UK Physicians Propose Euthanasia of Newborns

Originally posted by half_minded
Its easier to kill a baby when its born since you are not attached to it yet. If you raise the child for couple of years and then get the urge of killing it, u cannot because then u would go to jail.

So parents are given a choice at the time of birth, because not every person is strong/passionate/patient/kind enough to raise a disabled child. Financial stability also comes into question. So, its easier to get 'rid of the problem' before it can grow up and then its too late to 'cure' it.

prevention is better than cure! literally.

Just because something is easier does not make it right. The strength, passion,patience or kindness of a prospective parent should have no bearing on whether a child should be allowed to live. Financial stability is also a non-issue compared to the life of a child or anyone else. Also, when people start looking at unwanted or disabled children as "the problem" it becomes easier and easier to seperate themselves from the humanity of the "problem" we are getting rid of. I might also add that your statement that, "prevention is better than cure" is particularly loathsome.

[edit on 11/7/2006 by Stormrider]

To all at ATS.

Please listen to me, as I have spent my life this year in such a quagmire. In feb my wife and I found out we were prego with triplets (spontaneous) odds of about 80000 to 1 without any fertility treatment. The pregnancy went well until her 23rd week when she had a bleed. We went to the hospital and were sent home with the new knowledge that our A son Asher had a low lying placenta. On June 6th she was hospitalized again, she spent a week in an almost torturous state on all sorts of drugs to calm her contractions. She would have stood on her head if it would have kept those babies in longer. She held on for 7 days, and at 6pm we lost control. The doctors gave me the ultimatum of take them now with a 1 in 8ths chance of having 1 normal child or let them stay and most likely lose them and my wife.

At 9:56, 9:57 & 9:58 my three son's were born at 25 weeks and 6 days Asher, Brady & Cooper. I spent the next 3 months by their side and gradually lost two of my sons over a three week period. But I can tell you each of my boys had their own personality. Cooper was strong, he survived PIE(emphasima), a heart surgery, a paralyzed diahphram, two brain surgeries due to his hydrocephelus and ventricle bleeding. As well as countless days of needles and torture to bring him to health. My little man is 5 months old and 11 lbs now he has been home for almost 2 months.

I guess my moral to you all is. I had the worst year of my life and endure by their side every moment; but I wouldn't take it away, because on fathers day 2006 I was the proud father of 4 little boys. They gave me something I will never loose that has made me a better man to this day. I know my son is disabled, but he is by no means disposable.

Bandit

Originally posted by half_minded
I am sure lot of people under this situation would be thankful that they have options.

Pregnant by 'mistake' girls are thankful to abortion. Parents with disabled babies will be thankful for options because not everyone can deal with such situations esp. when financial problems are a concern.

Are you kidding me? Have you ever been a parent? Obviously not because if you had you would know that mothers and fathers of newborn babies, at least the majority of them, usually are not thinking about ending thier new son's/daugter's life. It's called "love", a concept you may be unfamilliar with. As for "pregnant by mistake girls", I am sure they are thankful for the option of having an abortion; what I am not so sure of is the childs POV in the situation. Why shouldn't their right to be born and live a full life be considered?

I bet all of you condemning this 'option' would be singing a different tone if you were born with babies with life long disabilities or problems. Knowing full well that your baby would never have anormal life and you would end up taking care of it all its life.

As the father of a child born with disabilities, I think I am safe in saying you are wrong. AS the friend of several families with disabled children (severe cerebral palsy, developmental disabilities, etc) I can tell you that these parents do not love their children any less because of their disabilities. I also worked for several years as the manager of a gruop home for developmentally disabled adults ( what used to be referred to as mentally retarded) and I can tell you that these people were wonderful human beings and though not as intellectually bright as you or I, they still had a lot to offer in the way of love, compassion and joy of life. I am a better person for having known them and could not imagine the world without them.

People eat meat all around the world. In china, people eat dogs. But they wont cook and eat their own dogs because they are attached to it, but its easy for them to kill a dog that no one cares about and eat it. Obviously, someone could step forward and buy a dog and save it from getting cooked.

This analogy is so disgusting that I won't even dignify it with a response.

So why dont people who 'care so much' step forward and offer to raise the babies of unfortunate parents instead of forcing the parents to raise them? you see the point.

that is why i said, i can bet people would be singing a diferent tone if ...........

If you had bothered to do a little research before posting in this thread, you would know that there are thousands of couples in this country alone wanting to adopt a newborn; the problem is that there are not enough available because of the prevalence of abortions being done. If only the "accidentally pregnant" women in this country considered this fact before ending their child's life!

Bandit:

I thank you so much for your post; I know exactly what you are talking about and wish you, yoour wife and your son Cooper a long happy life.

Storm

Originally posted by banditboo13

I know my son is disabled, but he is by no means disposable.

Bandit

Can't see. Can't type. Tears.

Thank you.

May many more come to your truth.


.

Thank you all,

I wouldnt take away a moment of this year.

I appreciate the insightful conversation that we have here, so much. It's amazing how lacking intelligent conversation is in our normal B2B day to day lives.

