When did chemtrails start?

..or have supposed to have started? Just asking because I remember watching long smoke-trails from planes when I was about 10 or 11 years old (I'm 40 now), which would've been in the 1970s. We all assumed at the time they were high-flying planes heading over to Vietnam. When you think of all the trouble we had in this little country in the 70s it makes we wonder....

Ok, just found some links and the earliest date they have is 1990.

www.chemtrailcentral.com...

Funny, some of the photos look EXACTLY like what I remember seeing as a kid. Either they started much earlier than anyone believes or it's all a big mistake and there are no such thing as chemtrails.

Over to you peeps...

[edit on 21/11/06 by jimboman]

Originally posted by jimboman
..or have supposed to have started? Just asking because I remember watching long smoke-trails from planes when I was about 10 or 11 years old (I'm 40 now), which would've been in the 1970s.

notice you dont see those anymore? that's because they were older less efficient engines that smoked oil. modern jet engines are much more efficient. the only chemical in those smoke trails were by-products of the powerplant.....oil residue, water, etc.

Originally posted by jimboman
Ok, just found some links and the earliest date they have is 1990.

www.chemtrailcentral.com...

Funny, some of the photos look EXACTLY like what I remember seeing as a kid. Either they started much earlier than anyone believes or it's all a big mistake and there are no such thing as chemtrails.

Over to you peeps...

[edit on 21/11/06 by jimboman] [/quote

Bet on the latter. Persisting contrails have been noticed since planes were able to reach high altitudes, and besides, several of us have been asking chemtrail believers exactly why in their opinion contrails CANNOT persist, and all we get is the internet equivlant of crickets chirping.

Some of us here are very knowledgable about aviation and meteorology, but we seem to be the last people those who believe in chemtrails want to talk to.

Persisting Contrails or what you call 'Chemtrails', have been around since the birth of avation (Well high flying planes anyway).

There is no reason suggesting that contrails can't persist, and in some conditions they do persist.

The hoax started in the 90’s about the time that the internet came into common use. I worked an airport ramp (Ramp Supervisor) well after this bunch of BS was thought up, and I attest, same as Firepilot (I forget what he did), PisTonZOR (relative of a mechanic), Snafu (air traffic controller), Zaphod (Airport security), and OffTheStreet (Boeing Engineer), that this is pure BS, plain and simple.

I have no problem believing that these guys have worked in the same field as they each have shown inside knowledge and lingo in other threads or in chat. I even found out that Zaphod and I worked for different departments at different stations in the same company at one point. Add to that list some of the other folks here such as Howard, and Essen that have an excellent knowledge of meteorology, and you have a pretty impressive list of very credible folks telling you that Chemtrails are a hoax, a scam, or ignorance of aviation pure and simple.

Originally posted by firepilot

Originally posted by jimboman
Ok, just found some links and the earliest date they have is 1990.

www.chemtrailcentral.com...

Funny, some of the photos look EXACTLY like what I remember seeing as a kid. Either they started much earlier than anyone believes or it's all a big mistake and there are no such thing as chemtrails.

Over to you peeps...

[edit on 21/11/06 by jimboman] [/quote

Bet on the latter. Persisting contrails have been noticed since planes were able to reach high altitudes, and besides, several of us have been asking chemtrail believers exactly why in their opinion contrails CANNOT persist, and all we get is the internet equivlant of crickets chirping.

Some of us here are very knowledgeable about aviation and meteorology, but we seem to be the last people those who believe in chemtrails want to talk to.

I didn't say I believed in them, I was just hoping to catch somebody out!!

The reason is because I've noticed that maybe somebody on tv or on the net comes up with an idea then all of a sudden these other people jump on it and it gets a life of it's own. Usually with all kinds of spurious 'proof' that doesn't stand up.
Forgive for ranting here, but John Lear is an example. (numerous threads, look them up).

That Serpo thing, and the John Titor incident, are also examples.

Why is this all in a quote box?

[edit on 23/11/06 by jimboman]

Originally posted by jimboman

Originally posted by firepilot

Originally posted by jimboman
Ok, just found some links and the earliest date they have is 1990.

www.chemtrailcentral.com...

Funny, some of the photos look EXACTLY like what I remember seeing as a kid. Either they started much earlier than anyone believes or it's all a big mistake and there are no such thing as chemtrails.

Over to you peeps...

