Homesexuallity DNA'ed or a choice?

This is an interesting article I found today. It discusses homosexuality being present in hundreds of animal species. ( A lot of nice pics for animal lovers )

Many say it is a choice. Many say that is obsurd and insist its DNA'ed.

This article sure makes one ponder the issue of Choice vs. DNA.

www.msnbc.msn.com...

I could be wrong, but, I think they're over analyzing it. For instance, just because two male swans raise a baby doesn't mean they're gay for each other. It's like a brother (or Uncle, or grandfather, oh heack or male figure) and a Father raising the son. That doesn't mean they're gay. Until they come up with a way to actually translate what animals are REALLY saying, I'll don't just take biology at face value. I mean come on, monkey's sniff they're own fingers after they scratch their behinds, is that gay? Well I guess you could argue that but, like I said, they are animals, we can only make assumptions, about their true behavior. As for being in the DNA of humans, I had this conversation with a Psychologist and a Therapist (I know not experts in DNA) and they both concluded that from their research they saw conclusively, that homosexuality was in some way a mental disorder, not a genetic defect. Homosexuality, is not a new thing, Romans did it, Sodom and Gomorrah anyone? (come on Sodomy... think about it, it was named for something.) So being that old, if it was DNA, and DNA needs to be passed on, wouldn't there be no homosexuality anymore?

All I can truly say about homosexuality being genetic is this: it sure isn't heredity.

I think it may be a combination of heredity and environment. Someone may have strong tendencies for either male or female qualities and the environment they're raised in may have alot to do with "bringing it out".

Events that happen to people when they're young can affect them, how they're treated growing up, parental influences...all of this plus their "natural" tendencies probably have a lot to do with it.


So I think it is DNA, environment, and then choice.



[edit on 17-11-2006 by elaine]

VERY well said elaine, because humans posses free-will and the ability to reason and say 'no'. Thats choice.

They have tremendous tendencies to be with the opposite sex no matter how bady they want to 'just be normal': Thats DNA'ed

The healthy abiity to come to your family and tell them... thats a product of your heathy environment growing up. Thats environmental

Men HATE to here this research because should they produce a gay son, will that out them? No, just say his mother has a lot of testosterone... youre ego will mend eventually

Awesome way of putting it elaine, you little open-minded cutie-pie!

This has been discussed many times here already.


The latest information on homosexuality is that some people are born that way and some are 'created' that way by social and environmental influences.

Did you know that women who were pregnant during the blitz in London during WWII had a much higher rate of homosexual children than mothers who were pregnant during calmer periods of time? Stressed moms in pregnancy have higher rates of homosexual children.

Did you know that women who got pregnant while taking diet pills have a higher rate of lesbian daughters then women who got pregnant while not taking the pills?

There are many things that influence humans to be homosexual. Some are biological and some are social. This has been discussed many times here.

Did you know that some very dainty ladies have a much higher testosterone level. Studies show that among guy men, many of those mother's have much higher testosterone.

That could too be a factor. Would make a lot more sense than other 'things discussed here' did.

IMHO most people confuse homosexual activity as reproductive activity which it is not. While there may be biological components which leads a person to engage in homosexual acts, it serves no true biological reproductive purpose. Since it doesn't serve reproduction of the species, is it really sexual activity or merely social activity?

Only because of the fact it is now 'somewhat/how trendy' these days... I am forced to look at it as a social activity for a bit. Never considered it this way. Thanks for the enlightenment on the issue.

Thank you for your input !

Forgetting about homosexual behavior in animals, because as someone said before, how do we know what they are really doing - I can't see why anyone would CHOOSE to deal with (at least in the US) being hated by their religion, their family, their community leaders, being forced in some cases out of their homes, dealing with all the things they deal with.... it's not something anyone would choose, I think.

