of my ability that goes along the lines as follows -

The USA was not interested in entering World War 2 and upto the start of the war had actually been financing Germanys military buildup, especially George W.Bush's grandfather who many already know supplied machinery and equipment to the German war effort, and help to prop up their economy.

Anyway, The Jewish population within Germany wanted to have their own piece of land in the Holy Lands and approached the Brit's who up to that point were not in a very good way in the war and told them, that they will approach the jewish lobby in the US and get them to lobby the US Government to enter the war on the side of the british, in return the jews want their own state of Israel.

And so, the US entered the war on the side of the Brits, helped with Russia to defeat the Germans and after the war, the US and Britain helped found the state of Israel.

Now what Revisionist claim is that yes, there were concentration camps, yes many jews, slavs, homosexuals etc died there, but not to the extent of 6 million people. That this was jazzed up and evidence fabricated to present to the UN to justify the creation of a state for the Jewish peoples.

From then on, a Holocaust "Industry" has been created that seeks to uphold these claims because they are the foundation for the creation of Israel, and "IF" it were ever proven that the holocaust didnt happen or didnt happen to the extent Israel talks about, then Israel's opponents would somewhat have a leg to stand ion in saying that the state of Israel was created on falsified evidence and therefore should not exist, and in a way claim for it status as a nation to be relinquished.

Yes, I know many will disagree, but I am just stating what I have read/heard of/ and seen.

Anyway, like the original author said, lets keep this clean and not get into racial slander and abuse for I beleive the ATS moderators would have non of it!



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 05:10 AM
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Yeah, not just illegal in Germany, but Austria, and other E.U. countries...(to deny the holocaust.) Freedom of speech people...either way, you should be able to deny, accept, expand upon, etc. Who has the right to enforce and imprison people for thinking different?
That sounds like a new breed of holocaust starting doesnt it?

Anyway, Jews also attended this meeting and though they dont deny the holocaust, it would be of great benefit for everyone into this topic to listen to what they say. They have quite an interesting slant...seems zionism is responsible for killing "their own kind".
Sound rough, well heres the link...very good read...

www.jewsagainstzionism.com...

and for general info,
www.nkusa.org...

first link has the questions posed to the zionist leaders.

The poster above mine had a point...history is twisted and hyped up to suit causes.

Peace my friends...dont be polarized.


dAlen

[edit on 14-12-2006 by dAlen]



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 05:14 AM
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meh...

6 million jews?
29 million germs?
29 million russians?


reminds me of family guy where he takes that tour and says I cant seem to find any info from 1940-1945



VAT?
NOTHING HAPPENED!!!!!
HEIL HITLAH!


i guess all those pictures were faked, and the concentration camps are hoaxes? one of which a great uncle of mine was put into eh?

I might not agree with the things israel does, but hitler was intent on exterminating them. and the gypsies.



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 05:24 AM
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My Great-Grandfather was among the first British troops to enter Belsen camp. He told me you could smell it from miles away yet the people in the local town denied knowing anything about it.

I've heard what he saw there, so don't tell me the Holocaust never happened.

There's also a lot of documented evidence.

history1900s.about.com...

Is a start.

BTW, The US only entered the war when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbour. Mind you, the US knew about that before hand although they didn't START it. If the Japs had left Hawai alone maybe the US wouldn't have come in.

[edit on 14/12/06 by jimboman]



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 05:56 AM
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Originally posted by LysergicI might not agree with the things israel does, but hitler was intent on exterminating them. and the gypsies.


please read the link I provided above with questions put to zionist from a Jewish rabbi...
sounding polarized there
...things arent black and white...theres a lot of grey inbetween.

Peace

Dalen

heres the link again: enjoy...

www.jewsagainstzionism.com...

[edit on 14-12-2006 by dAlen]



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 06:01 AM
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Originally posted by jimboman
I've heard what he saw there, so don't tell me the Holocaust never happened.


You may be interested in more than what history has told you...

doesnt seem anyone is reading my link above....
Wonder how people would feel once they read this...look at where the blame is squarley laid.

Peace

Dalen



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 06:03 AM
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Originally posted by jimbomanIf the Japs had left Hawai alone maybe the US wouldn't have come in.

[edit on 14/12/06 by jimboman]


Or perhaps Hawaiii was an inside job? All this talk of 911 conspiracies, lets look at Pearl Harbor. If I were the leader of Japan I would make certain people werent out at sea when I attacked. Could it be an excuse to get the people ready to accept a war? Could be.

Peace

dAlen

what about what Dresden...and what about the Japanese trying to surrender but being Nuked anyway killing innocent civilans? Interesting, again the victor publishes his-story the way they want.

Peace again


[edit on 14-12-2006 by dAlen]



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 12:18 PM
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I will remember to tell my Great-Grandfather he did not really die during a an extermination at Auschwitz.

Further, if you plan to provide a long, comprehensive, or at least debate-able reply, I'd ask that you provide sources.



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 12:52 PM
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I've talked with a survivor of one of the concentration camps. She still had her tatoo.
I don't question that it happened.

You can also look at the photographs taken by the allied armies when they liberated the concentration camps.

The photos are gruesom.



