The Holocaust...did it happen? What's the evidence either way?

Originally posted by Korsyn01

Originally posted by SR
Are they're any documented written orders for
extermination. Are there Aerial reconnaissance photographs of the concentration camps show no smoke and flames belching from the crematoria and pyres as alleged.

I believe it happened but not to the extent claimed i will of course explain:


I would like to make my first stab at this subject with this link. I will post more information later.

www.zundelsite.org...

The First Forensic
Examination of Auschwitz (June 1989), wrote, "While significant quantities of cyanide compounds were found in the small
de-lousing facilities at Auschwitz . . . no significant trace whatsoever was found in the buildings labeled as the camp's
infamous gas chambers . . . moreover, the design and construction of those buildings are unfeasible for mass gassings.

there actaully are some aerial photographs that are on the web, a good one is in this wikipedia article (about halfway down the page):

Wikipedia article

and heres the picture:

Auschwitz Aerial photo

I believe it happened, no doubt about that but now that i have seen the evidence against it, I'm questioning whodunnit now.

note: im sorry if you were being sarcastic about asking for those photos, hard to tell on forums

[edit on 14/12/0606 by Korsyn01]

Hey thanks for the links! Me too i'm geniuely interested in it now too because alot of peices don't seem to make sense so i think in a way it's a good thing that Iran is hosting this event so maybe all loose ends can be cleared up at least.

A few of the things that don't make sense to me are:

The Red Cross interviewed thousands of freed camp inmates at the end of the war. When asked if they witnessed any alleged �gassings,� the response was negative. From Red Cross document #9925, June, 1946, the entry states: �The detainees themselves have not spoken of them.� How can you gas six million Jews and nobody notices?

Germans could hardly afford to waste fuel for such a purpose. Everyone agrees that the Germans kept tremendous records for efficiency and documentation purposes. Where are the records of these fuel shipments to the camps. The Germans were fighting a war, and they needed the productive capacity of the inmates of the camps to produce war material. An extermination policy would have shifted vital resources away from production to waste.

Auschwitz, one of the largest concentration camps, had only about twenty ovens in its crematory. The crematoria at the various concentration camps were very crude and required lots of fuel and many hours to consume one body.

In 1943, the SS arrested Buchenwald Commandant Karl Koch for mistreating and executing prisoners. He was found guilty by SS Judge Konrad Morgan and was executed for his crimes. If there were an extermination policy in force, would they bother trying and executing Commandant Koch?

According to the New York Times of Sunday, January 4, 1987, Elie Wiesel recalled �the day the Soviets arrived at Auschwitz.� Previously, in a speech to the National Press Club in Washington D.C., in April, 1983, Wiesel �noted that on April 15, 1945, he was one of the survivors liberated at Dachau by the U.S. Army.� - Jewish Telegraph Agency, April 11, 1983.

As i have said i believed it happened but there are holes that i can't deny are hard to overlook and puzzle me.

[edit on 15-12-2006 by SR]

[edit on 15-12-2006 by SR]

Originally posted by Nemithesis
Holocaust denial is not about questioning whether or not the holocaust happened. It's about questioning whether or not what happened can be called a holocaust.

One of the most surprising things I found during my research on this subject was the original definition of Holo-caust --A burnt offering.
To me that speaks volumes, just like war is held in a 'theater', and we live in a 'universe' (uni-one, verse-sentence... And God said...)


Indeed the holocaust happened. No doubt about it.
Im unsure of the actual numbers though, but that is really irrelivent IMO
one million or six, its still a black-mark for all of humanity.

I also believe it has been used to manipulate the hearts and minds of America.

Originally posted by Nemithesis
Holocaust denial is not about questioning whether or not the holocaust happened. It's about questioning whether or not what happened can be called a holocaust.

@Nemithesis--with reference to the post above:

Are you saying that this whole thing is about Semantics?--that the problem with the death/disappearance of 6 million people matters only in the word used to describe it?

I see a discussion here of the relative merits of the efficiency of the use of gas in the slaughter of masses of Human Beings, and I wonder if you really know what you are saying with all of this? CO and Phosgene were used in the death camps--along with machine guns, starvation, disease, and medical experiment, for a few. Does anyone here actually believe that the SS gave a crap if their victims suffered? I think maybe you don't realize just how fanatically sadistic and mentally warped the SS who ran the camps were.

