Israel Stealing Palestinian Tax Revenues & Palestine Near Economic Collapse

Quintar, thank you. Pieman, you raise an engaging point but I disagree with you. I think it is imperative that you look at the situation within its proper historical context.

First of all, while it is all well and good that Hamas abided by a ceasefire, it was merely an irrelevant political maneuver. When they stopped launching Qassams from Gaza and declared a ceasefire, new, previously unheard of splinter groups of fatah or Islamic Jihad began claiming responsibility for the ongoing barrage. Hamas certainly didn't call for peace or take actions to prevent any attacks. Additionally, Hamas spent time and money developing new, more powerful Qassams, recently firing a two stage prototype into Israel which boasts a much improved range. So, from the Israeli perspective, nothing positive came from this "ceasefire."

The Israelis began demonizing Hamas even before they had a chance to take office and to begin enforcing their own domestic policies. I don't see why it is so important that Israel have this immediate policy of "recognition" when the Palestinians themselves were never even given time to establish themselves as a state.

You say this as though Hamas were an unknown political group before their recent win. I mean, "the Israelis demonized Hamas?" Hamas is a terrorist organization who have claimed responsibility for the deaths of hundreds of Israeli civilians and thousands of wounded. They admittedly disagreed with the key principles of the Oslo Accord (peace with Israel), actively worked to derail it and have since rejected the Roadmap and say they will not entertain any other movements or treaties until Israel meets all of their demands.

The importance of "recognition" is not an academic argument. Hamas is not merely "resisting" Israeli occupation in the hopes of forcing a resolution or independant Palestinian state. They are AGAINST the peace process and insist that the conflict can only be resolved by the destruction of Israel. Additionally they are actively involved in attacking Israeli civilians even within the '67 borders.

Please understand. Israel is attempting to hamstring Hamas, NOT the Palestinian people. Their previous attempts at extending the olive branch have thus far been frustrated, but they serve to inform us of an Israeli desire to make peace, even at a cost to themselves. For example...

When Olso was signed, Israel disengaged from the west bank and gaza, helped elections take place, began collecting and depositing tax revenue to the PA and opened up all borders to take advantage of employment opportunities they created in Israel for the Palestinians. They were rewarded with a huge surge in terrorist attacks and consequently re-occupied the territories.

Despite the Al-Aqsa intifada raging, Israel unilaterally evacuated Gaza at great political cost. They left behind a gardening infrastructure and synogauges. Ignoring their agreement to the contrary the synogauges were razed. Despite the importance of the greenhouses to the Palestinian economy, no guards were posted and they were stripped for the copper and tubing and such they contained. Meanwhile, Qassam attacks launched from Gaza increased.

At camp David, Barak famously offered Arafat a very good chance for peace and over 90% of the territories for a new state. Arafat not only refused, he made no counter offer aside from the new intifada. He was reapproached 6 months later and offered an even better deal in Taba. Arafat again refused.

My point here is that the Israelis are becoming exhausted. Every attempt to soften the occupation in hopes of peace was met with renewed violence. They cannot force Hamas to accept a peace deal, they can't strongarm them into wanting one. The first step is for both sides to agree that they want peace. It took forever to get Arafat to agree to that. And all it takes is a new government to take over, and they are back to square one. What options do the Israelis have?

Shakimaan,

That is the smartest set of posts I have seen here in a long time!

A++++++

For once the truth was spoken without spin on the blame and fault.

I would support the Palestinian cause in a heart beat if they chose a path of peace like India, MLK in America, or the class in which South African handled the end aparthied when the majority came to power.

If the peace was chosen over the gun by the Palestinians the whole world would back them. I am still hopeful it will happen sometime.




But back to reality on this board. Lets start the blame game again.

[edit on 6-11-2006 by sbob]

Originally posted by pavil

Respectfully, when will it be time for the Palestinians to stand on their own feet? If they have fallen down, when does it become time for them to ask for and offer their own hand up looking for a hand in return. Why is it always the World's and Israel's responsibility to help them, can't they ever take steps to help themselves? They had a chance to disarm all the militia's and they chose not to.

Pavil
Please are you talking to a schoolkid here who is not aware of history?If it wasn't for America helping Israel for the past almost 50 years where would Israel be? I don't see Israel turning down ANY aid whatsoever. They confiscated land without ever paying any fees,rent or compensation to the previous owners. Its the LEAST they could possibly do.
Even when Palestinian-Americans that have successful businesses in the US and they want to return to Palestine and invest in the territories they are refused entrance for just that reason.
So for you to imply that Palestinians should stand on their own 2 feet as though Israel has done it all on their own is ridiculous. Palestine of course will need help.

