Make United States Offical Language "English"

Gracias mis amigos. Me gusta mucho los WATS.

I think the reason I make it a point to come down as the voice of reason against this kind of stuff is because it's so dangerous and so potent. Even I'm subject to it at times. I try to remind myself that 3 generations on my dad's side of the family did pretty much the same thing as Mexican-Americans and others before we really integrated.

I'm politically ambitious, got a pretty decent shot of getting into a great school, etc. My parents and grandparents had it OK, but 2 of my great grandparents were dirtfarmers, another one probably owed his start in business to good old fashioned Chicago mafia connections, and at least one of my great great grand parents was fresh off the boat from Ireland before we had immigration controls.

In 50 years, depending in large part on the future of the global economy, there's a fair chance that 3rd and 4th generation Mexican-Americans will be just another bunch of Americans showing extremely selective memories as they complain about how the newest wave of large scale immigration- perhaps Arabs or East-Africans, aren't doing it the way everyone else did.

If it's not the ultra-fundamentalist protestants it's papists. If it's not papists, it's emancipated slaves. If it's not them it's those not-quite-white-enough mediterranean types. If it's not them, it's Mexicans. When it's not them anymore, it'll be somebody else, but three or four generations it always seems to work out. They stick with America through a rough time, they put themselves through college, they choose better jobs, some of them advance themselves, some of them move into your neighborhood, your kids play with their kids, your son asks their daughter out, and next thing you know you don't even know where they're from.
I mean that, you won't know where they're from. You'd think the Japanese stick out like a sore thumb right? One of my best friends is half Japanese. I always assumed he was Mexican. Another buddy of mine is half Mexican; he looks vaguely Italian. Think I look Irish? Not really.

I'm just so friggin amazed that even I, fully realizing all of this, find it so easy to get worked up about things. Yeah I get ticked off when I get a bill or an offer in the mail only in Spanish, or when I get a call from someone who thinks Connors is hard to pronounce. Yeah I get a little intimidated when I go to talk to the neighbor about how loud the music is and the three biggest Mexicans I ever saw all look a little perturbed at me. At times like that it's easy to go home shaking your head and thinking about the awful stuff you'd like to do to those dirty friggin (fill in the blank)s. And don't think I won't lock and load if the reconquista ever becomes more than talk. But you know what, when I step back from it for a second I know it's friggin stupid, and I do what I can to temper that in other people so that they'll check me when I get caught up, because intellectually, I know full well that far and away the most likely scenario is that everything's gonna be fine.

Originally posted by seagull
I love how adopting English as the official language of the United States, or not adopting it, has, for some, become the opening salvo in the war against the rapacious hordes out to destroy our white European heritage. Just one question: How many of those white Europeans actually spoke English as their first language? I'm guessing not all that many, certainly not all of them. English as our "official" language, or not, will make not a whit of differance as to whether or not our culture survives or dies. Cultures adapt to change, or they die. Ours is no different.

I hear the same opening salvos from those who oppose establishing an official language on the grounds that it is designed to destroy cultures, or to make one culture dominant over others.

This is not the case. An official language is intended to make the business of government and commerce flow more smoothly and efficiently. If a nation were forced to support every language whether indigenous or not, it would be cost-prohibitive. If road signs were required to be printed in every language, imagine the cost and clutter. Extrapolate that thinking to all forms of legislation and commerce. Imagine if I bought a meal from you and wanted to pay for it in dinars. Far-fetched? Not really. We have an official curency to avoid those situations, an official language makes as much sense.

Here is one definition of an official language:

An official language is a language that is given a unique legal status in the countries, states, and other territories. It is typically the language used in a nation's legislative bodies, though the law in many nations requires that government documents be produced in other languages as well.

Officially recognized minority languages are often mistaken for official languages. However, a language officially recognized by a state, taught in schools, and used in official communication is not necessarily an official language. For example, Ladin and Sardinian in Italy and Mirandese in Portugal are only officially recognized minority languages, not official languages in the strict sense.

Official languages are sometimes not the same as the medium of instruction and so, the two are not interchangeable.