As I said before, this is about Racism---all of it is about Racism--and nothing more than that. That's one "label" --one "descriptive word" that covers ALL of the bases in any discussion of Holocaust Denial.

[edit on 15-12-2006 by Ed Littlefox]

I would like to add to my earlier post with this information from wikipedia that i'm currently researching the sources to see if it is valid or not:


Modern Holocaust deniers assert that Zyklon B gas was not used in the gas chambers, relying as evidence on the low levels of Prussian blue residue in samples of the purported gas chambers found by Fred A. Leuchter, which Leuchter dismissed as the results of general delousing of buildings. However, Leuchter's negative control, a sample of gasket material taken from a different building in the camp, registered as having no such cyanide residue. The manager of the analytical laboratory hired by Leuchter states in an interview in Errol Morris' film Mr. Death: the Rise and Fall of Fred A. Leuchter, Jr., that Leuchter's thick samples of brick would have greatly diluted the cyanide residue, which forms only an extremely fine layer on the walls and cannot penetrate.

In 1994, the Institute for Forensic Research in Krak�w reexamined this claim on the grounds that formation of Prussian blue by exposure of bricks to cyanide is not a highly probable reaction (Amoklauf gegen die Wirklichkeit. Praca zbiorowa; B. Gallanda, J. Bailer, F. Freund, T. Geisler, W. Lasek, N. Neugebauer, G. Spenn, W. Wegner; Bundesministerium fuer Unterricht und Kultur Wien, 1991). Using more sophisticated microdiffusion techniques, they tested 22 samples from the alleged gas chambers, delousing chambers (as positive controls), and living quarters (as negative controls), finding cyanide residue in both the delousing chambers and the ruins of the suggested gas chambers but none in the ruins of the living quarters, thus supporting the identification of the gas chambers as correct..

Just to contribute a little further to this debate, I have just come across a good article on rense.com which you may find interesting -

www.rense.com...

Titled "The Holocaust in Historical Context"

Heres a quote -

"Nazi persecution was held in check as long as Hitler desired peace with England, or good relations with Russia."

Does this mean that as long as Hitler didn't bother the major powers in the area, he was free to do what he liked to the jewish people and others? Why did England, the moral crusader, sit back and watch this going on for a couple years before deciding to join the war? Smells of complacency and double standards if you ask me.

Yeah, kill the blokes down the street see if I care, aslong as you dont come and knock on my door, right?

"The Nazis killed 6 million Poles and 20 million Russians including 7 million civilians by a variety of means. Three million Russian POW died from bullets, deliberate typhus infection and starvation."

"Why would the Nazis exempt the 5-6 million Jews in this region? The Jews were even lower than Slavs on the "untermensch," (subhuman) scale."

When more people were dying than the amount now readily accepted as being the jewish total, why didnt other nationalities get preferences and special deals, and some more land for their loss?

Was the creation of Israel a "legal-form" of purging Europe of the jewish population?

another quote from the above article to make you think abit -

"World War Two was a time of unparalleled savagery and ethnic cleansing. I will not attempt a complete inventory here. The Romanians used the cover of war to kill 250,000 Jews at their own initiative. The Croats murdered 350,000 Serbs. The German army lost 4 million men killed and 4 million wounded. The Soviet army lost over 9 million dead and 18 million wounded. Civilian losses were 1.8 million in Germany and 11.5 million in Russia. China lost 20 million civilians.

My point is that the real Holocaust was the war itself. The Jewish Holocaust was a part of it. The injustice is focusing on the Jewish experience, which is racism in the name of anti-racism. It implies that only Jewish lives matter. The challenge is to mourn the world war as a collective tragedy for humanity and to understand why it took place, before we have another. "

6 million jews amongst the tens and tens of millions is but a small fraction of the total losses, yet publibly represents, somehow, the most important loss of all.....why the hell is that?

Why when we mention the word Holocaust do we think of only jews?

Because we as a society have all been conditioned to associate holocaust with jew because it forms the backbone of the state of Isrtael and without it there would not have been a justification for the creation of it in the first place.

And in summary, let me leave you with the ending quote of the aformentioned link -

"Apparently World War Three will begin as a confrontation between Israel and Iran. It may spread to a nuclear trade-off between the US, Russia and China. Obviously we need to stop arguing about how many Jews died 60 years ago and focus on preventing World War Three ..."