Do you think the world would think less of the Palestinians if they were to actually pursure a policy of peace rather than one of violent confrontation. Why can't Hamas agree to recognize Israel's right to exist and also honor all previous agreements between Israel and the Palestininans? As I said before someone is going to have to make the first move toward peace again.

As I and many others have said...Israel has done a lot of wrong to these people. They have massacred them, they have shamed them internationally, they have demonised them internationally, they have taken their land , their birthright and have put them through hell. Israel to this day denies any of the above! I think peace and rebuilding should be the first thing to come and then admission and recognition later when there is more trust.

Originally posted by Shaktimaan
Quintar, thank you. Pieman, you raise an engaging point but I disagree with you. I think it is imperative that you look at the situation within its proper historical context.

This is all great but you know what..You stated that you were Pro-Palestinian in a previous message and in actuality you are not. If you are honest you would just come out and say you are Pro-Israeli instead. There is no need to lie about it and act as though you are concerned for Palestinians when your concern is obviously for Israel. Why subtrefuge and wordplay? This is exactly why there is no peace in Israel, they make claims they are all for the Palestinians on one side of their mouth but the other side of their mouth says something else.
I think you meant to say you are Pro-Palestinian as long as they abide by the rules, and those rules are made by Israel and for Israel without Palestinian consideration.


Edit to add:
In 1948 even though using tactics which by todays standards would be considered terrorism, Israel , Its government and its people were still considered legitimate even though they had done many wrongdoings to the British people in Palestine. They were still given a chance. So please when you talk about Hamas, at least know the origins of the Isreli government before you try to make Israel appear as though they stand on higher moral ground compared to Hamas.








[edit on 7-11-2006 by ThePieMaN]

Originally posted by ThePieMaN
So for you to imply that Palestinians should stand on their own 2 feet as though Israel has done it all on their own is ridiculous. Palestine of course will need help.

Pieman, what has the PA done with the Billions in aid it has received? For the most part it has been squandered through the ineptness of the Palestinian Government. Yes I know Israel has done a fair share of destroying infrastructure, but where is the accountability of the PA in all of this? At least when Israel is given non-military aid they have used it fairly well for the most part, can the same be said for the PA? I know Israel makes it tough on the Palestinians in most respects, but you have got to admit that the Palestinians themselves have done a poor job with the aid they have received.

I know this sounds as bashing the Palestinians, I want them to have their own country, however it needs to peacefully coexist with it's neighbors as well as be able to run it's government like a real government. So far they leave much to be desired in both respects IMO. Blaming only the Israel is only blaming half the problem.

I guess we will agree to disagree.

Originally posted by pavil
Pieman, what has the PA done with the Billions in aid it has received? For the most part it has been squandered through the ineptness of the Palestinian Government. Yes I know Israel has done a fair share of destroying infrastructure, but where is the accountability of the PA in all of this? At least when Israel is given non-military aid they have used it fairly well for the most part, can the same be said for the PA? I know Israel makes it tough on the Palestinians in most respects, but you have got to admit that the Palestinians themselves have done a poor job with the aid they have received.

Pavil
I'd like to ask you where you get figures of BILLIONS from? Since the Oslo accords (1993) they have only recieved a total of 1.8billion and that was channeled through contractors who probably took nice little tidy sums to administrate with PLUS there are restrictions on how it is to be used, the PA cannot access the majority of that money. Theres no billions. Maybe you are thinking of Israel when we are talking in the Billions, but not Palestine


Pie

Originally posted by ThePieMaN
Pavil
I'd like to ask you where you get figures of BILLIONS from? Since the Oslo accords (1993) they have only received a total of 1.8billion and that was channeled through contractors who probably took nice little tidy sums to administrate with PLUS there are restrictions on how it is to be used, the PA cannot access the majority of that money. There's no billions. Maybe you are thinking of Israel when we are talking in the Billions, but not Palestine
Pie

Got to be brief as I have people to see.

US aid alone has been at least 1.7 Billion as documented here since 1993.

www.usaid.gov...


here is about 700M US in one year from the EU.
www.guardian.co.uk...

Last year, 2005 the aid total for the year was about 1.1 Billion according to this report. www.csmonitor.com...

Here's an old one showing that aid has been an issue for awhile
news.bbc.co.uk...


There has been aid from other countries and organizations as well but I don't have the Patience to list them all.

You prove that it has been the number you state. I stand by my assertion of Billions of aid.