Almost every sovereign state in the world has at least one official language, as declared in national constitutions, government websites, embassies, or other official sources. Some have only one official language, such as Albania, France, or Lithuania, despite the fact that in all these countries other indigenous languages are spoken as well. Some nations have more than one official language, such as Afghanistan, Belarus, Belgium, Bolivia, Canada, Finland, India, Israel, Malta, Pakistan, Paraguay, South Africa, Singapore, and Switzerland.

A few states, such as Eritrea and the United States, have no official language, although in most such cases there is a single de facto main language, as well as a range of government regulations and practices on which languages are expected to be used in various circumstances.

en.wikipedia.org...

In any discussion of determining an official language, never have I seen someone successfully use the argument that people speaking foreign languages threatens us.

As for cultural evolution, if the future holds an America totally dominated by a language other than English, then efforts to make that language official would be supported. But not at this point in time.

Originally posted by The Vagabond
I think the reason I make it a point to come down as the voice of reason against this kind of stuff is because it's so dangerous and so potent. Even I'm subject to it at times. I try to remind myself that 3 generations on my dad's side of the family did pretty much the same thing as Mexican-Americans and others before we really integrated.

If it's not the ultra-fundamentalist protestants it's papists. If it's not papists, it's emancipated slaves. If it's not them it's those not-quite-white-enough mediterranean types. If it's not them, it's Mexicans. When it's not them anymore, it'll be somebody else, but three or four generations it always seems to work out. They stick with America through a rough time, they put themselves through college, they choose better jobs, some of them advance themselves, some of them move into your neighborhood, your kids play with their kids, your son asks their daughter out, and next thing you know you don't even know where they're from.
I mean that, you won't know where they're from. You'd think the Japanese stick out like a sore thumb right? One of my best friends is half Japanese. I always assumed he was Mexican. Another buddy of mine is half Mexican; he looks vaguely Italian. Think I look Irish? Not really.

I'm just so friggin amazed that even I, fully realizing all of this, find it so easy to get worked up about things. Yeah I get ticked off when I get a bill or an offer in the mail only in Spanish, or when I get a call from someone who thinks Connors is hard to pronounce. Yeah I get a little intimidated when I go to talk to the neighbor about how loud the music is and the three biggest Mexicans I ever saw all look a little perturbed at me. At times like that it's easy to go home shaking your head and thinking about the awful stuff you'd like to do to those dirty friggin (fill in the blank)s. And don't think I won't lock and load if the reconquista ever becomes more than talk. But you know what, when I step back from it for a second I know it's friggin stupid, and I do what I can to temper that in other people so that they'll check me when I get caught up, because intellectually, I know full well that far and away the most likely scenario is that everything's gonna be fine.

This is a classic example of what I have been referring to. Making English the official language would not affect the above one little bit. This is not about culture. It's about making those three big Mexicans learn English if they want an American drivers license or a high school diploma. They can still flip you off in Spanish if they choose to.

Um...Americans don't speak english. To make english the official language of America, Americans would have to learn how to spell. E.G. in english it's neighbour not neighbor ROFL. Make ,"American English", your official language, "english", is what us British people speak.

Originally posted by Elijio
Um...Americans don't speak english. To make english the official language of America, Americans would have to learn how to spell.

E.G. in english it's neighbour not neighbor

ROFL. Make ,"American English", your official language, "english", is what us British people speak.

i was just waiting for the dialectical snobbishness to pop up

english in america is a dialect of the same language they speak in britain, just because we spell differently doesn't make your language a different one

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
just because we spell differently doesn't make your language a different one

OMG that's priceless.
When you install some programs and you are at the language selection screen often you see American english and english as two options no? Because you spell inc..I mean "differently", is the reason why American english is seperate from standard english. SPEAK(standard) ENGLISH!!

I appreciate what you are saying JSOBecky, in that you're not coming from the ethnic nationalist direction, however I still have some reservations.

Our traffic signs are not printed in every other language because we found an easier way- pictograms and other symbols. Red octagon mean cease moving, whether the word is "stop" or "alto".