Peace to all.....if you can find it.

Personally, I don't doubt that the holocaust occured. But whether or not it happend to the extent it is portrayed is another question. If it did, then why does it seem as though something is being hidden? For example, as other people have mentioned it is illegal in certain countries (Germany and Austria I think) to question the Holocaust. Even talking about the subject openly is not acceptable.

In usual circumstances, when murder is committed there is a formal investigation into the case. People don't just forget the details and go straight to the funeral and start giving out inheritances. And for that matter, I don't think the Iranian president denies the holocaust either.. I think he just wants there to be solid evidence proving it and justifying the existence of Israel and the only way that can happen is by looking into the past regardless of how painful it is. But of course the media blows anything he says out of proportion to make him look like some psychotic monster.

Which brings me to another point.. If the Nazi's are to blame (with a large role played by the zionists imo) why should the Palestinian people give up their land and suffer because of something the Nazi's and Zionists did? Why not give them land in Germany or Europe somewhere or even in America? Don't get me wrong, the atrocities that occured in that time period to the Jews were horrible and I'm totally against that. But like others have said in this post why is it that there loss is considered to be greater then the Russians, Slavs, Serbs, Chinese and any other lives lost in WWII?

to clear some confusion, here is some basic info as accepted by most historians :

3 types of camps:

extermination camps (for killing) - 3.6 to 4.6 million died from gas, starvation, disease, exhaustion, mass shootings, etc. - 80% or so were Jews

concentration camps (mainly for prisoners & forced labor)

slave labor camps (forced labor)

Deaths occurred in all the camps for obvious reasons. The term Holocaust refers to all genocide related deaths (being shot in the streets, starving to death in their homes or whatever), not just those in camps.

9 to 11 million total deaths. 6 million Jewish deaths.

In two days I will have had "holocaust" as a daily Google alert for one whole year.
I don't think one day has gone by over the last year that Google Alerts hasn't sent me at least 5 - 8 (usually 10, which is the maximum) new results containing the word "holocaust".

A very large portion of the results is what I call 'holocaust training' where there are people everywhere conducting classes and having holocaust survivors speak to groups of people. All of the people who publicly teach about the holocaust teach it exactly the same way, almost as if the Simon Wiesenthal Centre set the standard teaching protocol and is the governing watchdog over any holocaust teachings.

Several of the results I have gotten have just pissed me off. Like one about some group who recently put a $10,000 reward out for anyone who can turn in a former Nazi or SS agent. Their idea was "we are running out of time to find and prosecute these Nazi's, they are dying off". I'm sorry but hunting down guys who are at a minimum 83 years old is just rotten. Do you see any Hiroshima survivors trying to hunt down the pilots, airmen or ground crew of the plane that dropped the bomb on them? No.

There were many other results that were obviously just people and groups trying to capitalize on the holocaust. I don't feel like going through them right now because it will just make me mad.

Why is doubting the holocaust a crime punishable by prison time in Europe?
Is there another example of a law that states one cannot say something did not happen the way it is written in the history books?

It's kind of hard to ignore the huge infrastructure for the transportation, housing and eradiction of humans in Germany.

That Jews were targeted for for extermination is pretty hard to dismiss given Nazi policy of racial superiority and the blaming of Jews for Germany's social ills following WWI.

One might quibble over numbers and interject the numbers of non-jews who were victims of the Nazi regime, but call it what you will, Jews were slain in massive numbers by Nazi Germany for the mere fact of being Jews and the evidence supports that.

Vivid images:

Photo 1

Photo 2

Photo 3

www.pbs.org...


[edit on 2006/12/18 by GradyPhilpott]

Originally posted by Ed Littlefox

@ the Thread

I can see that many of you are young--very young. I am not, for what it's worth. I am having a real problem getting my head around the fact that there still are those in the World who would deny the Holocaust. There is only one reason anyone would entertain such horrible thoughts of denying the Truth of it--and that is to permit it's current and eventual continuance. Oh, and you can believe that "it" continues, even as we speak. (Darfur, Equatorial Africa, Bosnia, North Africa, Asia, the Middle East, and the United States.) Understand something; Holocaust = Genocide--and a rose by any other name--- my point being that the mentality, thought, and impetus, still exists. These days we call it, simply, Racism--and as long as that mentality exists, then the motive for a future Holocaust exists along with it.

