ten billion to put an base on the moon? what a waste of money

Im really surprised that mineral, energy and such companies haven't started space exploration, as well as corporations. Sure its gonna cost alot but you have to spend money to make money.

So thats the pinnacle of space exploration then is it? Microwave ovens, velcro,
spandex? Jeez, i can't even remember the last time i used a microwave oven
let alone spandex.

Also you could easily do a search on microwave ovens and velcro and find they were invented in the forties by people who weren't working on or had anything to do with the space race. They were just inventors from a totaly different
field of research.

NASA has ruined the chances of us ever really seeing what is truely out there
by monopolizing the entire space program, and showing us only what they
want us to see.

I think the government should pay for it not the tax payers.

I think our tax dollars should go toward helping Earth and the people on her. It is a disgrace that there are still people on this planet that are sick, hungry and also lack in clothing and lousy housing.

I find it hard especially hard during Holidays such as these that the first family eats and celebrates with the best and there are "FAMILIES" that live in cars.

I worked helping people with Cancer and I was shocked when I found out that most of the money collected is for prevention not the cure. How many people really need/read a booklet.

I wonder where this money will go cause you are right before this is over it will be a Trillion dollars.

Besides don't you think that maybe by then they will figure out this alien technology (which they probably already have) and all this stuff would be worthless museum stock.

I was taught to take care of yourself, family, friends first when you have accomplished this then you help all others that you can.

The people who say that NASA shouldn't spend 10 billion for a Moon base are correct.


They should spend 100 billion or more.

People tend to look at money as a consumable resource. Once it is spent it is gone. A large chunk of that 10 billion will be spent to pay the people who build the hardware to go back to the Moon. These people will in turn buy things for themselves and their families, and so on. This will do more for people than any social program can.

I'm surprised a lot more just hasn't been done since we landed on the moon, period (one can't help but think that this moon project, appearing seemingly from nowhere, is a last ditch effort by G.W. Bush to leave his office, and leave a legacy that won't paint him as one of the most aggressive, reckless, incompetent, regressive, and least liked presidents the United States has ever had).

We don't have a government. What we have is a military industrial complex. And this complex, now, is the only force driving the advance of our species.

An organization based on intimidation, control, and force dictates government policy when its own interests are at stake.

To my mind, and this is speculation, NASA came into being to serve our military (the Air Force) in 1958, where it received and completed its objective 10 years later, successfully landing a party on the moon (was a moon landing the only objective? I think not. But this trip was essential to whatever it was our military was working on).

What I see as happening after that, was the military then took their programs underground. The world's population got to enjoy this moment, thanks to the United States military, but almost 50 years later, has not seen anything close (save for some neat Mars photos).

NASA, in the meantime, appears to be an organization of scientists and engineers without a follow up plan (this is just speculation). The organization was like a car, that the military filled with gas, ran hard, then left on the side of the road. The terrible, ongoing funding struggles, and back and forth with congress, are very telling with regard to this theory.

You have this organization essentially created and peopled by the military that was left to its own devices after it served its purpose. To my mind, this program, although successful in its history, only seems to be vitalized when the military industrial complex feels a need to exploit it (Star Wars program?) for some reason (i.e., fills the car up with gas again).

The point being that our race doesn't seem to progress an inch, except as a byproduct of our military advancing its own interests. This is unfortunate, but I admit, I'll take what I can get.

The point of fact here is that we are where we are now in 2006 thanks to an aggressive, "positive action", preemptive military force. This makes a statement about our race, and that statement is that we are a hostile, warring, aggressive race.

This is unfortunate, but true. As much as we have oceans of peace-loving people on this planet, our emissaries hold guns, and they will point it at another race before they extend a greeting. This is the way the military is wired - they aren't wired to be ambassadors or philosophers; they are trained to fight, control and kill.

In a larger context, whatever force or will it takes to progress a species, we have to accept that outcome as positive, and the steps to get there necessarily a means to an end.

But I sincerely regret, to my core, that this is the avenue through which we reach out to the stars; and further, the greeting we may use, encountering fellow beings as we do so...

Billions of dollars will never be enough to solve any of the world's problems. The theme of solving poverty and health will always recur whenever funding is use for other meaningful purposes. Billions, if not TRILLIONS, had been spent on poverty and health after WWII, and the result?