Similarly, the government has taken the most efficient means of making forms available: printing forms in reasonably common languages and providing for the certification of english translation on english forms for less common languages.

The government has a responsibility to make these forms accessible because these forms are for the administrative convenience of the government, and the government is doing a pretty good job of managing that responsibility.

The government could and quite possibly should take responsibility for providing English education if it intends to require English, because it would be illogical to admit immigrants to our country and then place such barriers before them that they could not become productive, but that would cost even more than forms in several languages.

Therefore, for your point of view, which seeks efficiency of administration and placing responsibility primarily with the individual who chooses to seek a better life in America (which I am not entirely opposed to) the current system is probably the best, in that it allows immigrants to become functional in society to such a degree that they can pursue their own education in English at their own expense.

If you came into this country and couldn't get a drivers license or pay your taxes until you learned english, but had to pay for your own classes in english, you'd be in a catch 22 because you would find it very hard to become lawfully employed without transportation or the ability to file taxes, among other things.

But since you can get started without speaking English in this country, and yet there are social incentives to become functional in English, it is common for people to get jobs and then work to educate themselves in English after the fact.

I work with English Second Language students as a tutor at a community college and I see it in action. Two of my students in particular are great examples. One came from Peru without one word of English literacy, got a job as a dishwasher, worked harder and faster than anyone else till he became a lower-level manager, then started taking night classes so that he could continue to advance. What did it take to turn this immigrant into a productive and integrated part of our society? Not a vast subsidized education program (although it could be argued that such a program still could have benefits). All it took was a DMV form, a W-4, and a job application printed in Spanish. I wonder what those 3 forms cost (per form). I'm guessing 3 bucks is over-estimating.
Another one of my students came in pretty much the same way. She speaks outstanding English now and runs the local DMV. (and although I don't consider it actually a relevant point to this discussion, it is a nice peripheral benefit that she helps out her tutor when he SNAFUs his car registration).

Originally posted by Justmytype
Vagabond,

May I ask your race? Reason being is that you are correct we will be speaking Spanish in the United States if we do not take a stand now. This isnt racially motivated but a preservation of our history and heritage. White "English" speaking Europeans founded this nation and our language is part of our culture. Over the past decade we are slowly loosing our heritage do to all the immigrants who have flooded our country. Do other countries accomidate thier heritage for those who decided to move to thier countries, absolutly not. I feel if you have fled to the United states to become an American, then be one, speak the language, leave your prior countries flag where you came from and embrace our culture as it was. Too many immigrants are under the inconception that they are here to claim a piece of our land, incorrect they should be here to live as we do and honor our country as Americans.

I am sorry but if our country is going to allow all these diffrent ethnicities to embrace thier own culture here on our land, then why bother being a country lets just let the races speak for themselves and fight for ownership of this land.

Parades & Flags.
No more African Americans, No more Italian Americans, No more Muslim Americans no more!!!! By having parades in our country you are showing support from which country you originated from. This shows a direct lack of respect to all American citizens go fly your flag and support your heritage in your own land, your heritage has no say here, honor and respect ours,and fly the american flag and speak english or take your flags and cultures and go back where you came from.

Americans really need to see what is going on. How much respect do you think you would gain from having a American day in another country. Exactly, it dosent happen anywhere else in the world so why should it be tolerated here!

Move forward protect our heritage and culture and pass and sign this petition. Its the only way we can fight to preserve our heritage and History of being Americans and remember all those who came here through Ellis Island embraced American Culture and learned our language and spoke it in public.

Now do whats right!

Justmytype!

Dude sounds like your a white supremisist. if thats the case then I hope that the US adopts Spanish or Hebrew or some language from africa just to piss you off. Now if your thought was just to make things simpler for everyone then yes I would agree with you but a few things you wrote scream out white power and that my friend don't jive with me.

Jsobecky. I understand what you are saying. Some days I agree with you and on some days I don't. English, or American English to you "u" snobs out there , is the defacto official language of the US already. As much as we may want to we can not force people to learn English if they choose not to. All we can do really is strongly encourage them to do so.