For added measure here are two links to back up my claims of Mismanagement of funds, which you have left out in your response. Didn't have time to research the links the way I wanted. There was a good thing on NPR but I can't find it now.


www.meforum.org..." target="_blank" class="postlink">www.meforum.org...

[url=http://www.globalpolicy.org/nations/launder/regions/2003/1109swiss.htm]http://www.globalpolicy.org/nations/launder/regions/2003/1109swiss.htm[/ur l]

[edit on 8-11-2006 by pavil]

This is all great but you know what..You stated that you were Pro-Palestinian in a previous message and in actuality you are not. If you are honest you would just come out and say you are Pro-Israeli instead.

Pieman, you are right, I am pro-Israeli. But you are wrong in saying that I am not also pro-Palestinian. I find it incredibly depressing that you find these two things to be mutually exclusive.

This is not a game where you are supposed to pick a side that you most identify with and then justify their every crime while smearing the other side as much as possible. As I stated before, neither side of this conflict is free from guilt, neither side is fully justified to commit the crimes they have however neither side is undeserving of justice or peace or the right of self-determination. If there is to be a solution it will require people to see beyond their own immediate needs and consider the welfare of the greater good. It will require being both pro-Israeli AND pro-Palestinian.

On that note I'd like to state that you do not appear to truly be pro-palestinian as much as you are anti-Israeli. There is no rule that says that because you support a group's goals that you must justify their every decision or refrain from ever criticising them. Think about this, Hamas has repeatedly gone on record as saying that they REJECT the peace process and will never consider making peace until Israel is gone. Do you feel that having this group as the Palestinian's global representative is going to further their interests? Since they have taken power a civil war has broken out in Gaza. Life there is far worse for the average person than it was before the Israelis left. Hamas has abused a golden opportunity, spurned any assistance the global community has offered and wreaked havok on their own citizens. What is happening in Gaza is not about Israel, Pieman. Make no mistake. It is about seizing power at any cost. It is about dismantling the fragile democratic structure to cement their place in government. Do you truly believe that Hamas has the best interests of Palestine at heart? Do you think that unconditional support of any government or group is beneficial in the long run?

I believe in the viability of a future Palestinian state. I believe they need and deserve the right of self determination. I am not against the Palestinians. I am against opportunists within the Palestinian entity that would use this dream to realize their own selfish desires. My support is not unconditional. But it does not come with unfair conditions either. First and foremost I think that the desire to make peace and a willingness to respect the other side's right to exist should be mandatory. I am against funding any government that wants to use those funds to destroy the other. I don't think that is asking too much.

Remember also that even Saudi Arabia cut off funding to the PA in the early 90's because the Palestinians supported Saddam Hussein in the Gulf War. Do you think that Saudi Arabia should continue sending them food aid even when the PA sends troops to fight against them? A friend of mine was shot in the head by a Palestinian terrorist at the Empire State building in New York City. Now he was not acting with the support of the PA so I would not want the PA punished for it, but consider the insanity of attacking the country that is the 2nd largest donor of aid to your state. The US has done more to advance peace in this conflict than any other nation. Do you really think it is anti-Palestinian to criticize actions such as the empire state building attack? I do not.

The road to peace is paved with honesty and accountability. I could care less about being "right" in these stupid forum arguments. I am interested in being as objective as possible in the hopes of finding a solution. If I cast blame, it is only meant as constructive criticism, however harsh. Peace is the prize, everything else is just bupkis.

Originally posted by Shaktimaan
Pieman, you are right, I am pro-Israeli. But you are wrong in saying that I am not also pro-Palestinian. I find it incredibly depressing that you find these two things to be mutually exclusive.

This is not a game where you are supposed to pick a side that you most identify with and then justify their every crime while smearing the other side as much as possible. As I stated before, neither side of this conflict is free from guilt, neither side is fully justified to commit the crimes they have however neither side is undeserving of justice or peace or the right of self-determination. If there is to be a solution it will require people to see beyond their own immediate needs and consider the welfare of the greater good. It will require being both pro-Israeli AND pro-Palestinian.

Never said it was a game, but going by your replies you might think some of us here are children unaware of history. You mentioned Hamas government as being terroristic yet you never addressed the origins of the Israeli government and their acceptance into the International political scene that I mentioned.

On that note I'd like to state that you do not appear to truly be pro-palestinian as much as you are anti-Israeli.

Is there a reason why i should be Pro-israeli? At one time I was. The actions over the past few years changed that. I am not an evangelical Christian that I shoul support Israel wether right or wrong. I see wrongdoing and I call it as I see it.