Yes, there are progress and will continue to make progress, but we MUST never devote our entire resources to just eradicating poverty and health. Other areas require it as well - education, defense, social justice, etc. Let's not kick up a fuss over the small change of 10 billion to aquire knowledge logically and realistically. Furthermore, think of the unemployment index being lowered, the employment opportunities it presents to millions of people/families and economies, and the spinoffs....

Moving on to the organisation in charge of space exploration of space - NASA, it would be easy to have negative perceptions on its intention, based on numerous cases of duplicity on its programmes found out by others.

However, we can accept the positve aspect of this organisation as well. Perhaps the timming of this announcement of moonbase is to secure the funding for it, to coincide with the annoucement of life/water on Mars? Havent been easy for years to obtain funds, seems like a good opportunity to do so, riding on the interest on Mars.

As for the question of moonbase being a cheaper alternative than Earth as a stepping stone, trying imagine:-

a. building a huge spacecraft (10 times as big as the current shuttle) on Earth to carry the necessary items for a sustaining Martian base.

b. the amount of chemicals it needs to lift off from Earth's gravitational pull.

c. the amount of quality control checks to ensure it would be safe to lift off, and not even 100% guarantee, the setbacks should it fail...

Then compare it with several modules shipped into space or moonbase to be assembled in zero or minimal gravity. Which would be a cheaper and better, safer alternative?

Quick questions...

What minerals are available on the moon and asteroids which could be used to produce the materials needed to build a spacecraft there?

Wouldn't it be more sensible to mine the moon, capture iron/nickel rich asteroids, smelt and manufacture all the neccesary components on a lunar base?

What companies are already looking at such opportunities?

edit to add Spacedev

[edit on 10/12/06 by masqua]

The main resource they're after is helium-3 (helium-3).

Making the moon base out of minerals on the moon is absurd. How will you smelt the minerals? Wouldn't it be easier just to send the moon base rather than the tools to build a moonbase (this is discussed here(here) kind of).

People are right that money won't solve the worlds problems. But neither will wasting the money on going to the moon. The framework the world is working on is completely skewed; thats the heart of our problems.

Also, someone said the "government shouldn't use our money for this, they should use their own"... who gives the government the money?

Anyways, I'm surprised no-one whose pro-moon base pointed this (this) out.

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth102
Yes, there are progress and will continue to make progress, but we MUST never devote our entire resources to just eradicating poverty and health. Other areas require it as well - education, defense, social justice, etc. Let's not kick up a fuss over the small change of 10 billion to aquire knowledge logically and realistically. Furthermore, think of the unemployment index being lowered, the employment opportunities it presents to millions of people/families and economies, and the spinoffs....

10 billion dollars isn't small change. What knowledge will be gained that couldn't be gained from cheaper, more pragmatic means? Millions of people - I'd guess 100,000 maximum. And how many of the currently unemployed will get jobs through the creation of a moon base... maybe 0.001%. As I've said before, if you want spin-off technologies, just start more wars and you'll have loads.

Originally posted by XphilesPhan
It's time to start thinking of ourselves as a planet of one, rather than a planet of several hundred nations.

Exactly my thoughts, and well said . I'd like to see the day when we can send people into space as 'Humans', not just 'Americans' or 'Russians', etc.

I've always thought space exploration was the way forward. If we don't spend money on that then what else are we going to do? Sit here creating more wars and cr*p reality TV shows and waiting for the end of the world?


Thoughts on colonising another planet though; I can just visualise the first loads of people flying off to the 'New World' or the 'Promised Land' lol, ring any bells?

(From the Hawking link): He added that if humans can avoid killing themselves in the next 100 years, they should have space settlements that can continue without support from Earth.

And what would happen when they became fully independent and powerful!?

Originally posted by masqua
Quick questions...

What minerals are available on the moon and asteroids which could be used to produce the materials needed to build a spacecraft there?

Wouldn't it be more sensible to mine the moon, capture iron/nickel rich asteroids, smelt and manufacture all the neccesary components on a lunar base?