I respect your thoughts on this subject though, Jsobecky.

it's not like people can do much without a handle on the english language anyway, so what is the problem

Ok, I see the other side.. sort of. Pictograms are a good example of a way to accomodate multiple languages. But, let me ask you this: do you think this is a non-issue? Should we continue as we are without an official language? Or should we entertain the idea of multiple official languages, with Spanish being the leading contender?

Originally posted by Elijio
Um...Americans don't speak english. To make english the official language of America, Americans would have to learn how to spell.

E.G. in english it's neighbour not neighbor

ROFL. Make ,"American English", your official language, "english", is what us British people speak.

Colour, favour, honour, arse. Color, favor, honor, ass.

Just another example of Yankee efficiency. You Brits like to waste letters.

Originally posted by jsobecky
do you think this is a non-issue? Should we continue as we are without an official language?

I'm not sure it's a non issue exactly, I'm just not sure that an official language is the answer, especially given the way some people understand it. To make a long story short (right before I make it long again) what I'm saying is that "official language" is really not the appropriate term for what I percieve to be the actual controversy.

There has been some discussion of what an official language is earlier and I think this might be a good time for me to take a little time to acknowledge that nuance. English is a de facto official language in most senses of the word. Our legal standards are defined in English, it's used in most government functions, etc.

That is infact different from a recognized minority language (alternate languages in which the government transacts business with citizens and allows/requires public and private entities to be able to do business in).

Then there are mediums of instruction: We primarily teach in English, but in many instances allow for English-Second-Language programs.

I totally get that. The problem is that I don't think the rank and file of the pro-official language crowd does. HR 997, while it required a few amendments to become completely fair and practical, is not necessarily what the far right would expect or want it to be.

Clearly Justmytype had no idea that it only affects the government, because he was complaining about the language of literature in his opening post. I see where he got it. He just doesn't understand the concept of an official language or the requirements of the US Constitution well enough to read that bill (there is an ambiguity in what the bill proposed to make Title 4, Chapter 6, Section 163, paragraph c of the US Code which could be mistakenly read as applying to all publications as opposed to government publications).

So in the context of popular discourse as I observe it (a lot of nationalist citizens believing they're going to make English the only language in America), there's absolutely no way that an "official language" as they understand it is the answer.

Now, a true official language doesn't mean much. English is our defacto official language already. Thats the language of our laws, the language of our governing bodies, the language of record in our courts, etc etc. It won't help much, it won't hurt much, legislate that all you want.


The popular issue seems to be recognition of minority languages for official purposes, medium of instruction, and of course universal fluency in a common language for social purposes.


Multiple officially recognized minority languages is basically what you proposed as an alternative when you asked me the question and in large part we have that. We should definately protect that in our laws in order to ensure that any political entity- federal government, state government, county, municipal government, etc, is required to provide its materials in such a manner that no group constituting a designated percentage of those who must have access is deprived, and furthermore provide for access to a translation service for smaller minorities. For instance, if 10% of the population of a given city only speaks Spanish, or only speaks Korean, or whatever, then that city should probably provide mailings on ballot initiatives, tax forms, etc in their language. Now if .5% of the population in that city only speaks one of those languages, that's another matter, but if the city can make translation software available at the public library or some other such sollution, they should probably do what they realistically can.


Public education should definately make it a priority to get people fluent in English, but that is going to include ESL classrooms. The idea that you can throw somebody into an English-only school without one word of English vocabulary and expect them to catch up through immersion is pretty far out there. You will learn to associate some words with some commands- I'm sure math would be easy enough to get- but a guy who jumps into an english only history or english class at the highschool level with NO english ability is going to stare blankly and get nothing. I bought the immersion thing, but even with 2 and a half years of highschool Spanish and a semester more in college, I can watch Spanish televison all day and not learn a dang thing. I tried repeatedly over the course of this semester. English as the exclusive language of instruction just won't work. Again multiple recognized languages are needed, and there should be an online program for less common languages so that a school doesn't have to hire a teacher and buy texts etc etc just to teach the only 2 students in the school who speak Mandarin.