Thanks for having me ATS
Bandit

Originally posted by banditboo13
I know my son is disabled, but he is by no means disposable.

Bandit

Bandit,

Thank you and bless you! That has to be the most heart warming and loving thing I've heard from a father! I truely admire you for being such a wonderful parent.

Very Few people truely appeciate what a gift their children are. A child with special needs is no exception. I work with special needs children, and they are some of the most loving people you will ever meet in this world. Hearing how much Cooper means to you really lifts my spirits! Thanks for speaking up for your son, and the countless other like him who so many people ignorantly look down on!

As someone with CP, and as someone dedicated to helping children who have special needs, I can't thank you enough for what you said! Too many people forget that people with disabilities can contribute to our world greatly. Once people learn to value the gift of life (in all it's forms) we will all take a great leap towards enlightenment! I hope everyone here can be inspired by the love you have for your son!

I'm very stingy with Way Above Top Secret Award, but Bandit really earned one with that post! Folks, that's what it really means to Deny Ignorance.

Tim

Originally posted by banditboo13
Thank you all,

I wouldnt take away a moment of this year.

I appreciate the insightful conversation that we have here, so much. It's amazing how lacking intelligent conversation is in our normal B2B day to day lives.

Thanks for having me ATS
Bandit

sorry for posting the whole thing but this guy has changed my opinions

ive always generally been for the weeding out of the species - not in a big way, please understand - mainly in a theoretical way (probably because i dont actually know anyone with a serious disability i admit)

reading bandits post has to me shown the actual reality of the situation & left me feeling everyone no matter how fecked up has a part to play, even if that part is only to enrich those around them.

good luck with your son bandit

[edit on 7-11-2006 by Capt DogToffee]

[edit on 7-11-2006 by Capt DogToffee]

look whats the difference between a birth control pill and an abortion, your still getting rid of an egg that would have become a child. I mean honestly, it has nothing to do with murder, because whos to say those babies that never become because of birthcontrol wouldnt be great normal children too? Whos to say they aren't worthy enough? Well I say its because it has nothing to do with worthiness, it has to do with a parents choice.

If a person can choose to take a birth control pill, I dont see why they cant have an abortion. your still playing god, whether its 3 days in or 3 weeks in or 3 months in, your still doing the same thing.

Would I ever abort a child? No, even if it were disabled, unless it has the worst of diablilities, I wouldn't bother to even consider it. Does that mean I have any right to tell anybody else that? No. Unless I want to adopt the child they want to get rid of, I have no say in THEIR personal choice.

Another thing I dont get is why death is treated like the worst most horrible thing ever. first off, when its my time to die, I will go happily because its a part of life. If I get some disease that will kill me, fine, I am ok with that. Not because Im crazy or stupid, but because I understand that we all cant live forever and that we werent suppose to. Maybe when we get off of this planet it can be different, but death is a vital part to the chain of life so long as we are stuck on this rock.

O and I WATS bandicoot for what hes done because I think that it was good he went through with it and tried to do what he could. Im not saying hes right or wrong, just that I think its good to see that some people have the ability to do such things.

Originally posted by grimreaper797
look whats the difference between a birth control pill and an abortion, your still getting rid of an egg that would have become a child. I mean honestly, it has nothing to do with murder, because whos to say those babies that never become because of birthcontrol wouldnt be great normal children too? Whos to say they aren't worthy enough? Well I say its because it has nothing to do with worthiness, it has to do with a parents choice.

hi mate: i dont think the arguments about abortion, its about killing babies once they are born.

sorry if im wrong its just the way ive taken it

[edit on 7-11-2006 by Capt DogToffee]

Im talking morally. They say its morally wrong because its murder, but truth is, its all murder when it comes down to it. Your just killing what isnt living yet, so why is one legal and the other isnt? Because of how far along its come?

anybody here remember the first year of their life outside of the womb? No? well its because your brain isnt developed nearly enough yet to do so. Whats the difference between killing something at day 1, at day 30 or day 365?

Whos to say that aborted child wouldn't have died anyway? I mean if the only reason this is questionable is morality, I dont think we have much to argue here.

Now I would rather focus on the medical/political aspect. Is this child able to survive on its own (given it has the sources to such as food and such)? If there is nothing wrong with it at birth, there is absolutely no excuse as to why it cant medically stay alive. Politically, once that child has its birth certificate and citizenship, its entitled to whatever right anybody else is entitled to. That includes life. So at birth, if it has that certificate, then its entitled to the same rights as every other individual and its no longer the parents choice if it wants to get rid of it.

I would say if at the time of birth it comes out with a severe defect and the parents choose to not have it, then thats the only acceptable time where it can happen. As soon as the papers are signed that child is a citizen, then its protected with rights.

so Id say at the time of birth if its severely defective and would be incapable to survive at any point of its life by itself, then it should probably be aborted. If that child cannot survive by itself at all in life then nature is saying it wasnt fit to live, and we shouldnt go challanging that because we feel morally bad about letting the child die.

