Harper Declares Quebec A Nation Within Canada

Vitchilo, thank you very much for being the first person who has ever given me a response about the First Nations. So each First Nation would be able to choose if they wanted to be in Canada or Quebec and there would be negotiations if they opted out of Quebec?

They already have free territory given to them by Quebec, they just have to choose where they want it to be. Canada promised money (50B$ I think) to them to close the case. So first nations from the fed receive money and from quebec, territory.

I don't get your answer about being Quebekers. I understand that it's an identity thing, but I still don't understand why the rest of Canada sucks so much. I don't care if people from Quebec want to call themselves Quebekers, I just would like them to be Quebekers in Canada. People's feelings get hurt because we see it as some kind of rejection. That's why it appears that there is animosity.

We don't want to seperate because we think Canada sucks, aside the prime minister in Afghanistan, relations with Bush, pro-Israël... you know foreign policies, but because we want our country. I know it wouldn't make a big change but it's just the idea of having a country for you, that's it. It's the idea, just like you like the idea of freedom.

The thing about the immigrants is that they are also citizens of Quebec. They pay taxes and deserve equal representation. That means they are entitled to a vote in any referendum, and that vote should be worth the same as any other. To do anything else is elitist and casts the people who wish for separation in a bad light. It puts the immigrants in the same position that Quebec is claiming they are in. A minority in a nation that doesn't value them or listen to them. If Quebec doesn't like having immigrants, stop letting them into the province. Don't take their tax money and then tell them they don't get a say in what happens. That's just not fair.

I agree, my comment was very stupid. People say those things because they say immigrants don't care and don't understand why we want our country and they fear that we would end up with no money.

This will either go down in history as a brilliant move by Harper to undermine the souverainists or a total political fiasco. Time will tell.

The conspiracy angle to me is that this may be a stealth manoeuvre to help the Alberta seperatist movement. After all, his party is strongest there and every time oil politics come into play in Canada the spectre of Albertan seperatism comes into play.

As for Quebec, let me say this. I'm a franco-Ontarian born and raised about 120 kilometres from Montreal. The French/English divide has been a part of my life since I can remember and I have swung from one side of the debate to the other all my life.

Don't look for pragmatism in this debate.
Don't look for logic.
Don't look for any sense whatsoever.

For Quebecers, the question of sovereignty is an EMOTIONAL cultural manifestation by a populous with a deep seated inferiority complex.

I could write tomes about it, but frankly I'm sick of the whole thing.
.

[edit on 11/24/2006 by Gools]

Ha... Finally! Quebec can be their own nation I will not complain. They should have done this long time ago. They do everything on their own anyways so they may as well be separate from Canada too! A nice border would be good too between them and Ontario. Although I don't know what that would do for the atlantic provinces like Nova Scotia and Newfoundland. They really would be far from us.. Hmm... good point.. I dunno.. but still Quebec can leave!

I say let Quebec become a sovereign nation and let the chips fall where they may. It inevitable anyway. It'll save a lot of stress in the long run.

[edit on 2006/11/24 by GradyPhilpott]

They are free to separate as long as their populace votes in favor of separation. That has failed twice now. Third time a charm? I'll believe it when I see it.

There's also the issue of Native Sovereignty. They have repeatedly stated that they do NOT want to separate from Canada and since they control the majority of the Natural Resources in Quebec, it makes the situation a whole lot more interesting.

Speaking of natural resources...

Alberta comes to mind. And not just the oil, either. Water is rapidly becoming a valuable "commodity."

Seems like Harper is establishing a precedent to give his main constituency what they really want.

The only thing that is binding is a referendum by the people of Quebec(or Alberta). I see no precedent setting remarks in this "statement".

Frankly, I could care less. A more decentralized Canada may turn out to be a good thing. I would love it if Ontario had that much power.

Also what's interesting to note is that the NDP supported this move as did the Liberal front runner. A tri-partisan conspiracy to derail the sovereigntists could be afoot.

[edit on 25-11-2006 by sardion2000]

Originally posted by sardion2000

A more decentralized Canada may turn out to be a good thing. I would love it if Ontario had that much power.

Gulp. I live in MB.

Also what's interesting to note is that the NDP supported this move as did the Liberal front runner. A tri-partisan conspiracy to derail the sovereigntists could be afoot.

Here's hoping.

I'm quick to make negative interpretations here - don't trust Harper's abilities OR motives. Not objective.

More than half the population of quebec have chosen to remain part of Canada. That isn't changing.

They just need to sort out their education system so kids grow up bilingual. Or else remain in 'le ghetto francais'.

Well I'm sure making an independent nation is not easy. If Quebec does seperate(and i dont really know what im talking about concerning canada) I would imagine that they will need ALOT of support from Canada, US, France and any other countries that want to help.

What about an army? Any plans for that? Maybe instead of wanting independance, Quebec should lobby for national legislation securing the French language.

Culture is an individual thing, and has nothing to do with government. Unless of course it makes laws suppressing cultural activities. Has Canada done such a thing since it's poor treatment of the natives?

Originally posted by nextguyinline
Maybe instead of wanting independance, Quebec should lobby for national legislation securing the French language.