Then socially speaking, education will solve a lot, but we can't go banning languages obviously, and I think Justmytype is in a very thin minority on that idea. This crap where we suspend students from school for speaking another language with their friends has gotta stop.

but if the city can make translation software available at the public library or some other such sollution, they should probably do what they realistically can.

That is a interesting solution that could accomodate many gov't functions that require a multi-lingual approach. Technology has advanced and is cheap enough (the Marner in me comes out once again) that most cities could do it, esp. with the help of volunteers. But it still leaves the problem of face-to-face communication, such as understanding the order of a police officer or supplying information to medical personnel in an emergency.

It's an issue that's going to require more focus in the near future. It's also an opportunity for those so inclined to take advantage of it.

I think they should make pig latin the official language. That way I wouldn't have to pay my parking tickets becuase I could say I coudn't read them.

OK, now that Ive stirred everyone's panties up into a bunch, I want to thank all of you for participating. My common goal here was to prove that the "English" dialect is more important then most of you realize, this is an international message board consisting of all nationalities as most of you were so proud to disclose. Notice one important factor here, in almost every reply up to this point, I have only seen spanish used in only one post.
Everyone who has replied chose to comment using a dialect of the English language. Why is that? Possibly could it be that the "English" language has more power than most give credit.

Heres an idea, try promoting your own language by using it here on ATS, instead of using English on this board and see how fast communication will fail.

Now, about myself I am not a racist or even a white supremacist, I am part German, French, Dutch and Native American. Oh yeah, hows that bite feel. I consider myself an American thats it. I live for my country and will die for it as well, my intentions are true and have noticed that most of you have difficulty understanding one simple point.

Americans speak "English no matter if proper or not" and if you remove this from our land by allowing all other languages to be accepted in the mainstream, communication will break down amongst all people, goverment, literature etc... and this will cause serious issues. If you dont believe me, start typing all your posts in your native tounge and see how communication will abrubtly become an issue here on ATS!

I bet you it will for the most part segregate most users to only speak to those who can speak thier own language. I thought America was for everone and segregation was not part of our culture or society.

Point being made if America is for everyone than so should be the English Language.

One more thing, I apologize to any and all, who I might have offended in trying to make this point. Regardless to where we all come from, communication with each other in our society here in the United States is "Key" to keep us all from feeling segregated from each other in the human race.

again, if you dont buy into what I am saying, stop typing your dialect of the English language here on ATS and see where it takes us!

just a thought!

[edit on 27-11-2006 by Justmytype]

Originally posted by Justmytype
OK, now that Ive stirred everyone's panties up into a bunch

My panties are only in a bunch because the dryer is broken and when you're a big macho dude like me you don't exactly want to hang your panties out on the clothes line. Sorry, but I can't give you credit there.

Notice one important factor here, in almost every reply up to this point, I have only seen spanish used in only one post. Everyone who has replied chose to comment using a dialect of the English language. Why is that? Possibly could it be that the "English" language has more power than most give credit.

Yeah, we speak English here because we all decided English was the best medium of communication, not because for most of us it just happens to be our first language, and consequently the language in which we search, causing us to arrive at web pages established by other English speakers? Google for conspiracy forums in Spanish and see where you end up.

Food for thought: it is completely by chance that "you" (to the extent that you'd still be you in an alternate life) were not born in Mumbai, Hong Kong, Moscow, Tokyo, or any of a number of other places. Had you been, you would not speak English as a first language, you would search the internet in your native tongue, and you'd be having your discussions on a message board which was established by someone who spoke that language. Would that make your native tongue the most effective medium of communication? No.

Heres an idea, try promoting your own language by using it here on ATS, instead of using English on this board and see how fast communication will fail.

Try using English Aqui smart guy.

Now, about myself I am not a racist or even a white supremacist,

You fooled the hell out of us my friend.

have noticed that most of you have difficulty understanding one simple point.

I think the word you were looking for was simplistic.

by allowing all other languages to be accepted in the mainstream, communication will break down amongst all people, goverment, literature etc... and this will cause serious issues.

Like Europe, right?

again, if you dont buy into what I am saying, stop typing your dialect of the English language here on ATS and see where it takes us!