Originally posted by grimreaper797

anybody here remember the first year of their life outside of the womb?

No I don't grim, but I remember both of my babies first few hours and months of life, looking up at me and smilings, alert and so aware and responsive to me. Then I remember the big slobbering kisses they would give me while they smiled looking up at me....they were completely "In Love With Me" and I with them. Those are the things I think of

Originally posted by jensouth31
No I don't grim, but I remember both of my babies first few hours and months of life, looking up at me and smilings, alert and so aware and responsive to me. Then I remember the big slobbering kisses they would give me while they smiled looking up at me....they were completely "In Love With Me" and I with them. Those are the things I think of

yes but thats a parental thing. As far as the child goes, its hardly "aware" of its own existance. No more then most organisms at that point at least. The reason its so much more wrong to kill a person is because they are so much more aware, not to mention our own species.

But the fact is, that child is not aware of its own wants, its acting out of instinct built into itself is what I mean. If the parents dont want to get rid of the child because of the connection, obviously we wouldnt dare try to say otherwise. On the other hand if the parents dont want a severely disabled child we try to put it into our heads that this child would say otherwise and has thoughts like you and me.

truth is these young babies dont "think" in the terms we would like to believe. Its kind of like when people try to understand a pet. They get this connection to it and start to think that it actually has the complexity of people. Now although it is a complex animal, it isn't thinking "what should I do today" because its not that aware. It doesn't think of outside its own immediate area or ahead of time, other then the instincts that drive them to automatically make actions to ensure their survival.

what I am saying in short is that the baby isn't as aware as we want to believe it is. It has no concept of time or the world around it, its just acting on instincts.

I am in no way going to tell you that your connection isnt real, just that these babies aren't as aware as we want to believe, simply because its mind isnt developed enough yet. That also doesnt justify killing it whatsoever. Just keep in mind that if a child is never going to develop that sense of awareness, like some sort of brain damage might effect, its in for a very hard life.

to clarify in case some jump to conclusions to what I am trying to get at.

The baby isnt aware like we think it is. Now that is no excuse to kill a child, because every child has that at first. The point Im making is what if it were stuck in that state indefinately and the parents dont want to deal with that?

Originally posted by grimreaper797

yes but thats a parental thing. As far as the child goes, its hardly "aware" of its own existance. No more then most organisms at that point at least. The reason its so much more wrong to kill a person is because they are so much more aware, not to mention our own species.

But the fact is, that child is not aware of its own wants

Not trying to argue with you buddy, but they are aware grim! Ask any parent. They respond to loud noises by turning their heads to look in the direction of the noise. They study your face and mimick you. They are living breathing human beings in a world that all new to them, and they have to learn, how to crawl & walk, talk. They are intelligent little human beings, & very fast learners. It seems like you just blink your eye and they are 6 years old already, then 10, then 16 & so on.

My daughter did a report on abortion once for school. She did tons of research and went to a pro life clinic and so on. They showed her pictures of babies in utero while being aborted, and those babies feel the pain. You can see their little faces on these films. It's horrible. I just don't understand how people can say they are nothing but a little vegetable, when they are so real. They even respond to you while they are in the womb...for instance, like when music is playing...they respond to that.

Originally posted by jensouth31

Not trying to argue with you buddy, but they are aware grim! Ask any parent. They respond to loud noises by turning their heads to look in the direction of the noise. They study your face and mimick you. They are living breathing human beings in a world that all new to them, and they have to learn, how to crawl & walk, talk. They are intelligent little human beings, & very fast learners. It seems like you just blink your eye and they are 6 years old already, then 10, then 16 & so on.

My daughter did a report on abortion once for school. She did tons of research and went to a pro life clinic and so on. They showed her pictures of babies in utero while being aborted, and those babies feel the pain. You can see their little faces on these films. It's horrible. I just don't understand how people can say they are nothing but a little vegetable, when they are so real. They even respond to you while they are in the womb...for instance, like when music is playing...they respond to that.

you misunderstood me. Aware does not mean they dont physically feel. They physically feel pain as much as any other organism does. when I say aware I mean consciously. They aren't thinking "hmm what is that person thinking?" they simply dont have that train of thought process yet. As they get older and grow they do, and they do grow fast. My question is what if the child was brain damaged and never did grow mentally? Never develops that train of thought? Sure it still feels pain, and it still has instincts but its not aware. Sure its alive, but aware? No. A response does not directly indicate a conscious mind, it indicates life. Im not denying they are alive, simply they aren't aware in the sense "Im dying".

Animals feel pain and such, but that doesnt mean they are aware in the sense we are.

grim: i fully agree with where your coming from but after reading some of these posts i do think its the parents choice about these kids

i think the real problem is the idiots who have kids & dont want them

remember most of the parents with disabled kids dont care what the kid is like they will love them anyway - thats got to be better than a healthy unloved kid

btw im not a parent so what do i know

Like I said, if the parent wants the kid, we are nobody to tell them otherwise.

This is the kind of stuff that disgusts me, What ever happened to the dignity of the human being?