[edit on 21/11/06 by jimboman]

Bet on the latter. Persisting contrails have been noticed since planes were able to reach high altitudes, and besides, several of us have been asking chemtrail believers exactly why in their opinion contrails CANNOT persist, and all we get is the internet equivlant of crickets chirping.

Some of us here are very knowledgeable about aviation and meteorology, but we seem to be the last people those who believe in chemtrails want to talk to.

I didn't say I believed in them, I was just hoping to catch somebody out!!

The reason is because I've noticed that maybe somebody on tv or on the net comes up with an idea then all of a sudden these other people jump on it and it gets a life of it's own. Usually with all kinds of spurious 'proof' that doesn't stand up.
Forgive for ranting here, but John Lear is an example. (numerous threads, look them up).

That Serpo thing, and the John Titor incident, are also examples.

Why is this all in a quote box?

[edit on 23/11/06 by jimboman]

because you didnt close the quote box....here ya go.

If you look at old National Geographic Magazines cica 1987, you can clearly see them spraying in full page pictures. If you can find some old magazines like National Geographic that is a good place to start. By the way don't listen to any of these debunkers, they're just doing their job.

Originally posted by greydawn
If you look at old National Geographic Magazines cica 1987, you can clearly see them spraying in full page pictures. If you can find some old magazines like National Geographic that is a good place to start. By the way don't listen to any of these debunkers, they're just doing their job.

HM, well since a lot of folks here know what it is that guys like me and Zaph do career wise now, I would like to know by what evidence you are calling us debunkers. If I am doing my job, I would like to know when I am going to get paid for it.

To be honest your Chemtrail-Hoax sites stand a much greater chance to be making money off this bunch of BS through selling advertising on their sites.

Since you seem to think you have this all figured out, I would like to know where on a commercial aircraft that the tanks that hold this stuff are located, what ground service vehicle is pumping it on board, and where its being stored in the airports?

I have shown before what each vehicle pumps and have explained that there are no such storage facilities on airport property. It is also inconceivable that the thousands of airport workers, all of which work for different companies, would keep such a thing secret.

If you think that the trails are more persistent, try investigating the change in atmospheric temperature, the change in aircraft engine fan diameter, and the increase in air traffic that has occurred since the late 80’s. Study VOR's and learn what a flight bank is then come back here and tell us how this is occurring...

I've worked in the industry also, and i don't believe every boeing has a chemtrail machine hidden in the tailcone as is said, but i can see some planning going into the design of airway routing, separation minimums, etc. to cause a high local concentration of standard contrails, wth the result of forming artificial cloud cover to increse planetary albedo. I don't think the guy on the ground with the single point is in on it, if so i wasn't briefed on it either.

I also don't discount that there are a few true chemtrail aircraft out there, doing things like cloud seeding or other weather control stuff, but they'd be based in secure locations and somehow work their way into and out of the system on the DL. After all, last year on october the weather modification bill went through, there's gotta be a reason for it.

Originally posted by DezertSkies
I've worked in the industry also, and i don't believe every boeing has a chemtrail machine hidden in the tailcone as is said, but i can see some planning going into the design of airway routing, separation minimums, etc. to cause a high local concentration of standard contrails, wth the result of forming artificial cloud cover to increse planetary albedo. I don't think the guy on the ground with the single point is in on it, if so i wasn't briefed on it either.

I also don't discount that there are a few true chemtrail aircraft out there, doing things like cloud seeding or other weather control stuff, but they'd be based in secure locations and somehow work their way into and out of the system on the DL. After all, last year on october the weather modification bill went through, there's gotta be a reason for it.

You have voted DezertSkies for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.

Best Supporting Member Nominee, Congratulations DezertSkies

Congratulations - Voted For Way Above Top Secret Award

"Outstanding!"

[edit on 24-11-2006 by 7Ayreon]

Originally posted by DezertSkies
and i don't believe every boeing has a chemtrail machine hidden in the tailcone as is said

None of them do, you should know better. Depending on the aircraft, the tialcone is either an escape shoot, an engine, or and APU exhaust. Nothing chemtrailish about any of them.

Originally posted by DezertSkies
but i can see some planning going into the design of airway routing, separation minimums, etc. to cause a high local concentration of standard contrails, wth the result of forming artificial cloud cover to increse planetary albedo. I don't think the guy on the ground with the single point is in on it, if so i wasn't briefed on it either.

Even if this is true, its not chemtrails, but contrails being concentrated. As to the routing and such I will have to leave that to someone like Snafu, who has a knowledge more in the ATC side of things.

