Iraq War a "pure failure", Former UN Chief Weapons Inspector says

Originally posted by marg6043
Denied Ignorance pokey, pokey becasue is nothing more than a hypocrecy when our own government has resposibility for the death of thousnds of Iraqis while under the umbrella of liberation.

And yet Ironically Abu Ghraib was initially renown as "Sadaam's Torture Central"

The Abu Ghraib prison (Arabic: سجن أبو غريب; also Abu Ghurayb, 33° 17' 27.6" N, 44° 3' 51.4" E) is in Abu Ghraib, an Iraqi city 32 km (20 mi) west of Baghdad. It became internationally known as a place where Saddam Hussein's government tortured and executed dissidents, and later as the site of Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse scandal where the United States military's torture of Iraqi dissidents was revealed in a series of photographs published in worldwide news media.

Originally posted by marg6043
Abu Ghraib should never be forgoten because it shows how happy our own govenrment is promoting and supporting torture, executions and rape rooms.

At what point did the Government sanction the torture that went on there. The acts were carried out by soldiers without government consent, to imply so is just ridiculous.

As for the murder and rape, the only site I could find that claims that US soldiers murdered and raped in that facility is from islamawareness.net - which I'm sure is a thoroughly reputable publication rife with fact checking.

Using you own words I can equally say. Abu Ghraib should never be forgotten because of those that lost their lives to the Sadaam Regime. It was the place where political prisoners were tortured and executed —up to 4,000 prisoners are thought to have been executed there in 1984 alone.

During the 1990s human rights organization Amnesty International documented repeated events where as many as several hundred inmates were executed in a single episode. These included hundreds executed in November 1996, and several hundred members of the Shi'a denomination killed in 1998 and 2001. Amnesty reported that it could not produce a complete picture of events at the prison due to government secrecy. It was also the reputed location of Saddam Hussein's alleged woodchipper.

(Note on woodchipper: the Husseins (sic) used a woodchipper to gruesomely kill male opponents (feet first to prolong the agony), and used their shredded bodies as fish food.)

Originally posted by marg6043
Pokey, Pokey seems to ignore how well the Bush administration seems very fond of torture themselves.

Hypocrecy (Hypocrisy) Pokey, hypocrecy (hypocrisy) .

Deny ignorancy.

Yeah yeah, deny "ignorancy" (sic) yourself, pot calling the kettle black. And while you're at it, deny spelling too. 2nd language or not, it isn't hard to cut and paste your text into a Word processor and hit the "Check spelling button".

Originally posted by marg6043
Sooo who is killing now Iraqis? Ooops they are killing themselves, I guess that is ok with you.

Stanstheman said it best.

"I am sure that a patriot of any country would rather die in the battle for freedom then get pulled off the street and raped and killed to satisfy the blood thirsty dictator that ruled their country."

Pokey Oats

Originally posted by Pokey Oats
"I am sure that a patriot of any country would rather die in the battle for freedom then get pulled off the street and raped and killed to satisfy the blood thirsty dictator that ruled their country."

Pokey Oats

You know I actually almost agree with you, but see what is going in Iraq right now after liberation makes very difficult to turn a blind eye to the death, devastation and desperation that has taken hold of that nation.

All under the watchful eyes of the liberators.

13 soldiers already death since yesterday, 13 soldiers that will never be able to understand what their role has been in post war Iraq.

because they knew their role on conquering Iraq and they did it with superb mastery but now what is going is just unjustified and they are caught in the middle.

BTW thanks for the spell check

Originally posted by neformore
The gassed Kurds were in Southern Iraq, close to the Iran border - your detailed knowledge of the subject is amazing. The US sold the chemical weapons precursors to Saddam Hussein in batched quantities despite an attempt by congress to stop them being sold as it was during the period of the Iran/Iraq war.

Halabja is in Kurdistan in northern Iraq. The chemicals used to kill the Kurds were bought from a Dutch businessman who was later convicted in the Dutch courts. So much for your detailed knowledge.

Iraq was one of the most heavily reconnoitered countries in the world following the first Gulf War, and yet you maintain that they managed to smuggle a whole swathe of WMD's out of the country in pick up trucks, instead of the "mad dictator" using them (please tell me what benefit to Saddam Hussein there was of shipping his weapons out when the US and British were coming to knock on his door? All that time and development wasted....its not like he gave a damn about his own people is it?)