Rand Simberg wrote an interesting article recently that you may enjoy about using the Earth-Moon L1 Lagrange point as a staging area between the Earth and Moon and elsewhere…

TRANSTERRESTRIAL MUSINGS: EARTH-MOON L1 CONSIDERATIONS
www.transterrestrial.com...

And Jeff Foust wrote an article recently that looks at another possibility...

The Space Review: The L2 alternative
www.thespacereview.com...

What companies are already looking at such opportunities?

Fortunately lots! Clark Lindsey’s RLV and Space Transport News is a good source for what the numerous alt.space/NewSpace companies and organizations are up to…

www.hobbyspace.com...

(shameless plug: Clark mentioned some of my work recently so I’m returning the favor)

10 billion is worth setting up a public moon base. Because many people don't follow what is going on NASA has to have a plan to educate the public on what has been going on in space. Everyone knows what NASA does, so the association that most humans have with news from NASA wouldn't surprise them, but if it came from another source, like the USAF, what would you think?

All the companies that have something to do with mining or travel in space should give you an idea of what is around the corner for mankind. They are putting the infrastructure in place to make things happen. They are also preparing the public for what will happen, just like NASA. Without taking little steps the public will think this is all lies and science fiction, but give them small spoonfulls of info here and there and they wouldn't think twice about it.

All the minerals on the moon make it a great place to setup shop. Another thing that some of you may not know is the USAF has civil engineering squadrons. In my opinion the USAF is putting together, or already have, teams to look at projects in space. Someone will have to maintain these facilities. Who would you want to do this? Contractors that will charge us an arm and a leg, or the active duty personnel that would jump at any chance to work in outer space and serve their country?

The previous 50 years were pretty exciting, but what is in store for mankind in the next 50 years should change the way this world operates and give us a brighter future to look forward to.

Originally posted by byhiniur

The government will carry on making missles with or without the $10billion from this NASA project. It would be nice if th world's defence budgets were drastically reduced but I don't see this happening anytime soon.

Yes! we need MORE missles... gotta defend Moonbase from Aliens Need space partol ships too... lots of them if we want to control and exploit space

That by having a base on the moon we'll get some new technologies otherwise not gained.

Oh yes! Most assuridly... All that Alien tech thats on the Moon and Mars...and we better hurry before the Chinese beat us to it...

As I've said before, I think we should be using space exploration money to 'terraform' currently inhospitable parts of the planet to increase the amount of living area. Surely it'd be easier to live in the desert than on the moon?

10 billion is nothing as said before not even a weeks expenditure in Iraq... IF we really wanted to do things to help the poor areas of Earth there is plenty of Money for that... Personally I am tired of spending all that money on foreign aid and redevelopment that mostly ends up in the pockets of foreign warlords and dictators and never reaches the people its intended for... Talk about wasted billions... and the wasted billions in forgive debts to foreign nations that can never pay us back...

I see nothing wrong with taking a few billion that WILL BE REPAID 100 FOLD to spend on ourselves... the same way on a small scale I spend most of my earnings for bills and daily life and taxes and save a portion for speculation and fun

10 billion is nothing a penny per gallon for a few months on gasoline

Gimme a break talk about ignorance...

Its time we became explorers and adventures again...

And think of all the new jobs created in the private sector with over 20 spaceports under construction think of the staff and support personal needed... the high tech positions available to the millions of kids graduating in the next few years... the research and development needed to create this endeavor..

Yeah sure lots of new military positions too but tell you what if I was young enough I would be at that recruiting office for the Space Command this afternoon

Everything America does goes hand in hand with the private/commercial sector and the military... let them have their new space toys... I just hope they hurry up and get something flying up there that doesn't require years of treining to get a ride just to see


[edit on 10-12-2006 by zorgon]

Originally posted by byhiniur
Making the moon base out of minerals on the moon is absurd. How will you smelt the minerals? Wouldn't it be easier just to send the moon base

Before you make a statement like that I would suggest you check out the documents posted in the meeting symposium at the Lunar and Planetary Society and the Colorado School of Mines

The term you want to get familiar with is ISRU

It means In Situ Resource Utilization... you have no idea just how many papers, projects and inventions are to be found. They have been working on this for years!!!

I am going to toss in one sample extract from one of 100's of papers available to the public...

