Daniel 12: are we near the end?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

Originally posted by thehumbleone
What? you guys don't even know what you are saying, i'm catholic and we believe the same thing as any other christian, the father,son,holy spirit are all the same ONE God.

actually, unitarians do not believe there is a father, son, and holy spirit, they just believe in GOD
not in a 3 in 1 beling, a 1 in 1 being
or am i mistaken?
any unitarians here to help me out?

Then they are not christians, i thought the definition of a christan was someone who believed in the deity of christ?

[edit on 5-12-2006 by thehumbleone]

There are definite differences between Protestant Christians and Catholics.

Christians believe in “Sola Scriptura” while Catholics believe both the Bible and Catholic tradition hold equal value. Many of their doctrines such as purgatory, praying to the saints, worship or veneration of Mary, etc. have little or no basis at all in Scripture but are based on Roman Catholic traditions. Essentially the Roman Catholic Church’s denial of “Sola Scriptura” and their insistence that both the Bible and their “Sacred Tradition” are equal in authority undermines the sufficiency, authority and completeness of the Bible and is at the root of many other of the differences between Catholics and Protestants.

Another major difference between Catholicism and Protestantism is over the office and authority of the Pope. According to Catholicism the Pope is the “Vicar of Christ” (a vicar is a substitute) and takes the place of Jesus as the visible head of the Church. As such he has the ability to speak “ex cathedra” (with authority on matters of faith and practice) and when he does so his teachings are considered infallible and binding upon all Christians. Protestants believe that no human being is infallible and that Christ alone is the head of the church. Protestants believe that the church’s authority does not come from some type of Apostolic succession but instead is derived from the Word of God. While Catholicism teaches that only the Catholic Church can interpret the Bible, Protestants believe that the Bible teaches that God sent the Holy Spirit to indwell all born again believers and it is the Holy Spirit that is really Christ’s substitute.

John 14:16-17: “I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.”

Another major difference is “Sola Fide” (faith alone) which affirms the biblical doctrine of justification by grace alone through faith alone because of Christ alone (Ephesians 2:8-10). Roman Catholicism states that man cannot be saved by faith alone in Christ alone. They teach that the Christian must rely on faith plus “good works” in order to be saved. Catholics believe in the seven sacraments which are: baptism, confirmation, the Eucharist, Penance, anointing of the sick, Holy Orders and matrimony. Protestants believe that on the basis of Faith in Christ alone, believers are justified by God as all their sins are paid for by Christ on the cross and His righteousness is imputed to them. Catholics on the other hand believe that Christ’s righteousness is imparted to the believer but in itself is not sufficient to justify the believer and that the believer must supplement with good works.

There are other differences such as Purgatory which is nowhere in the Bible. The Roman Catholic viewpoint on salvation implies that Christ’s atonement on the cross was not sufficient payment for the sins of those who believe in him and that even a believer must pay for his own sins either through acts of penance or time in purgatory. The Bible however teaches over and over that it is Christ’s death alone that can satisfy God’s wrath against sinners (Romans 3:25; Hebrews 2:17; 1 John 2:2; 1 John 4:10) and that our works of righteousness can't add to what Christ has already done.

God saves us “not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life” (Titus 3:5-7).

I think you all get the idea with these few examples.

Next stop, the Holy Trinity!

Faith and works are both needed to be saved, how can you prove your faith without works, anyone can say they believe in jesus but what do they do to prove it?

James 2:14-26

Faith Without Works Is Dead

14What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? 17So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.


18But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder! 20Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"-- and he was called a friend of God. 24You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead. James 2:14-26

Jesus also said we are going to be rewarded according to our works:

12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."
Revelation 22:12-13

Everything Jesus speaks about here are all works:

Matthew25:31-46
The Final Judgment
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' 37Then the righteous will answer him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?' 40And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.'


41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?' 45Then he will answer them, saying, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' 46And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew25:31-46

[edit on 5-12-2006 by thehumbleone]

There are other differences such as Purgatory which is nowhere in the Bible. The Roman Catholic viewpoint on salvation implies that Christ’s atonement on the cross was not sufficient payment for the sins of those who believe in him and that even a believer must pay for his own sins either through acts of penance or time in purgatory.

You got it all wrong pal, we believe Jesus payment on the cross was enough, we just believe purgatory is a kind of "soul cleansing" which is necessary before entering heaven.

We ARE NOT paying for our own sins, Jesus already did that.

Everything else you posted about catholics is all wrong, but i do not feel like explaining myself to protestants like I always have too. :shk:

Stop posting your one-sided lies about Catholics.



[edit on 6-12-2006 by thehumbleone]

Do you really need to be rude to me? This is my experience with Catholics. Just because I do not agree with Catholisicm is no reason to treat me with disrespect.

As a Christian I am working "from" salvation not "to" it. Christ paid the price for my sins and that's all that is needed. John 3:16 doesn't say "maybe".

Since this is your thread I will go elsewhere. It is sad the way I am treated to feel unwelcome as I am not against you personally.

Aren't we getting a little off topic? Remember this is supposed to be a discussion of "Daniel 12: are we near the end?"

Originally posted by jbondo
Do you really need to be rude to me? This is my experience with Catholics. Just because I do not agree with Catholisicm is no reason to treat me with disrespect.

As a Christian I am working "from" salvation not "to" it. Christ paid the price for my sins and that's all that is needed. John 3:16 doesn't say "maybe".

Since this is your thread I will go elsewhere. It is sad the way I am treated to feel unwelcome as I am not against you personally.