There is no rule that says that because you support a group's goals that you must justify their every decision or refrain from ever criticising them. Think about this, Hamas has repeatedly gone on record as saying that they REJECT the peace process and will never consider making peace until Israel is gone. Do you feel that having this group as the Palestinian's global representative is going to further their interests? Since they have taken power a civil war has broken out in Gaza. Life there is far worse for the average person than it was before the Israelis left.

I can't say that I blame them, at least they are being honest ,whereas Israel likes to play the face game and to the world they say they want peace , but when nobody is looking they show their Hawkish side. They are not looking for peace. They want to push every single arab out of that country. The arabs just want to do the same thing to them.

As far as a civil war goes, yes this was a nicely planned political move on the part of the Israelis, whenever possible to create conflict from within. Deal with Abbas without Hamas and let Hamas know it publicly. Mistrust and conflict from within. Easier then killing or kidnapping them and having bad press for Israel. They did the very same thing in Lebanon with the Christians murdering all those Pals in Sabra and Shatila. If it wasn't for the fact that Syria stepped in, Israel might still be in Lebanon taking a lot more then just Shaaba farms. One thing I can say for Israel they are excellent tacticians and they use psychology to their advantage.

Hamas has abused a golden opportunity, spurned any assistance the global community has offered and wreaked havok on their own citizens. What is happening in Gaza is not about Israel, Pieman. Make no mistake. It is about seizing power at any cost. It is about dismantling the fragile democratic structure to cement their place in government. Do you truly believe that Hamas has the best interests of Palestine at heart? Do you think that unconditional support of any government or group is beneficial in the long run?

I keep hearing these terms "Golden Opportunity" and "Great Deals" etc etc, but going by what they have which is some land sprinkled with settlements, private roads and apartheid walls snaking through their land. What they need is help in making Israel abandon all the settlements on Palestinian land in the WB and gaza, place the walls on Israeli land proper and remove the barricades from within Palestinian lands. This was not imposed upon them by Hamas. This is why the people chose Hamas because they don't want these Israeli impediments forced upon the Pals. I believe Hamas has more of a want for betterment for the Pals then Israel does.

As far as unconditional support..well I believe Israel takes the prize in that field. Just look at all the attrocities they have caused, created or took part in and not one thing has been done. Thats truly uncontional support not only from within but from without as well. I think you should be asking yourself that question wether it has been to the Jews of Israel benefit to recieve such support. I think if Israel had been rebuked in the past and not rewarded with Monetary and Military aid a long time ago, the Israeli people would not be suffering so many terror attacks.

I believe in the viability of a future Palestinian state. I believe they need and deserve the right of self determination. I am not against the Palestinians. I am against opportunists within the Palestinian entity that would use this dream to realize their own selfish desires. My support is not unconditional. But it does not come with unfair conditions either. First and foremost I think that the desire to make peace and a willingness to respect the other side's right to exist should be mandatory. I am against funding any government that wants to use those funds to destroy the other. I don't think that is asking too much.

As do I. I am not against the idea of cutting funds to Palestine, but I am against the idea of continuation of funds to Israel . They both need to have any aid with the exception of humanitarian aid cut totally.

Remember also that even Saudi Arabia cut off funding to the PA in the early 90's because the Palestinians supported Saddam Hussein in the Gulf War. Do you think that Saudi Arabia should continue sending them food aid even when the PA sends troops to fight against them?

I have no clue about that and I don't even place SA in the equation when it comes to the ME.

A friend of mine was shot in the head by a Palestinian terrorist at the Empire State building in New York City. Now he was not acting with the support of the PA so I would not want the PA punished for it, but consider the insanity of attacking the country that is the 2nd largest donor of aid to your state. The US has done more to advance peace in this conflict than any other nation. Do you really think it is anti-Palestinian to criticize actions such as the empire state building attack? I do not.

Sorry for your loss. Im sure you know there are terrorists from both sides, 3 days ago some 15 Jewish terrorists attacked a young pakistani muslim man with brass knuckles and almost beat him to death whilst calling HIM the terrorist, here in Brooklyn, NY. It used to be they were just called murderers or criminals before but I guess someones Religion or Race is what makes them a terrorist or not in this day and age. Its a shame. I hope those boys go to jail for a long time and that guy who shot your friend as well too.

The road to peace is paved with honesty and accountability. I could care less about being "right" in these stupid forum arguments. I am interested in being as objective as possible in the hopes of finding a solution. If I cast blame, it is only meant as constructive criticism, however harsh. Peace is the prize, everything else is just bupkis.