Originally posted by DezertSkies
I also don't discount that there are a few true chemtrail aircraft out there, doing things like cloud seeding or other weather control stuff, but they'd be based in secure locations and somehow work their way into and out of the system on the DL.

Cloud seeding has an entirely different look to it then these supposed Chemtrails do. I don’t think that anyone here disputes that there are a few aerosol release aircraft out there. Ones used for crop dusting, cloud seeding, air shows and the like, but they are not what the average Chemi is talking about. Now, is it possible that the USAF has some aircraft out there to do military ops that require some form of aerial spraying, sure it is; But these would be few and far between, and certainly not with the frequency that it is mentioned on sites like this.

Originally posted by DezertSkies
After all, last year on october the weather modification bill went through, there's gotta be a reason for it.

If I recall correctly, the one senator that got conned by the Chemi’s to add this to his bill pretty much got it laughed right out of house. If memory serves, it might have passed, but only after that bit was removed.


[edit on 11/24/2006 by defcon5]

Okay, here's the bills, i was referring to:

www.govtrack.us...

www.govtrack.us...

If the project is black now, and tested and proven, the bills could pave the way for legal implementation of plans, not merely research.

I don't believe the tower or center guys are in on it, what i'm saying is that if enough traffic flies the SIDs and STARS, airways, intersections, at the right altitudes and spacing, basically by the book, then the patterns will appear on any moderate air traffic day under the right atmospheric conditions.

Which means, whoever writes the procedures would have to be in on it, somewhere in the great bearucracy that is the FAA. I've had to deal with the chart publishes before to get changes made to a sectional to revise outdated radionav information at my airport, took me and my successor 5 years to get an inoperatve NDB taken off. I even had the FAA fly over and try to find the NDB signal to prove it was inop, and it still took years. As slow, clogged and strangled in red tape, and letahrgic the system is, i could see a few key upper management guys being in on it and directing their meat robots to publish the routes. If there's anything to this at all, that's where it'd have to be, too many pilots and crew talk to each other to keep anything that flies a secret for long.

I don't doubt they're doing wxmod, but they're not doing it like everyone thinks, it's much more embedded, it'd have to be to work, it's not a secret if everyone knows, and i've yet to have even the blank white government aircraft that would come in at odd hours ask for a 2000lbs of jetA in the center and to top off the chemtrail tank.

If it ever did come down to an official inquiry to the FAA, they'd whip out the charts and say "look, here's the aiways, altitudes, and traffic density, contrials form here and here and here because of natural enviromnental factors" and it'd make sense if you ignored who published the charts in the first place.

Originally posted by DezertSkies
Okay, here's the bills, i was referring to:

www.govtrack.us...

www.govtrack.us...

You are correct that is a different bill then the one I was referring too. The one I mentioned was a space weapon bill.

interdisciplinary research and coordination of research and activities to improve understanding of processes relating to weather modification, including cloud modeling, cloud seeding, improving forecast and decision-making technologies, related severe weather research, and potential adverse affects of weather modification

The only Arial application I see mentioned in this bill is in reference to cloud seeding. This has been done on small scale since at least the 50’s, there is nothing new or sinister about it. Cloud seeding also looks nothing like what supposed Chemtrail spraying looks like.

Originally posted by DezertSkies
I don't believe the tower or center guys are in on it, what i'm saying is that if enough traffic flies the SIDs and STARS, airways, intersections, at the right altitudes and spacing, basically by the book, then the patterns will appear on any moderate air traffic day under the right atmospheric conditions.

It looks like your new here so maybe you don’t understand what the gripe is from the Chemmie’s. Their main gripe is not that the sky is overcast, but that there are dangerous chemicals being sprayed from commercial and military air traffic. These dangerous substances include such things as aluminum, blood, and web-like fibers. They claim that these substances cause a range of maladies including respiratory failure, asthma, COPD, Bronchitis, etc. They similarly claim that respiratory aliments are on the increase due to this activity. I now work for a Pulmonologist office, and there is no drastic increase in respiratory ailments that cannot be attributed to anything beyond normal means, population increase, increase in pollution, smoking, Chemicals used in home restoration (seemingly everyones big new hobby), chemicals exposure in the workplace, etc.

Originally posted by DezertSkies
too many pilots and crew talk to each other to keep anything that flies a secret for long.