Pues, la gente solamente puede escuchar a quienes tienen la inteligencia para aprender otras lenguas y su voz va a estar menos poderoso. Es un buena idea! Desculpeme si yo tengo problemas de gramática; quien esta perfecto?

I truly doubt the US official language will be Spanish ever considering immigrants are having children who then learn English and Spanish. English is a worldwide language, even the Chinese teach their kids it. Spanish will never be a worldwide language. So anyone scared that English will be pushed aside have unfounded fears.

Now...we have 300 million people here. That is a lot and slightly a problem.

Whites will be the minority by around 2050 in the United States (and Europe's and Russia's populations are slowly dwindling). I think we need to come to terms with that.

Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor
Whites will be the minority by around 2050 in the United States (and Europe's and Russia's populations are slowly dwindling). I think we need to come to terms with that.

whites may become a minority in numbers, but they will still hold the majority of the wealth and power by 2050

just look at the senate
we have 98 white christians
1 muslim
and 1 african-american

Vagabond,
What actually is a vagabond lets find out.

results for: Vagabond

View results from: Dictionary | Thesaurus | Encyclopedia | the Web
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) - Cite This Source
vag‧a‧bond  /ˈvægəˌbɒnd/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[vag-uh-bond] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. wandering from place to place without any settled home; nomadic: a vagabond tribe.
2. leading an unsettled or carefree life.
3. disreputable; worthless; shiftless.
4. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of a vagabond: vagabond habits.
5. having an uncertain or irregular course or direction: a vagabond voyage.
–noun
6. a person, usually without a permanent home, who wanders from place to place; nomad.
7. an idle wanderer without a permanent home or visible means of support; tramp; vagrant.
8. a carefree, worthless, or irresponsible person; rogue.
[Origin: 1400–50; late ME vagabound (< OF vagabond)< LL vagābundus wandering, vagrant, equiv. to L vagā(rī) to wander + -bundus adj. suffix]

—Related forms
vag‧a‧bond‧ish, adjective

—Synonyms 7. hobo, loafer. See vagrant. 8. knave, idler.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source
vag·a·bond (vg-bnd) Pronunciation Key Audio pronunciation of "Vagabond" [P]
n.

1. A person without a permanent home who moves from place to place.
2. A vagrant; a tramp.
3. A wanderer; a rover.


adj.

1. Of, relating to, or characteristic of a wanderer; nomadic.
2. Aimless; drifting.
3. Irregular in course or behavior; unpredictable.


intr.v. vag·a·bond·ed, vag·a·bond·ing, vag·a·bonds

To lead the life of a vagabond; roam about.



[Middle English vagabonde, from Old French vagabond, from Late Latin vagbundus, wandering, from Latin vagr, to wander, from vagus, wandering.]vaga·bondage n.
vaga·bondism n.

(Download Now or Buy the Book)
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
WordNet - Cite This Source

Vagabond

adj 1: wandering aimlessly without ties to a place or community; "led a vagabond life"; "a rootless wanderer" [syn: rootless] 2: continually changing especially as from one abode or occupation to another; "a drifting double-dealer"; "the floating population"; "vagrant hippies of the sixties" [syn: aimless, drifting, floating, vagrant] n 1: anything that resembles a vagabond in having no fixed place; "pirate ships were vagabonds of the sea" 2: a wanderer who has no established residence or visible means of support [syn: vagrant, drifter, floater] v : move about aimlessly or without any destination, often in search of food or employment; "The gypsies roamed the woods"; "roving vagabonds"; "the wandering Jew"; "The cattle roam across the prairie"; "the laborers drift from one town to the next"; "They rolled from town to town" [syn: roll, wander, swan, stray, tramp, roam, cast, ramble, rove, range, drift]
WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University
Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary - Cite This Source

Vagabond

from Lat. vagabundus, "a wanderer," "a fugitive;" not used opprobriously (Gen.
4:12, R.V., "wanderer;" Ps. 109:10; Acts 19:13, R.V., "strolling").
Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary



Sorry guy, but one who claims to be a vagabond has no say, find a home, settle in and then speak your mind until then your point is null and void to this American!

Justmytype