Originally posted by ccorces1
Forgetting about homosexual behavior in animals, because as someone said before, how do we know what they are really doing - I can't see why anyone would CHOOSE to deal with (at least in the US) being hated by their religion, their family, their community leaders, being forced in some cases out of their homes, dealing with all the things they deal with.... it's not something anyone would choose, I think.

Because you don't choose it, you are who you are and you have to learn to accept that and learn to deal with people's natural ignorance and intolerance. There are, however, plenty of people that don't have a problem with someone being gay, those are the people and organizations you should associate yourself with if you happen to be gay. If someone can't accept you for who you are then to hell with them.

Not to sound ignorant but couldnt this all just be about "sex" and have nothing to do with either DNA or Environmental attributes. We all are human and "sex" is pleasure, so if one was to venture into engaing into having sex with someone of thier own sex and enjoy it versus having sex with someone of the opposite, does this entitle them to be gay or bisexual because of thier act or is this just the stigma we all place on those who venture into that realm.

Just a thought!

The latest scientific studies show that only half of male homosexuals were born that way.
The rest were sucked into it!

Seriously though, as a former homosexual myself I think I have a relevant perspective on the subject. First of all, everything we are is part genetic, and part learned, or a product of environment. I was exposed to sexual images and behaviors at way too early (pre-pubescent) an age, and as a result grew up open to just about everything. Also, a lack of attention, affection and approval from my father naturally led me to seek these things in other males. In the pubescent years this often leads to the developing sexually related emotions being directed towards the same sex, and this was the case with me. People of a different genetic make up however, may have a completely different reaction to these same circumstances. They may become hostile towards the same sex instead of seeking to meet their needs through them for example. Hopefully, they learn to deal with such matters at an early age and overcome them, and many do. It took me 25 years to realize I was seeking my fathers love in the random penis.

There is also the matter of simple sexual gratification that was brought up earlier in the thread to address. I have found it true that many males, who are very much motivated by sex, will engage in homosexual behavior simply to gratify themselves, and don't mind reciprocating, though it is simply a matter of expedience with them, and not one of emotion. Having messed around with many such, I have found that many go to great pains(no pun intended) to make sure they do not become emotionally involved. I think we all know of the high school or college case of the guy who becomes suicidal because his lover, who was just having fun, has moved on. There's also the other side of this equation, the case of the guy who is very much attracted to other men, but chooses the straight life with a wife and kids and hooks up with guys in the park or a bath house where he can stay anonymous and not endager his secret. There are also many men who simply become addicted to the easy and responsibility free sex, and so decide to live a gay lifestyle, though they have never been 'in love' with another man.

In conclusion, it seem obvious to me that genetics, experiences and societal pressures all play a role in sexual behavior. Who you have sex with is obviously a choice and it is ignorant to say otherwise. Who you are attracted to is just as obviously not a choice, and is the product of countless influences and factors. What is important is how you choose to deal with your attractions and making sure you remain in control of them. Many of my gay friends believe that they can't be happy unless they're haveing sex with other men; I've found that happiness in and of yourself must come first, then you can bring that happiness into a relationship if you choose to.

As others have alluded, it doesn't have to be just either DNA or choice, but sometimes it's something within a person's environment. Recent studies have shown that the more older brothers a boy has, the higher the likelyhood there is of his homosexuality. From that, I would bet that something happens to these boys in the womb to cause this.

Also, even if there is a genetic component to homosexuality, that doesn't mean it will die out. Perhaps homosexuals help care for the children of their siblings, so it might stick around as a recessive gene. Since those children would have more caretakers than children without gay aunts and uncles, they would then be more likely to grow up, reproduce, and pass on that very beneficial gene.

Originally posted by supercheetah
As others have alluded, it doesn't have to be just either DNA or choice, but sometimes it's something within a person's environment. Recent studies have shown that the more older brothers a boy has, the higher the likelyhood there is of his homosexuality. From that, I would bet that something happens to these boys in the womb to cause this.