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 01:06 PM
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I have known many people who either survived the camps, or had friends/relatives who did. I've also seen a survivor with the number tattooed on his arm. I've heard too many survivor stories to think it didn't happen. It DID happen and there were 6 million Jews killed. The ovens were going 24/7 and held lots of people at one time. IBM supplied the gas for the ovens.

Why is it so difficult to believe it happened? Humans are capable of absolute cruelty, why wouldn't this have happened?



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 01:08 PM
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Originally posted by Iblis
I will remember to tell my Great-Grandfather he did not really die during a an extermination at Auschwitz.

Further, if you plan to provide a long, comprehensive, or at least debate-able reply, I'd ask that you provide sources.


Before you tell your great grandfather, please read this link...

www.jewsagainstzionism.com...

who said no one died...? question is who was responsible...
Guess people arent really interested in the subject at hand, no one has bothered to read more into it.

Peace

dalen

[edit on 14-12-2006 by dAlen]



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 01:10 PM
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Here is the truth on this topic-

Hitler was an evil man, who had numerous other evil men working with him. They believed the Aryan race to be superior, and that so called sub humans needed to be wiped out. As a result 6 million Jews, Gypsies, Catholics, Gays, etc... were murdered.

Evidence of this is the GIs finding bodies, witnesses/survivors, ovens, gas chambers, etc.. after Germany fell.



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 01:10 PM
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Originally posted by forestlady
Why is it so difficult to believe it happened? Humans are capable of absolute cruelty, why wouldn't this have happened?


And people are good at lieing and manipulation...
please read more into the subject...


www.jewsagainstzionism.com...

Peace

dalen



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 01:14 PM
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I definitely believe it happened. I've also seen real footage, but I've never personally known a survivor. I was fascinated with the subject for a long time and read many books on it.

Are the numbers we hear today accurate? I don't know, but to me it doesn't matter. Once you get past the thought of, say, 1 million people incarcerated and killed or left to starve or die of horrible diseases in death camps, does it really matter?

I also support the right of people to question and even deny the Holocaust. I'm not convinced that that's anti-Semitic. It depends on the intent of the denier.

Funny... I don't remember starting this thread...




[edit on 14-12-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 01:22 PM
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OK you've posted the same link 3 times. I read it the first time. What is your point?

As I've said I've head too many survivor stories (directly from them) not to believe that it happened and that 6 million Jews were killed. And, hey, yeah, the Nazi's did it through lying and manipulation. And the lies and manipulation continue with the people who want to deny the holocaust happened the way history recorded it. It's called Revisionist History.

This is so much like the Armenian holocaust of early 1900's. I know someone who's grandmother died in that holocaust. Yet many people today will say it never happened.

I have a theory I call the Poland Theory. It goes like this:

I have never been to Poland, yet I believe there is a Poland. I've met alot of people who say they have been there and I've met people who were from Poland. Therefore, I believe there is a Poland.

Same thing with the Holocaust. Besides that, Germany has just opened its archives on the Holocaust, all of it. Why would they do that if their records are so different from the way we're taught it happened? And why would it be illegal in so many European countries to deny the Holocaust happened, if it didnt??


SR

posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 01:55 PM
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Are they're any documented written orders for
extermination. Are there Aerial reconnaissance photographs of the concentration camps show no smoke and flames belching from the crematoria and pyres as alleged.

I believe it happened but not to the extent claimed i will of course explain:


I would like to make my first stab at this subject with this link. I will post more information later.

www.zundelsite.org...

The First Forensic
Examination of Auschwitz (June 1989), wrote, "While significant quantities of cyanide compounds were found in the small
de-lousing facilities at Auschwitz . . . no significant trace whatsoever was found in the buildings labeled as the camp's
infamous gas chambers . . . moreover, the design and construction of those buildings are unfeasible for mass gassings.



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 02:06 PM
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Yep, it's all a giant conspiracy. A fabricated conspiracy to concoct a fantastic story.

The tens of thousands of U.S, Russian, British, and other allied soldiers who saw the camps first hand were all part of the conspiracy -- all collaborating in the lie. All the thousands of films and photographs -- faked. The first hand testimony of German soldiers and camp workers after the war -- fabrications. All the official documents detailing and recording the everyday operations at the camps -- all forgeries. The millions of graves never existed. And of course the giant international Zionist conspiracy planted thousands of false memories into the minds of the survivors.

The real tragedy is there are still people in power -- at least one head of state -- who deny the truth. And this head of state is a burgeoning nuclear power. That is the scariest of all.



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 02:07 PM
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Originally posted by forestlady
OK you've posted the same link 3 times. I read it the first time. What is your point?

As I've said I've head too many survivor stories (directly from them) not to believe that it happened and that 6 million Jews were killed. And, hey, yeah, the Nazi's did it through lying and manipulation. And the lies and manipulation continue with the people who want to deny the holocaust happened the way history recorded it. It's called Revisionist History.



Posted 3 times as your post doesnt appear to show you read it.

Everyone keeps saying nazis...the link is about the zionist who killed the Jews of europe.
Pretty straight forward, cant really miss the point as the page really hits the zionist hard.


Peace

dAlen



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