They got that a long time ago. They want more. Always more more more. Like some above, I too am just freaking tired of this whole thing. I wish we could set a limit to how many referendums a particular party can hold on a particular issue, say 3 per century?

Culture is an individual thing, and has nothing to do with government. Unless of course it makes laws suppressing cultural activities. Has Canada done such a thing since it's poor treatment of the natives?

Long and sad history. The last violence was the FLQ Bombings, which culminated in the Pierre Laporte assassination and Martial Law.

Originally posted by jra

Originally posted by denythestatusquo
This makes me happy because the reality of Quebec leaving Canada is becoming a subject of discussion again. They will go and the sooner the better for the rest of us.

Ignorance at its finest

How is this good for Canada? It's quite the opposite really...

One of many links you can read to educate yourself on the issue
[edit on 24-11-2006 by jra]

Umm how do I respond to this? I'm 46 years old and lived in Canada my entire life, I'm fourth generation and I've probably seen more of Quebec than most people outside of the province.

I've been involved in politics for years and I've met PM Harper.

Do I know what I'm talking about? probably not but my opinion will matter long before yours does.

Originally posted by nextguyinline
What about an army? Any plans for that? Maybe instead of wanting independance, Quebec should lobby for national legislation securing the French language.

I doubt they'd need much of an army, heck Canada doesn't have much of one anyway...they'd be surrounded by what's left of Canada (if anything) and the U.S. I doubt the U.S. would attack them, even if the rest of Canada eventually joined the U.S. (and if we did, I doubt any army they could raise in Quebec would be able to do much about it anyway).

@ "The rest of Canada Joining the US". That's just too funny. You may be able to snag Alberta and Manitoba(and they wouldn't be missed much either), but BC? Ontario? Quebec? Saskatchewan? The East Coast Provinces? The Vast Northern Territories? I highly doubt it.

Originally posted by sardion2000
:
You may be able to snag ...Manitoba(and they wouldn't be missed much either),

Oh sardion!

That is a LOW blow.

I thought we were friends? Mutually respectful and all that. Wha' hoppened?

PS. You're wrong. Manitoba would NEVER go for it. ...I hope.

As a Scotian I LOVE Manitoban's, kindred folk. Nice to see similar people in the center of the country.

This is all smoke and mirrors. Quebec is going nowhere. MB is going nowhere, Albt's is going nowhere. No province will leave Confederation. You'll find that Canadian's will bitch about something they don't like about today's policies BUT they are still content with being Canadian. That includes Quebec. A foot is needed there, let them know that the rest of the country is here. Call a referendum. It'll fail, AGAIN. If Leveque couldn't bring a winning one in, no one can.

"Turn the page."

Harpers statement to the effect that Quebec is a "naition" seemed very sudden to me. There is no debate here, no sense of a national consensus at all. It is just Harper stating this as if it were a fait accompli. I am sorry, but this smacks of fascism. The PM is issuing this as a near dictatorial missive, without allowing the general populace time to consider and reflect on whether this is the best route to go, both for Quebec and other provinces. The real question is what does "nation" mean here? What actual change is this going to have on people s actual lives? What does it mean for Quebec? What does it mean for the rest of the provinces? It seems to me that this statement is an attempt to forestall the BQ, by appearing to give them what they want without a genuine comittment to what the term "nation" really entails. It puts the seperatist movement into the difficult political situation of having to argue against Quebec's being a nation if they want to fully seperate from Canada. I have always felt that Canada's multi-cultural policy to be not only a very enlightened one, but also the only realistic and pragmatical solution as well, not only for Canada, for also for the entire planet. Harper s party is far from sympathetic to Quebec, but they need Quebec votes. It is an attempt to have your cake and eat it as well. What do Harper and his extreme right conservatives have to gain from this "pronouncement"? - this is the only question that can make sense of the issue - and the only way to analyze a party that is itself only interested in power as such.

Jesus..

Who cares about who hates who? We hate Europeans, Asians, and Arabs. They all hate us. Canadians hate us. Europeans hate each other. Arabs are divided. Everybody hates Israel. Africans fight for food. South Americans..who cares. Russians hate us. We hate Russians. Everybody hates everybody.

Good. Now that we have that settled. All of you can kindly shutup about it.

For all of you in Quebec..

You're not going anywhere*evil laugh*

Trust me when I tell you this..

Your little dream of being your own nation won't happen. The U.S. government has too much influence. They want their little North American Union plan to come to life, and you're going down with the rest of us.

So, keep dreaming my friends, but soon, very soon, 2010, you will be in the newly formed police state, the completely militarized, United States dominated, North American Union. You will have no say. Neither will Mexico, but that was expected. The United States and the big, greedy corporations, and the private groups will write the Constitution. They will tell you how things will be run, and you're going to listen.

It's too late. There's nothing you can do. So keep dreaming.

I don't want it to happen, so don't take my post the wrong way. I'm not taunting you or anything, because trust me, we'll suffer just as much as you and the rest of Canada. I'm just laughing it off because I'm finding comedy in the whole situation, which I typically do when I accept mine and other's fate as being something bad or against their will.

Ah, the next few years will be exciting indeed.

Good luck everybody