You are correct.
Well so far we have established that the Pals definitly acting wrong and they've been branded as terrorists. The job is 1/2 done. Now we must work on Israels share of accountability in all this and maybe we will accomplish something. Possibly once that is an agreed upon idea then maybe we will get someplace. If Israel actually believes their actions are morally right, when in fact they are just as murderous, the violence will never end. Its going to go tit for tat.

There are many things here that I'd like to address when I have some time but one thing jumped out at me that I want to respond to.

Never said it was a game, but going by your replies you might think some of us here are children unaware of history. You mentioned Hamas government as being terroristic yet you never addressed the origins of the Israeli government and their acceptance into the International political scene that I mentioned.

I assume that in this statement you are referring to groups such as the Irgun and Lehi and the attacks such as the one against the King David Hotel. Here is my question. Are you playing Devil's Advocate or are you really unable to discern a difference between the actions of British Mandate era Jewish terrorist groups and modern Palestinian Terrorist groups such as the ones we have been discussing.

If you really can't see why these groups are not like the other I am happy to elucidate the fundamental differences for you.

Sorry for your loss. Im sure you know there are terrorists from both sides, 3 days ago some 15 Jewish terrorists attacked a young pakistani muslim man with brass knuckles and almost beat him to death whilst calling HIM the terrorist, here in Brooklyn, NY. It used to be they were just called murderers or criminals before but I guess someones Religion or Race is what makes them a terrorist or not in this day and age. Its a shame. I hope those boys go to jail for a long time and that guy who shot your friend as well too.

Yes, I heard about that. To be honest however, those teens are criminals, not terrorists. There is a difference. Terrorists act out of a desire to make an impact on or change large scale political events. The attack on the empire state building was an attempt to punish America for supporting Israel. That is different from a hate crime. While a hate crime my be politically inspired it is usually not part of a larger scale plan to achieve political objectives. I have been beaten up before because of the color of my skin. But I am not a victim of terrorism.

Incidentally, you seem to have missed my point there. I was not telling that story to demonstrate that the Palestinians are undeserving of aid because I have a personal grudge or because they attacked America. I was illustrating how the Palestinian leadership does a poor job of providing incentives for nations to help them as there is no relationship between how much one helps or hurts the Palestinians and their subsequent reaction to you. The three entities most supportive of peace give the most amount of aid to the PA. The EU, America and Israel, in that order. On the other hand, the country that arguably oppresses their Palestinian population the harshest is Lebanon. Yet you see no relationship between how much help an entity gives the PA and Palestinian terrorist acts against them. There is a double standard that ultimately serves to frustrate the peace process and acts as a disincentive to deliver aid to the PA. (Which is its intention I believe.)

The Palestinian attack in '97 was so infuriating (in part, obviously) because the US had done so much to try and advance the peace process, provide aid and investment opportunities in the territories and broker a viable long-term solution. No Arab state has ever even attempted to do a fraction of the good the US has done for the Palestinians. We did not deserve to be repaid with violence against our civilians.

That said...

So, you live in Brooklyn? Whereabouts? I am in williamsburg.

[edit on 10-11-2006 by Shaktimaan]

I also want to answer these few things quickly before they grow too old.

If it wasn't for America helping Israel for the past almost 50 years where would Israel be?

Hard to say as America has only been providing them with substantial loan guarantees and military aid for 30 years. We only began giving them large amounts of aid to offset the aid that the USSR was giving to Egypt, Syria, etc. The aid was less about loving Israel than it was about the cold war. In any case, Israel did fine even when they only had crappy Mirage jets.

They confiscated land without ever paying any fees,rent or compensation to the previous owners. Its the LEAST they could possibly do.

Are you talking pre-WWII or post? I'm assuming post since the land cultivated beforehand was purchased. If you mean post-WWII then there are other things to take into consideration. Many Palestinian Arabs from the north allied with the Mufti of Jerusalem during WWII and fought for the Axis side. Despite this they were not expelled until they started and subsequently lost a civil war in an attempt to expel the Jewish population, followed by an international Arab/Israeli war which meant to destroy the nascent Jewish state despite it being ratified by the UN. Even still, fully 20% of Israel's population remained Arab and they gained full citizenship. Israel did offer to re-admit a small portion of the expelled Palestinians in exchange for peace but were rebuffed.

Many nations that gained independence after WWII underwent ethnic population exchanges with their neighbors. Israel expelled between 600-900,000 Arabs and an equal number of Jews were expelled from the surrounding Arab states who were then taken in by Israel. No restitution has been offered to either group.