Well Sadaam employeed a woman who went by "Dr. Germ" and many 18 wheelers did cross the Syrian border right before the war. Do the math. And then there were those pesky Kurds who fell over dead.

And as for your comments about Blair.......try asking a few British people what they think about his stance on Iraq. I think you'll find most think hes a poodle that followed Bush blindly up a dark alleyway, and was sadly misguided in doing so.

"Revile" means to "criticize abusively", while you're out buying a world atlas you may want to pick up a dictionary.

Originally posted by stanstheman

We know he had WMD, he used them, the leukemia rate among Iraqis is extremely high which was attributed to the manufacture of WMDs. Where do you think they are? If they are no longer in Iraq where could they be?

You may want to do a bit more research before you spout comments off like this to support your position.

First off, the WMD he used against the Kurds were of US origin - we gave the weapons to him back when we considered him an ally.

The Leukemia rate you mention is a gift also from the US, not in the form of weapon assistance, rather the depleted uranium weaponry used in the 1991 gulf war. The only "WMD" found this time around were empty or out dated canisters that have a rusted emblem of an american flag on them.

Originally posted by LogansRun


The Leukemia rate you mention is a gift also from the US, not in the form of weapon assistance, rather the depleted uranium weaponry used in the 1991 gulf war. The only "WMD" found this time around were empty or out dated canisters that have a rusted emblem of an american flag on them.

Read the whole thread LR, I already said I agreed with that point when it was made by another poster. I still say the WMDs are in Syria. I am entitled to my opinion.

Originally posted by Pokey Oats

At what point did the Government sanction the torture that went on there. The acts were carried out by soldiers without government consent, to imply so is just ridiculous.

As for the murder and rape, the only site I could find that claims that US soldiers murdered and raped in that facility is from islamawareness.net - which I'm sure is a thoroughly reputable publication rife with fact checking.

Well then let me offer you a few more "reliable" sources:

Wikipedia

From Source Article

Specifically, Taguba found that between October and December of 2003 there were numerous instances of “sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses” at Abu Ghraib. This systematic and illegal abuse of detainees, Taguba reported, was perpetrated by soldiers of the 372nd Military Police Company, and also by members of the American intelligence community. (The 372nd was attached to the 320th M.P. Battalion, which reported to Karpinski’s brigade headquarters.) Taguba’s report listed some of the wrongdoing:

Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees; pouring cold water on naked detainees; beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair; threatening male detainees with rape; allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell; sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick, and using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee.

The New Yorker

The new standard

MSNBC

The Sunday Herald


This is really disgusting and I am ashamed that you say it's "rediculous". Please read up on the subject a bit more. There are far more sites than islamawareness.net reporting this.

[edit on 3-11-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]

Originally posted by stanstheman

Read the whole thread LR, I already said I agreed with that point when it was made by another poster. I still say the WMDs are in Syria. I am entitled to my opinion.

I did read thru it prior to responding, I missed that point - sorry.

As for your "opinion" that is fine. Do you have any links to support this assertation or is this only "opinion"? I have many "opinions" about a great many things in regard to this whole mess, however I only comment on the ones I can back up with some sort of proof or some reference to why I have the opinion to begin with.

This is ATSNN folks, let's chill on the attitude please.

Originally posted by marg6043
[
You know I actually almost agree with you, but see what is going in Iraq right now after liberation makes very difficult to turn a blind eye to the death, devastation and desperation that has taken hold of that nation.

All under the watchful eyes of the liberators.

13 soldiers already death since yesterday, 13 soldiers that will never be able to understand what their role has been in post war Iraq.

because they knew their role on conquering Iraq and they did it with superb mastery but now what is going is just unjustified and they are caught in the middle.

I just saw a news video (I think on CNN) about US units working with Iraqi soldiers, one day the whole Iraqi unit just didn't show up for patrol! Also for days after payday they don't show up. Somehow the Iraqi gov't has to require these soldiers to do their jobs. The soldiers who do show up are getting trained well and are a serious force but it's these Iraqi units that treat protecting their country like it's summer camp that's screwing things up. How can they be turned around? Do they need more ownership? Punishment? I don't know, it's almost as if they assume they're not integral to a peaceful Iraq. Frightening. I know that I am sick of watching our guys die, that's for sure.