How was i being rude to you? I was merely correcting your false interpretation of Catholicism.

humbleone, jbono is actually quite right about catholic doctrine
“Sola Scriptura” is not at all a tennent of catholic belief
catholicism excludes the creation story as nothing more than a fable (the pope himself said that intelligent design is poppycock)

how does a lowly atheist like me know this?
i was a catholic longer than i've been an atheist

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
humbleone, jbono is actually quite right about catholic doctrine
“Sola Scriptura” is not at all a tennent of catholic belief
catholicism excludes the creation story as nothing more than a fable (the pope himself said that intelligent design is poppycock)

how does a lowly atheist like me know this?
i was a catholic longer than i've been an atheist

Really, because all the catholics i know believe in the creation story, including myself.

And the whole pope, thing, idon't agree with him on that, ever since Vatican 2 came along i don't know whats gotten into them.

[edit on 6-12-2006 by thehumbleone]

thehumbleone, it isn't that you aren't allowed to believe in the creation story, it's that you don't have to believe in it

and what's so bad about vatican 2?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
thehumbleone, it isn't that you aren't allowed to believe in the creation story, it's that you don't have to believe in it

and what's so bad about vatican 2?

It's not that i don't like vatican II, i actually like a of stuff about it, i guess it's more about certain things the popes do.

Originally posted by thehumbleone
Then they are not christians, i thought the definition of a christan was someone who believed in the deity of christ?

[edit on 5-12-2006 by thehumbleone]

No, a Christian is someone who believes and follows the teachings of Christ.

I don't really have anything original to contribute to the age old philosophical dilemma of free will and pre-determination, other than God's probably able to do both. Or at least give the illusion of free will until such time as it is given up freely.

"But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. "

Yes, that does sound very much like the present time. Everyone is running to and fro all day long and not really going anywhere. lol. It does seem that so many of the 'signs' are there. One has to remember that every age has had its' group of people signaling that the end-times have arrived. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best, I think.

I take comfort in this:

"Lord, I am with you always - Even unto the end of the world." Matt 28:20

Originally posted by clearwater
I don't really have anything original to contribute to the age old philosophical dilemma of free will and pre-determination, other than God's probably able to do both. Or at least give the illusion of free will until such time as it is given up freely.

"But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. "

Yes, that does sound very much like the present time. Everyone is running to and fro all day long and not really going anywhere. lol. It does seem that so many of the 'signs' are there. One has to remember that every age has had its' group of people signaling that the end-times have arrived. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best, I think.

I take comfort in this:

"Lord, I am with you always - Even unto the end of the world." Matt 28:20

Yes, every culture has believed that, but there is something different in the times we live in, now we have technology, and the ability to annihilate ourselve with the creation of the nuclear bomb. For me, i think this is a big signal, and also the rebirth of Israel.

[edit on 6-12-2006 by thehumbleone]

Well, for those who believe in biblical prophecy, it states that the generation that sees the birth of the state of Israel will be the generation that see the return of Christ. Israel became a state in 1948.so... a generation is considered what? Seventy years? ....

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Well, for those who believe in biblical prophecy, it states that the generation that sees the birth of the state of Israel will be the generation that see the return of Christ. Israel became a state in 1948.so... a generation is considered what? Seventy years? ....

and this is why people that believe bible prophecy scare me
they believe the end is so close that we are going to see it in my lifetime
if those people gain political power, would they use their power to hasten this process?

@ Madness

Yeah, those that you are alluding to are generally called "Christian" Zionists...I have posted about them several times so I am not going to go into it here. Wikipedia has a fairly decent overview about them and there is a lot of information on the net about them..

We've had the technology to wipe ourselves off the planet for quite a few years now. At any moment in our entire history the earth could burp up a bacterium that's instantly deadly to every living mammal on the planet.

I find it a miracle everday when some horror of a biological splice doesn't escape some decrepit bio-warfare lab and destroy us all.

Speakeroftruth quotes
Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Hasn't that also always been going on?

Isn't the point of Revelations and eschatology to act as a reminder of our limits. In that way every person will meet their 'end of the world' in death and the metaphorical value of the text lies in how it encourages our humility and not our fear?

That said, it does appear to be an interesting time to live. I'm just really out of patience for those people using biblical text to justify wars.

[edit on 8-12-2006 by clearwater]

I don't believe we can change prophecy, I believe it's set in stone. Altering it would create a parodox that those who have contemplated time travel will appreciate.

You use the prophecy to avoid the end times, so they never happen. However, this means that the person in the past who looked ahead and saw the future would not have written the prophecy in the first place. And if it wasn't written, you wouldn't know the prophecy, and wouldn't be able to stop it from happening, and etc.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
if those people gain political power, would they use their power to hasten this process?

It is quite possible "they" already have. Israel is the key here.

Of course, there are many things that are meant to come to pass in "the end times," the rise in knowledge being just one of them. Many of the events are things that may be instituted by man, of his free will.

It is very unlikely that any educated western man would not have heard enough bible prophesy to realize that certain major events that he may be helping along have eerie similarities to the events that must come in the end times.

The re-creation of the state of Israel after over 1000 years in exile by the "one world government" cant be ignored in the context of your post or in the face of the Lord's prophesy through Daniel.

Would a group of nations truly not realize that by re-creating Israel they were fulfilling major prophesy?

Were the fathers of the US (or the current leaders for that matter) really blind to prophesy of Israel being rescued on the wings of an eagle? Why do you think we support Israel in all her endeavors?

Can any politician, be he atheist or Christian, really say that he supports mandatory biochip implants which will, among other things, be used for all sanctioned trade without realizing the fulfillment of prophesy?

No, the "movers and shakers" of recent history cannot be so blind. Can they?