In any case, Jewish Palestinians fought for the Allies during WWII. Very few Palestinians did this. I do not feel that Israel should have been obligated to share their new country with a population that rejected the premise of an independent Israel and fought against it at every turn.

Israel might still be in Lebanon taking a lot more then just Shaaba farms.

Shebaa Farms is Syrian. The Lebanon border was ratified by the UN.

What they need is help in making Israel abandon all the settlements on Palestinian land in the WB and gaza, place the walls on Israeli land proper and remove the barricades from within Palestinian lands.

Israel already abandoned all the settlements in Gaza. Most of the settlements in the WB were also slated for dismantlement but the surge in attacks from a newly independent Gaza postponed it. In fact, so far Israel has returned over 90% of all of the land seized during the 6 day war. If Arafat took the deal offered at Taba then 99% of the land seized would have been given over to Arab control. Is all this bloodshed worth 1% to the Palestinians? Of course not. This is not about the land or the right of self-determination.

I think you should be asking yourself that question wether it has been to the Jews of Israel benefit to recieve such support.

Yes, they have.

As far as a civil war goes, yes this was a nicely planned political move on the part of the Israelis,

So the Israelis started the Palestinian internal conflict? This should be good... please explain your theory a little more in depth.

I believe Hamas has more of a want for betterment for the Pals then Israel does.

That's like saying George Bush wants to see average Americans bettered more than France does.

So please when you talk about Hamas, at least know the origins of the Isreli government before you try to make Israel appear as though they stand on higher moral ground compared to Hamas.

Oh, there is no question that Israel has a higher moral standard than Hamas. There is an easy way to tell. Even though Israel has nukes, Hamas (and Palestine) still exists.

Originally posted by Shaktimaan

I assume that in this statement you are referring to groups such as the Irgun and Lehi and the attacks such as the one against the King David Hotel. Here is my question. Are you playing Devil's Advocate or are you really unable to discern a difference between the actions of British Mandate era Jewish terrorist groups and modern Palestinian Terrorist groups such as the ones we have been discussing.

If you really can't see why these groups are not like the other I am happy to elucidate the fundamental differences for you.

No thats not necessary at all. I already know how you intend to spin this to make it seem as though the 2 are any different other then the dates and times.

You see it as a struggle for independence as I see the Pals also struggling for independence, however you attempt to label the Pals for exactly what it is although you won't apply the same to the Irgun/Hagganah/Stern bunch that even still to this day operate in Israel. Now its not independance its "defense". Same crap just a different day and a different label for it and israel got the jump on legitimization before the pals did.

The Palestinian attack in '97 was so infuriating (in part, obviously) because the US had done so much to try and advance the peace process, provide aid and investment opportunities in the territories and broker a viable long-term solution. No Arab state has ever even attempted to do a fraction of the good the US has done for the Palestinians. We did not deserve to be repaid with violence against our civilians.

That said...

Attack? Not to lessen the crime but it was one gunman who happened to be Palestinian. Are you asserting that this man was acting on behalf of Palestine yet those boys beating the Muslim guy were not acting on behalf of Israel?
As painful as it may seem I'd like to refresh your memory , Ali Abu Kamal was a lone gunmen, a murderer with no ties to any Palestinian terror groups, he was one man with mental issues that decided he was going to blame his problems on a few americans because of US support for Israel.

He had a note in his pocket after he blew his own brains out that explained in his own mental way his reasons for doing that. There was no mention of the PLO there was no mention of any terror group , nor did any terror groups come forward to accept any responsibility, nor did his family say he had any ties to terror groups in palestine. The NYC PD Terrorist division also found no ties to terrorism. He was pissed because he lost $320,000.00 and was unable to pay for his son to go to College. If you label him a terrorist merely because he is palestinian, then you might as well do the same for those ignorant boys who were shouting at a Pakistani (Which Im sure you know has nothing to do with Palestine) guy and beating him for attacking Israel as terrorists too. Street Gangs in the USA are being charged under terrorist acts now , and just because this bunch happened to be jewish doesn't give them any higher moral ground then any other who commits the same type of act.

I think we are finished here as I can see how you think and I'm not too keen on it.


Ali Abu Kamal

Pieman I must congratulate you on your debating style. I've never seen anything quite like it.

First you fantasize about what I might say, writing down a bunch of drivel. Then you denounce the fictitious statements as being bigoted and imply that I am racist for thinking them. Following that you make up a bunch of facts based on your own prejudices and bigoted worldview. Finally you state that you don't want to continue talking to me, presumably so I can't respond to your racist, incorrect nonsense.