Now this I agree with you 100%. The nature of Iraq is unique as you have different groups of people hell bent on killing each other living under Sadam - not a perfect arrangement mind you, but for some reason it was stable. Now that he is gone, everyone wants revenge for things that have been going on for years. We can train entire divisions of Iraqi's for their military or their police force, give them weapons and experience, and then have them turn around to join a death squad or a militia - completely negating any influence we have attempted to have.
It is time to accept the fact that these people dont necessarily want to be liberated - at least not by us. I wonder when our illustrious leaders will catch this clue.




mod edit, big quote

[edit on 3-11-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]

Originally posted by LogansRun

It is time to accept the fact that these people dont necessarily want to be liberated - at least not by us. I wonder when our illustrious leaders will catch this clue.

I think the trick is that you have to make them love freedom, money, and a future more than they hate the past. It's hard to let go of serious gripes when you have nothing to look forward to. And I don't think their lack of looking forward is neccessarliy our fault. It has to be a whole country going under some serious mental hardship at the same time? Maybe we need to flood Iraq with social workers and psychiatrists! I don't know, I mean we put up electrical service and they steal the copper wire, blow up generators, kill their own police. It seems like they just don't get that things have changed. I think our gov't gets it, I just don't think Rummy and Cheney are not the types to buy into my theory. You can't possibly endure what these people have endured for 30 plus years, wake up free one day, run to Walmart and buy a big screen TV to make it all better. The transition must be wonderful and horrible.

I think it just has to come down to a point where the Iraqis' themselves say enough is enough
and slap the bad guys and militias down and start punishing foreign insurgents (not us:lol in very public ways.

And I don't know how to insert links but do a search for: Iraq WMDs Syria semis satellite photos and see what pops up.

While I don't support fighting wars for big oil and Israel, the statement is obvious hyerbole too.

The commies would love that the war was a total failure so that they could prance in and take over themselves.

Always check the motives of your critics, just as your critics will check yours.

posted by LogansRun
The nature of Iraq is unique as you have different groups of people hell bent on killing each other living under Sadam - not a perfect arrangement mind you, but for some reason it was stable. Now that he is gone, everyone wants revenge for things that have been going on for years. We can train entire divisions of Iraqi's for their military or their police force, give them weapons and experience, and then have them turn around to join a death squad or a militia - completely negating any influence we have attempted to have.
It is time to accept the fact that these people dont necessarily want to be liberated - at least not by us. I wonder when our illustrious leaders will catch this clue.

Iraq is an artifical construction set up by the British after WW1 - as was Yugoslavia. And what happened there after Tito was gone? Same as now happening in Iraq without Saddam. Absolutely unmitigated by the American presence of course.

The Balkan wars has been contained. How? By slowly admitting the 5 or 6 nations that former Yugoslavia was constructed from into a greater community of trade - the EU.

When people depend on trading with eachother they are less likely to kill eachother.

@ khunmoon

Years ago I dated an Italian of Yugoslavian descent. When the Balkan War started I asked him how he felt about the whole thing. His response? "They're all crazy over there, they all hate each other, always have, always will." He was content to leave it at that Perhaps the rest of the world is just more pragmatic than we are, maybe the USA expects too much?



mod edit, big quote

[edit on 3-11-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]

Originally posted by stanstheman
His response? "They're all crazy over there, they all hate each other, always have, always will." He was content to leave it at that Perhaps the rest of the world is just more pragmatic than we are, maybe the USA expects too much?

You know what that is exactly what my husband said after spending 18 months in the middle east during the first gulf war.

He say that the captured militants keep in pens during the conflict would fight with each other and will kill each other if left unattended.

The soldiers in the beginning didn't know what the problem was, until they discovered the rivalry with the different groups.

While my husband was in Saudi he say that the people were nice and pleasant, but he discovered also that their behavior was just because the need for US forces in the country during the conflict.

He said that they will turn their back to anybody that was not one of them.

But he also said that many soldiers had to be reprimanded because they would show not respect for he Arabs in their land.

And that was seen as very disrespectful for them.

I imagine that the social differences between the western and the people of the middle east is hard to understand by many unless they visit their lands.