Also, even if there is a genetic component to homosexuality, that doesn't mean it will die out. Perhaps homosexuals help care for the children of their siblings, so it might stick around as a recessive gene. Since those children would have more caretakers than children without gay aunts and uncles, they would then be more likely to grow up, reproduce, and pass on that very beneficial gene.

I've read the study you refer to here and I find it interesting that it is somewhat assumed that what's going on here happens in the womb. I find it much more likely that what happens to the younger brother is experiential. Having been a younger brother, I can tell you that having more older brothers increases the chance that you will be introduced to sexual behaviors by one of them. I wonder why this possiblility wasn't even considered in the study?

My response is based on the concept of reincarnation. I've read that sometimes a person who lives many lifetimes as one gender, and then has to change genders for another incarnation may become 'sexually confused' without understanding why and feeling that they have no choice or control over it.

Originally posted by annestacey
My response is based on the concept of reincarnation. I've read that sometimes a person who lives many lifetimes as one gender, and then has to change genders for another incarnation may become 'sexually confused' without understanding why and feeling that they have no choice or control over it.

Of course, that doesn't explain the biological component of homosexuality.

homosexuality if found naturally amon the bonobo chmips and seems to help the family stay together. I think there's a certain amount of homosexuality built into these creatures to expand the family and increase involvement

Originally posted by djohnsto77
homosexuality if found naturally amon the bonobo chmips and seems to help the family stay together. I think there's a certain amount of homosexuality built into these creatures to expand the family and increase involvement

I would tend to agree with your opinion here, but I would also point out that while homosexual behavior has been seen in many species, only in man has the complete rejection of the opposite sex, to the extent of precluding reproduction, been observed. To me, this type of total rejection of the opposite sex seems to indicate a psycological root. There may be species in which some males never get to reproduce, but it's not for lack of trying. I have never heard of a species in which females reject reproduction.

Originally posted by resistor

Originally posted by djohnsto77
homosexuality if found naturally amon the bonobo chmips and seems to help the family stay together. I think there's a certain amount of homosexuality built into these creatures to expand the family and increase involvement

I would tend to agree with your opinion here, but I would also point out that while homosexual behavior has been seen in many species, only in man has the complete rejection of the opposite sex, to the extent of precluding reproduction, been observed. To me, this type of total rejection of the opposite sex seems to indicate a psycological root. There may be species in which some males never get to reproduce, but it's not for lack of trying. I have never heard of a species in which females reject reproduction.

We're also one of the very few mostly monogamous species as well.

In many of the more liberal, accepting groups I've hung around, sexual orientation is seen more as a gradient of bisexualism (most lean heavily towards heterosexuality, most of the rest heavily towards homosexuality, and a small minority quite in the middle).

In other words, I think that when society becomes more accepting of gays and lesbians, people will start to see sexuality as a gradient of bisexuality. I do.

I think that in our polarized political culture, people feel the need to go to one extreme or the other to make their point.

[edit on 1/6/2007 by supercheetah]

[edit on 1/6/2007 by supercheetah]

Ok, I suppose I'll add my perspective to the subject.

It is my opinion that there is no such thing as homosexuality or heterosexuality.

All people are bisexual, though obviously there are differences
between preference for everyone.

Person A may prefer the opposite sex, person B the same sex,
now, even though both of them prefer one sex over the other,
does not mean that they are completely exclusive to that gender.

I'll use myself as an example.

I am male, I prefer males sexually and emotionally, however, I
have found a few females attractive before, and can more easily
open up to women emotionally.


So, going by that I figure that there may be some genetics that
could make us more likely to prefer one sex predominantly over
the other, but I also believe that most of those are triggered by
environmental factors, and that the ones that are'nt, are'nt really
powerful enough to make us choose one gender over the other.

So, in a more simple answer, you may have the gene(s) that is
associated with liking the same sex, but just because you have it,
does'nt mean you're going to like the same sex.