The logic employed in our reasoning includes the fact that any In Situ Resource Utilization (ISRU) effort is going to yield copious masses of silicon oxides which can be used in bulk as conventional glass products or, after further separation, can be synthesized as Silicon and Silicon- Carbide Fullerenes for more exotic applications. Additionally, mechanical wrapping of Silicon Webbing could prove to be more practical and durable and a lot less brittle than attempting largescale hot glass molding of structural components.
Identified fuel production ISRU efforts yield partially heated masses of metal oxides as waste byproduct – rich in silicates and metal oxides useful in bulk as conventional glass products.

Fiberglass manufacturing increases effectiveness of prior ISRU fuel production by taking advantage of mineral benefaction and elevated process exit temperatures. The resulting structures
would be spheres and cylinders with various configurations that could apply to human support systems, along with structures useable as storage tanks for the very Oxygen liberated in ISRU
applications.

Yes you read right glass making on the MOON for structures that have a byproduct of metal oxides and free oxygen

So I would suggest to those who think this is all a waste of time and money to actually do some research on the state of affair before shooting from the hip

believe it or not... like it or not... the Lunar and Mars mining operations are well under way...

10 billion is buttons when you think that Americans spend 4 billion a year on leaving electrical devices on stand-by, now that's a waste of money and energy, Europe's even worse when it comes to energy waste.

It all depends on what conspiracies you give credence to. If you already believe that we have other means of getting to the moon then in that respect the 10 billion is a waste as it's just a front to keep the general public from knowing whats really going on.

Originally posted by bramski

It all depends on what conspiracies you give credence to. If you already believe that we have other means of getting to the moon then in that respect the 10 billion is a waste as it's just a front to keep the general public from knowing whats really going on.

SHHHHH don't tell em Don't do it!!!

Does the name Aluria mean anything to anyone?

Originally posted by zorgon
Yes! we need MORE missles... gotta defend Moonbase from Aliens

Need space partol ships too... lots of them if we want to control and exploit space

Control and exploit... (sigh)... we don't need missles or a manned moon base.

Originally posted by zorgon
10 billion is nothing as said before not even a weeks expenditure in Iraq... IF we really wanted to do things to help the poor areas of Earth there is plenty of Money for that... Personally I am tired of spending all that money on foreign aid and redevelopment that mostly ends up in the pockets of foreign warlords and dictators and never reaches the people its intended for... Talk about wasted billions... and the wasted billions in forgive debts to foreign nations that can never pay us back...

Grameen Bank has loaned out $5.72 billion, mostly in very small, zero- or small-interest loans, to 6.74 million borrowers, 97 percent of them women. Those borrowers repaid $5.07 billion, a nearly 89 percent loan recovery rate, according to the bank’s Web site.

Source

10 billion, used in the right way, can make a massive difference to the world, don't be ignorant saying it's peanuts. Also, there would be no NASA unless America had stolen 'foriegn nations' resources in the first place, so the least America can do is help out its victims.

Originally posted by zorgon
I see nothing wrong with taking a few billion that WILL BE REPAID 100 FOLD to spend on ourselves... the same way on a small scale I spend most of my earnings for bills and daily life and taxes and save a portion for speculation and fun.

If you were highly in debt how much would be spent on speculation and fun?

Originally posted by zorgonGimme a break talk about ignorance...
Its time we became explorers and adventures again...

I do think the two arguments I pointed out are arguments from ignorance. Please don't quote out me of context without addressing the points I raised.

Originally posted by zorgon
And think of all the new jobs created in the private sector with over 20 spaceports under construction think of the staff and support personal needed... the high tech positions available to the millions of kids graduating in the next few years... the research and development needed to create this endeavor..

Available to millions of kids... gained by a handful.

The few new jobs that are created (not millions as you suggest) will increase the rich/poor divide; it will take more money to get this massive problem solved. As has been previously stated by other people in this thread, we shouldn't look to other planets until our own planet has been fixed.

Originally posted by zorgon
Everything America does goes hand in hand with the private/commercial sector and the military... let them have their new space toys... I just hope they hurry up and get something flying up there that doesn't require years of treining to get a ride just to see.

If that is the sum of your hopes then I can see why you'd want a space station... I hope for a better world rather than more worlds and I don't see how having more worlds is going to improve our world. A child dies from poverty every 3 seconds, what grounds are there for arguing that we deserve more planets to make more people suffer on.