Exactly the kinds of things I have been saying here for years, and not only the flight crews, but also the ground crews. If there was anything that was being pumped into the aircraft beyond the standard water, blue-water, fuel, oil, and skydrol the ground crew would know full-well about it; doubly so for the guy that supervises the entire process of ground handling the aircraft.

Originally posted by DezertSkies
and i've yet to have even the blank white government aircraft that would come in at odd hours ask for a 2000lbs of jetA in the center and to top off the chemtrail tank.

Amen brother…

Of course that uplift would have to be in the wings, as we all know that they remove the center and aux to put in the chem-tanks…

Originally posted by DezertSkies
I've worked in the industry also, and i don't believe every boeing has a chemtrail machine hidden in the tailcone as is said, but i can see some planning going into the design of airway routing, separation minimums, etc. to cause a high local concentration of standard contrails, wth the result of forming artificial cloud cover to increse planetary albedo.

umm, no. they are planned around traffic flows, which is the same way radar sector map boundaries are determined....and they change all the time as the traffic increases and navigation equipment is upgraded. for example, the two sectors in my area that work the philadelphia south arrivals have been recently changed to reflect upgrades in navigation equipment. very few aircraft are slant alpha anymore, so they can make tighter and more accurate turns on the arrivals. therefore the southwestern sector was given some of potomac approaches airspace below the arrival path so that we could allow them to turn sooner without the extra coordination.

hope that makes sense to ya.

another good example is a change in airspace configuration we had last year in regards to departing southbound traffic from the washington metros. aircraft climb performance has drastically increased over the last few years, and one of our southern high altitude sectors had it's boundaries moved a little further north to reflect this ability, which also cuts down on coordination and gets the aircraft up to their best performance altitudes more quickly.

I first noticed the chemtrails in the 90's....I became an otr driver and started seeing them all over....because they were in patterns I believed they were seeding clouds...but over the years I have changed my mind...they are not passenger jets they are military...They are doing this all over the world...I do not agree they are comtrails...I saw comtrails on lower jets during the 50's and 60's..they always disappeard over a short time these do not they blossom into cloud coverage...the fact that the aluminum levels are off the charts in our water and land as of 08 I am further convinced it is do to Chemtrails...I watched these planes start and stop these trails as they made a pattern.....I have also seen a pulsating trails. When we started questioning it here the patterns changed to try to blend in....I watched passenger jets and their comtrails end as you would expect them to do...I was watching this before I knew anything about Chemtrails...

i first started seeing chemtrails over ellijay. x's all over the sky in 2000. this began my search for the truth.

Absolutely NOTHING any debunker (or even those genuinely ignorant of Chems) could or might claim would sway me one iota.

I KNOW Chemtrails are a fact.

Can't believe the debunkers even waste their time (or ours) anymore with their fake denials and pseudo-science.

Honestly, do they imagine it's ten years ago or something ? Do they imagine there's still a sizeable percentage of the population which still doesn't know about Chemtrails ? Wrong. We know. And we make sure others know.

Those of you still chanting that Chemtrails are contrails please .. stop wasting my time.

How stupid ARE the debunkers and Chemtrail-pimps, to actually believe what they've been taught, i.e., that the public are sheep ?

Wake up ! It's those of you still peddling the same old lies who're the sheep. You're out of time, out of date, out of touch and have sold your soul very cheaply into the bargain.

The truth is out and has been out for years.

People -- those you imagine to be sheep -- stand with their neighbours and watch the chem-planes laying down their grid patterns over huge and populated areas. Then they watch those trails expand and spread until within a surprisingly short space of time, the entire (previously blue) skies are blanketed in that poisonous Chemtrail 'haze'. Contrails ! Hah ! Even small children know what Chemtrails are, how they're laid, how they expand and spread. And then we see the contrails. Different thing altogether. So go tell your leaders that the sheep know. The game is up. The contrail lie is patently absurd.

Right now, above my head, chems are being laid in parallel lines. It's night time here. They imagine those they regard as 'sheep' don't go out and check the sky at night. Wrong again.

They imagine we don't spend time online, reading about analyses of the gunk being dumped on our crops, water, heads. Incredibly, the 'sheep' are far more well informed about Chemtrails than the trolls who're paid (still ! ) to deny their existence.

If I were employed in the Chemtrail-industry, I'd be sick with worry. Justifiably terrified. Because it's only a matter of time before Mr. and Ms. Public holds those employees personally accountable. And I have a feeling it might be rough-justice.