Okay, a little off topic but what Genocide is commited in the USA?? I haven't heard of such a thing occuring

[edit on 18/12/0606 by Korsyn01]

"The Red Cross interviewed thousands of freed camp inmates at the end of the war. When asked if they witnessed any alleged gassings the response was negative "

Have you not considered that would be because they didn't witness the gassings? There wasn't a spectator balcony, and no Jew who walked into the gas chamber and came out alive. Often they were taken straight from the train into the gas chamber. If you were a prisoner and had seen anything, it would just have been a queue of people walking through a door in the distance, you couldn't honestly say you'd "seen" the gassing. You'd see people walk in a door, and not come out again.

Auschwitz was a huge complex. It was a number of camps. The gas chambers only took up a very small portion of the complex. Inmates were confined, not allowed to wander round at will, guards, dogs and barbed wire seperated compounds. The only time an inmate would get into the killing area was if it was their turn to die. Quite simply, to actually see the gassing, you'd have to be in there getting gassed.

Think of it this way. How many murders have occurred in your country in the past 10 years? And how many of those did you witness? Infact, how many did you witness in your own town, or even your own street? I'm guessing close to zero....so does that mean there have been no murders in your country in the past 10 years? If you saw just one murder, does that mean your country's murder problem is overexaggerated, because you didnt see the other 500 or 5000 or whatever?

As for no cyanide being found in the gas chambers, a couple of years ago a documentary team from UK's Channel 4 investigated just this claim. What they found was that the samples taken which are often used to disprove the gassings had merely been skimmed off the surface of paint from the the wall. I'm no scientist, so can't be more detailed, but basically they found you need to take deeper scrapings from a different area. If you take them from a wall surface that has been exposed for 60 years or so you basically get no readings because of the way the chemical breaks down when exposed to air and damp.

If I can find a link to that I'll post it later - but at the moment I can't even remember the name of the documentary, sorry!

For anyone who doubts that a Holocaust or gassings took place, I would recommend vieiwng the excellent BBC Auschwitz documentary series (now on DVD). They not only talk to former inmates, but also the guards, who give VERY frank accounts of exactly what happened there. Some of them still feel pride at killing Jews first-hand.

So when we have the ruins of the camps and the crematoria, when we have wartime photographs showing the smoking chimneys, when we have cine film of piles of bodies being bulldozed into pits...and when both the inmates and the guards claiming the gassings happened - with some of the latter admitting to pouring the Zyklon B into the chamber - then surely there's a very slight chance that it did happen?

Originally posted by Korsyn01
Okay, a little off topic but what Genocide is commited in the USA??

I haven't heard of such a thing occuring

Perhaps you might want to remember that before the Europeans arrived, Native Americans were all over the continent. The US was built on the genocide of those people and the forced transportation and enslavement of Africans.

I hope you're really young, otherwise you have no excuse for not seeing what's in front of your face.

I thought I'd post some brief extracts from the speech delivered by Rabbi Aharon Cohen at the Iranian conference on the Holocaust.

Some of you will be thinking, wtf? How come a Rabbi is at this conference which is all about denying the Holocaust?

Well, things are not as simple and cartoonish as people here would like to think. For example, Jews have lived in Iran for many hundreds of years, and are perfectly happy there. It would be a short hop for them to go and live in Israel, but they don't do it. The recent story about Iranian Jews having to wear a yellow star as in Germany is a ludicrous fabrication, as they themselves knew. However, this kind of disinformation is necessary to build Iran up as the next enemy to be dealt with after Iraq. Which, of course, is going so well Bushco will be able to turn their attention to the tricky non-existent nukes of Iran.

I have to say I found the Rabbi's words very moving and humble.

I would like firstly to recap briefly for everyone present, because of its relevance to the subject of the Holocaust, the fact that Judaism and Zionism are totally different and diametrically opposed concepts...

6. Judaism teaches that although the Jewish People were promised the Holy Land, now known as Palestine, this was only subject to certain conditions, basically that we had to maintain the highest of moral, ethical and religious standards. Our religious teachings and literature – our Torah – are replete with warnings that if these conditions were not fulfilled then the Jewish People would be dispersed in a divinely decreed exile.