Originally posted by zorgon

Originally posted by byhiniur
Making the moon base out of minerals on the moon is absurd. How will you smelt the minerals? Wouldn't it be easier just to send the moon base

Before you make a statement like that I would suggest you check out the documents posted in the meeting symposium at the Lunar and Planetary Society and the Colorado School of Mines. It means In Situ Resource Utilization... you have no idea just how many papers, projects and inventions are to be found. They have been working on this for years!!!

Thanks for the heads up on this information, I'll peruse it at my leisure. I was trying to point out that if we can send the machinery to make a moonbase then why don't we send the machinery to do the work of the people being sent to the moon instead, although I accept I didn't make that clear. It seems a waste of time trying to have a manned mission to mars. We have places on earth that are currently inhospitable that could be turned into hospitable places at much less cost, available to alot more people.

Originally posted by zorgon
So I would suggest to those who think this is all a waste of time and money to actually do some research on the state of affair before shooting from the hip.

The state of affairs is that the world is screwed up and needs sorting out now. The moonbase is a story for the masses to continue the illusion that everything is ok. How many people in poor countries would want a moon base? Maybe the rich people in them; other than that, none. There are many things they'd want other than money. Just because our leaders are so short sighted as to give foreign leaders money doesn't mean that using money can't have a positive effect on peoples wellbeing.

[edit on 10/12/06 by byhiniur]

This is just stupid, havent they been working on a moon base since the early 60's? Plus most of the moon missions nasa made to the moon were part of cold war propeganda. If it werent for the cold war or nuclear weapons nasa would have never made it. To the person who said that we need to start thinking of ourselves as a whole of a planet and of one it would mean we would have to give up the soverignity and the togetherness that the nations of the world have. It would mean that a one world order would rise to power.

I say we need to save our planet first. WE should think about the other things like global warming, global warming is scheduled to happen within the next few years and it's going to drastically change our planet and we'll end up living in another ice age (just see the day before tommorow if you want to see what the climate of the planet is going to be like after an ice age) it shows what'll happen when the ice age comes.

When the day that a regular civilian can travel into space comes I will be honored. Ten billion dollars is nothing compared to all the black projects though. Why not waste twenty billion? Or thirty?

Only time will tell, havent they been working on this since the sixties, and the seventies?

Originally posted by Maverickhunter
This is just stupid, havent they been working on a moon base since the early 60's?

Longer thab that LOL and the Apollo missions were a cover

I say we need to save our planet first. WE should think about the other things like global warming, global warming is scheduled to happen within the next few years and it's going to drastically change our planet

Quite right!!! And were working on it... despite what you have been led to believe Global warming that is in progress RIGHT NOW [we have record 75 degrees here in Las Vegas right now] has nothing to do with Mankinds pollution or even billions of people breathing out greenhouse gases... To be sure.. it IS a contributing factor...

But its major changes on the Sun that are to blame... they are occuring NOW Just check around any scientific board. Chemtrails are an effort to block this extra radiation from space. May or may not work... we have no way to tell... Cut the space program? now? That would be a BAD IDEA....

Don't believe me? Not surprised... you all spend way to much time hiding in here LOL

But don't take my word for it...


NASA Space Weather News...

In other news the Sun had a HUGE Solar flare on the 6th of December...

SOLAR TSUNAMI: When sunspot 930 exploded on Dec. 6th, producing an X6-category flare, it also created a tsunami-like shock wave that rolled across the face of the sun, wiping out filaments and other structures in its path. A telescope in New Mexico operated by the National Solar Observatory recorded a must-see movie of the wave, featured today on
spaceweather.com....

Originally posted by byhiniur
If you were highly in debt how much would be spent on speculation and fun?

Well I am highly in debt... mortgage, car payments etc... pretty much like most Americans...
I spend as much as I can on speculation and fun...
Otherwise what is the point of working and making money?

However unlike the Government, I can't change the rules and wipe out the debt by say changing price of gold and selling off Fort Knox reserves...

As to the Mining and Bases... mark my words... I have it on good authority from inside sources... just watch CNN over the next few years...

Catch ya later I have a mnin thread to attend