Well, feel free to abstain from responding, but I think I'd like to make my own replies before ending the thread.

First off, I was pretty clear on what makes one a terrorist as opposed to a hate criminal and the religion of the perpetrator was certainly not one of the reasons. I definitely did not imply that anyone has a higher moral ground by virtue of their being Jewish. Since you seem a little slow on the uptake I'll explain this slowly.

The US Dept. of Defense calls terrorism

the "calculated use of unlawful violence to inculcate fear; intended to coerce or intimidate governments or societies in pursuit of goals that are generally political, religious, or ideological."

Ali Abu Kamal meticulously planned to purchase a gun, travel to New York City and carry out a deadly attack at one of the US's most enduring symbols. In his pocket there was a note describing his motive as being US support of Israel.

THAT is why he is a terrorist. Nothing to do with his being Palestinian. It has nothing to do with whether he was a member of an organization. Baruch Goldstein acted alone yet what he did was certainly terrorism. Terrorism is defined by its INTENT. Get it?

Now let's move on to Brooklyn. You stated that "15 terrorists" beat a man "nearly to death" specifically for "attacking Israel."

You know, I couldn't find any evidence to support half of what you said here. A hate crime is bad enough, why do you feel the need to embellish it with falsities? First off, there were 5 attackers, and they were all teenagers. (If teens beating up a person constitutes terrorism then we have got one HELL of a terrorist problem.) Reports are that they hit him four or five times and broke his nose. He was not near death, exactly. He just got beat up pretty bad. And finally I couldn't find anything that said that their motive was because of terrorism in Israel! They didn't care if he was Palestinian, they only asked if he was Muslim. In fact, they reportedly said,

you Muslim scumbag, you have f---ed up this country. You don’t have the right to live here. Go back to your country.”

Remember that quote, For now let's learn what a hate crime is from wikipedia.

Hate crimes are violent crimes, hate speech or vandalism, motivated by feelings of enmity against an identifiable social group.

Let's ignore the fact that you tripled the number of assailants, exaggerated the injuries, etc. What I find interesting here is that you accuse ME of being bigoted for things I never said, then turn around and make base assumptions about why and what happened based on nothing more than the fact that these kids were Jewish. Even though they yelled at him for wrecking America, (which I am sure you know is a different country than Israel) you insisted on giving them an invented political motive that you assumed to be true because of their religion. And probably so that you could then refer to them as terrorists.

Now, I am not defending them, don't be mistaken. I am merely pointing out that you thought it OK to make up a bunch of lies and bigoted assumptions about the situation. You got a lotta nerve calling ME racist, dude. The one who yells the loudest...

Lastly, The Haganah was never involved in terrorism. In fact they hunted down, arrested and deported Jewish terrorists under the auspices of the British authorities. And they no longer operate in Israel. And the word is spelled "HAGANAH."

Yes maybe 5 were charged but those were the 5 that were caught.
Witnesses saw 10-12 kids. I was going by what I heard from memory on the radio...so shoot me.

Muslim beating

Five Orthodox teens charged in bias attack

BY KERRY BURKE and NANCIE L. KATZ
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITERS


Umbar Islam shows the bloodstained jacket that was worn by his son Shahid Amber, 24, when he was allegedly attacked by gang of Orthodox Jewish teens because he is a Muslim.

Five Orthodox Jewish teens have been slammed with hate-crime charges in the brutal beating of a Pakistani immigrant in Brooklyn.
"They hit me in the face with brass knuckles four or five times while somebody held my hands," said the victim, Shahid Amber, 24, a gas station attendant. "Then they all beat and kicked me. They were screaming 'Muslim m-f-r. You m-f-g Muslim terrorists. Go back to your country.' "

Amber, who was eating ice cream outside a Midwood Dunkin' Donuts when the gang attacked on Sunday, needed 15 stitches on his broken nose and reconstructive surgery.

Witnesses who called 911 said that 10-12 youths jumped him, a source said.

Amber said the attack began after one of the group asked if he were Muslim and he answered yes. Amber's father, Umbar Islam, 56, described a brutal assault by boys in long black jackets, black pants and black hats.

"They punched and broke his nose. They ripped his jacket. He was covered in blood. They said, 'Jews rule this country!' " Islam said. "These people are crazy. In his life, he's never fought. He doesn't know how to fight."