7. This is what took place. The conditions were not fulfilled to the required degree and the Jewish People were dispersed to the four corners of the globe, as history confirms. Right up to the present day the Jewish People are in a divinely decreed exile... and we are prohibited under oath from trying to force our way out of the exile by the efforts of our own hands. We are also prohibited under oath from trying to form a State of our own in Palestine. To contravene these prohibitions would constitute a rebellion against the wishes of the A-lmighty and we are warned of dire consequences of making any such attempt.

The article makes fascinating reading.

can we please change the title to something like

the POLITICS of the HOLOCAUST who else may have also been responsible, and why the focus and ASSOCIATION on the jewish if the russian polish and other nations had as many and more fatalities.

by saying did it happen is misleading and ignorant and DIMINISHES CRITICAL THINKING and gets PEOPLE OUTRAGED C'MON this could be a very thought proving thread, and my eyebrows are raised

something does smell fishy when one associate the holocaust only with the horrible losses the jewish people endured. also a question to those who state 6 million jews died and 29 million russians

how many of those russians could have been jewish as well, since jewish is a relgion unless u mean israeli. excuse me if this seems silly but it appears like this is often lost in translation. were the other 29 million russians not of jewish faith, so would this mean catholics and others were singled out. OR WOULD THIS IMPLY that it was not anti-jewish and that yes 6 million jews died but also 20 million(?) catholics did as well and that this is spun to focus on jews when it was really ANTI- AYRIAN RACE PEOPLE? would this be spun like this to hide anything? LIKE ZIONIST INVOLVEMENT in the HOLOCAUST

and beleive me IF this was spun it was done so by people WHO KNEW they could MANIPUTATE the HEARTS and minds of the jewish ancestors who tragically lost loved ones by stating that anyone who questions anything about the "OFFICIAL story of the HOLOCAUST" is an anti semite or is "denying the holocaust." and that when these comments questioning the story of the holocaust were read this would rehash any old painful memories just by association of the word and naturally breed anger toward's the peple rehashing them, especially when suggesting (manipulating) that questing the holocaust = denying that something happened, which is misdirecting

MOD's I would like to copy (this post) this and start another thread where the focus is not wether something happened or not and the evidence of either (polarized is ignorant)

[edit on 22-12-2006 by cpdaman]

[edit on 22-12-2006 by cpdaman]

[edit on 22-12-2006 by cpdaman]

[edit on 22-12-2006 by cpdaman]

[edit on 22-12-2006 by cpdaman]

Speaking of "the politics of the holocaust" let me forward a link to you that shows you who the largest mass murderers of last century were -

www.ynetnews.com...

I am nnot saying that the "jewish" holocaust didn't happen, but what I want to get across here is the same principle that the Japanese currently abide by.

That is, if you enter any japanese school, none of the curriculum involves educating their students on past Japanese attrocities of Worl War 2, the same thing occurs with the Jewish peoples, refusing to admit or to account for their place in history when it comes to mass murders and other holocausts.

Read the linked article, you shall see for yourself.

Why is it then that we must all be educated and have it pumped into our heads about"6 million jews", in Germany's World War 2, when Stalins Jews, particularly Genrikh Yagoda. Heres a quote from the article -

"And us, the Jews? An Israeli student finishes high school without ever hearing the name "Genrikh Yagoda," the greatest Jewish murderer of the 20th Century, the GPU's deputy commander and the founder and commander of the NKVD. Yagoda diligently implemented Stalin's collectivization orders and is responsible for the deaths of at least 10 million people. His Jewish deputies established and managed the Gulag system. After Stalin no longer viewed him favorably, Yagoda was demoted and executed, and was replaced as chief hangman in 1936 by Yezhov, the "bloodthirsty dwarf."



Yezhov was not Jewish but was blessed with an active Jewish wife. In his Book "Stalin: Court of the Red Star", Jewish historian Sebag Montefiore writes that during the darkest period of terror, when the Communist killing machine worked in full force, Stalin was surrounded by beautiful, young Jewish women.



Stalin's close associates and loyalists included member of the Central Committee and Politburo Lazar Kaganovich. Montefiore characterizes him as the "first Stalinist" and adds that those starving to death in Ukraine, an unparalleled tragedy in the history of human kind aside from the Nazi horrors and Mao's terror in China, did not move Kaganovich. "


As the saying goes - "He who wins the wars writes the history books".

I'm not going to read the link simply because i don't care who was to blame. It happened, and it is a tragedy... but bickering over who caused it now isn't going to bring any of the people back.