Source

"My son was just standing over there and he did not touch anybody," she said. "He's a sensitive boy. He wouldn't even kill a fly. I believe my son 100%."

She also denied he was biased.

"We have clean hearts," she said.

Maybe he wouldn't kill a fly but he sure as hell knows how to beat the hell out of one. Nice clean hearts that carry around brass knuckles LOL


I didn't make up anything. I went by initial reports and stated them here from what I remembered.

Pieman, I've seen you here making countless wild, baseless accusations about Israel. It looks like you get your information from extremely dubious sources and then parrot it back without ever stopping to verify its accuracy. Really, look at some of this stuff.

Please are you talking to a schoolkid here who is not aware of history?If it wasn't for America helping Israel for the past almost 50 years where would Israel be? I don't see Israel turning down ANY aid whatsoever. They confiscated land without ever paying any fees,rent or compensation to the previous owners. Its the LEAST they could possibly do.

First off, Israel has allowed 50,000 refugees to return under a family reunification program. Additionally, any Palestinian who had land confiscated can apply for compensation from Israel's Custodian of Absentee Property. So far, over 10 million shekels and 54,000 dunums of land have been paid in compensation. So, exactly what the hell are you talking about?

I could spend all day going through your posts correcting all of the blatantly untrue junk that you assert but it would be a waste of time. At a certain point you have to be willing to take responsibility for what you say. For all the time you spend bragging of your understanding of history I am left unimpressed that you took the time to learn any facts beyond the ones that you desired to hear.

I do not think you are a schoolkid who is unaware of history. I think you are an adult who is unaware of history, which is far sadder.

Originally posted by Shaktimaan

First off, Israel has allowed 50,000 refugees to return under a family reunification program. Additionally, any Palestinian who had land confiscated can apply for compensation from Israel's Custodian of Absentee Property. So far, over 10 million shekels and 54,000 dunums of land have been paid in compensation. So, exactly what the hell are you talking about?

A WHOLE 10,000,000.00 ILS
Israel New Shekels = 2,326,481.75 USD
United States Dollars wow I saw an apartment in Tel-Aviv go for 2.5Million! So you mean 54,000dunums which = 13,343.690574 acres of land =175.00 an acre...wow how generous. No mention of being paid for the use or lease of the land the whole time it was confiscated either. Boy them thar palestynians drive a real hard bargain. Will you offer them a seashell necklace next in lieu of cash?

Can you not read here? 54,000 dunums of land AND 10+ mil NIS. Determined on an individual basis (according to what they lost) for those who applied. Get it? The 54,000 dunums of land was COMPENSATION.

If you're trying to further prove my point that you only see what you want to see then you have succeeded admirably.

I am not opposed to criticism of Israel. But only if you print criticisms of TRUE things that ACTUALLY HAPPENED. Is that standard really too high for you to reach for?

Originally posted by Shaktimaan
Can you not read here? 54,000 dunums of land AND 10+ mil NIS. Determined on an individual basis (according to what they lost) for those who applied. Get it? The 54,000 dunums of land was COMPENSATION.

My appologies but it looked like 10Mil NIS was given for the 54000 dunums. I still say I see apartments going for 2.5Mil NIS for 700sq ft in Tel-Aviv..it still doesn't seem like a lot of cash dispersal, it still converts to US$2.3mil and 13K acres and you make no mention between how many people this dispersal was done with and how much/many each person got. I think its fair to want to see an accurate ratio of land & $ to each applying Pal

Originally posted by Shaktimaan
First of all I'd like to state that I am pro-Palestinian

How so? . You read like the israeli party line


EDIT:

I just read the next page and now your pro-Israeli?. Why did you try to trumpet the fact that you were supposely "pro-Palestinian". You post then shifts around the issue, can you clear it up because you sound as if you work for the israeli propaganda department


[edit on 17-11-2006 by chinawhite]

Originally posted by ThePieMaN
Hizbollah shot rockets at the soldiers on the border, not at the entirety of Israel. Israeli forces should have attacked the Hizbollah forces and not the entirety of Lebanon. The Hizbollah militants only began firing rockets into Israel proper about 1 day following their bombardment of Lebanese infrastructure and even then they told the Israelis that they only wanted to bargain for the Lebanese prisoners being held in Israel. (Which is one of the items covered in res 1701 the consideration of Lebanese prisoners held in Israel). Israeli troops went into Lebanon and took some of those people just like Hizbollah did.


Pie

Ok, so by that logic, say the US dropped bombs right on the Canadian/US border, what would you say then? A spade is a spade, and act of aggression is an act of aggression. Plain and simple.