is torture acceptable?

I think a more appropriate question which pertians to this thread is:

What constitutes tourture?

Underwear on the head?
Barking dogs?
Loud music?
Cold/Hot rooms (how cold/hot?)
Being naked, hooded and laughed at?
Being placed in uncomfortable positions?
light/sound depravation?
Chinese water tourture?
gential electrocution?
removing of finger/toe nails?
Removal of fingers/toes?
Beheadings?
Multilations?
Buring bodies?

Which ones have been done by US forces involved in WOT?
Which ones have been done by 'terrorists' in the WOT


[edit on 19-10-2006 by ferretman2]

[edit on 19-10-2006 by ferretman2]

To a large part, it depends upon how one defines torture. If in fact you are talking about sleep depervation and or loud noises, I don't see what the problem is.

If you're talking about cutting off body parts, then I have an issue. When you use physical torture (cutting off body parts) you tend to get people to talk. The problem is that they often don't know the answers to the questions that you're asking but they will say anything that you want to hear just to stop the pain, That's why physical torture doesn't work.

Originally posted by ferretman2
I think a more appropriate question which pertians to this thread is:

What constitutes tourture?

Well after being threatened by an OP with wearing one of their pairs of panties on my head, I would still have to say that panties on the head is not torture. Nor would I equate having worn those panties on my head with anything that our troops endured at the hands of the Japanese, anything John McCain went through in Vietnam, nothing close to our Rangers who were shot and dragged through the streets of Mogadishu, Somalia, or most recently our troops who were taken, genitally mutalated, had limbs removed and then were dragged through the streets.

I guess torture has a lot to do with your pain tolerance, your fear level, what you have to hide etc. I don't believe in permanent damage but on the other hand, I can see where the interrogators would get frustrated. I also don't know what I would do if I was in that situation. If I was left alone in a room with someone who was suspected of hurting one of my kids, and that person would not tell me where my kid was I can't say that our conversation would remain, ahh, civil. I am pretty sure that I would start by hurting him a little and then progress to hurting him a lot. I can see where our troops would feel the same way.

So I sit here far away from harm, in my warm house, surrounded by my family and say, "I am against torture." How easy is that? Put me in a different situation and see how fast I rationalize the need for it.

No form of torture is acceptable. We do not need to digrace this nation with torture. If you do believe in torture please go move to another nation. We are a great nation because we respect the human condition, we live by what God would do not some animals.

We start torturing with the permission of the republic and God will turn his/her back on this nation.

Originally posted by stanstheman

Originally posted by ferretman2
I think a more appropriate question which pertians to this thread is:

What constitutes tourture?

Well after being threatened by an OP with wearing one of their pairs of panties on my head, I would still have to say that panties on the head is not torture.

For the record stan, I dont wear panties, I wear boxers, and there is not one person here that could wear them on thier face for even one hour and then tell me thats not torture.
So rubbing somebodys face in feces isnt torture? Draping a blood soaked, urine soaked feces coverd cloth on a mans face isnt torture? Like i said, wear my drawers on your face for a day then tell me its not torture.
The chicken-hawks are always so fast to advocate torture or to try and blur the lines of interrogation and torture. THey are two different things,
True americans, ney true CHRISTIANS despise torture in all its forms.
Saying some torture is ok is like saying some rape is ok.

Originally posted by 11Bravo

Originally posted by stanstheman

Originally posted by ferretman2
I think a more appropriate question which pertians to this thread is:

What constitutes tourture?

Well after being threatened by an OP with wearing one of their pairs of panties on my head, I would still have to say that panties on the head is not torture.

For the record stan, I dont wear panties, I wear boxers, and there is not one person here that could wear them on thier face for even one hour and then tell me thats not torture.
So rubbing somebodys face in feces isnt torture? Draping a blood soaked, urine soaked feces coverd cloth on a mans face isnt torture? Like i said, wear my drawers on your face for a day then tell me its not torture.
The chicken-hawks are always so fast to advocate torture or to try and blur the lines of interrogation and torture. THey are two different things,
True americans, ney true CHRISTIANS despise torture in all its forms.
Saying some torture is ok is like saying some rape is ok.

Bravo, you are getting a little carried away with your shorts, and the whole reference to skid marks is really TMI. You may have crossed the line into perv land.

Once again, I am against torture, and I admit I am human, and in certain scenarios could partake in it. You, on the other hand come across as a holier than thou Christian who seems to think you live on a higher moral ground than I do. I admit that I can make mistakes when it comes to this, that I am imperfect and I can understand how in some circumstances it could happen to our soldiers. I don't think it's right, but I acknowledge that sometimes good people can do bad things.

Im not getting carried away with my shorts stan, Im giving you a clearer view of reality. You said "I would still have to say that panties on the head is not torture"
evidently you were under the assumption that these were fresh clean panties. Here is TMI for you, womens underwear can be worse then mens, and I still defy anyone to wear my drawers on their face and tell me its not torture.
Sleep deprivation can extract all the information ever needed. PERIOD.
"You, on the other hand come across as a holier than thou Christian who seems to think you live on a higher moral ground than I do"
Im sorry if that is the way I came across, I dont always choose my words well. I asure you that I am no better than you in either my actions or my thoughts, but I do know torture when I see it. We can both agree that we are human, and people make mistakes, but I can tell you that torture is being conducted on human beings in the so called WOT, and its being condoned by higher ups in the military. That is not somebody 'making a mistake'.
By not speaking out loudly and passionately against torture at every opportunity you are giving your tacit consent, and whether its you or your children or your grandchildren, the implications of approving torture today means receiving torture tomorrow.
You reap what you sew. You get what you give.
What goes around comes around.
Instant karmas gonna getcha.
Or if you will, be the better man, take the higher road, and never stoop to their level.

Originally posted by 11Bravo

You reap what you sew. You get what you give.
What goes around comes around.

I disagree with you there. I do not believe if we stopped "torturing" our enemies that torture against us would stop. It would go on regardless. If you are against torture than so be it, but stopping torture will not in any way guarantee good treatment of Americans or our allies if they are caught by terrorists.

Also, some people would consider sleep deprivation torture.

Originally posted by magicmushroom
Seeker, have you heard the phrase two wrongs dont make a right, just because terrrorists/extremists act like savages does not mean we have to stoop to their level. Civilised countries should set the standards for others to follow otherwise we are no better than them.

Let me give you a historical example to refute that notion of "civilized," k?
The Roman Empire was the most "CIVILIZED" empire/nation/country at that time and because they played by the rules of "civilized countries should set the standards for others," they were ultimately defeated and/or overcome and overrun by UNCIVILIZED barbarian tribes. Do you know what followed the fall of the Roman Empire? Europes 'Dark Ages'.

As such, if using some "torture" methods means NOT being overcome or overrun by the "uncivilized," then guess what.....?

The use of "torture" has nothing remotely to do with the argument of 'we are more CIVILIZED' than they. Nothing but a defensive PC labeling tactic and excuse. It has been said that to fight fire you have to resort to fighting it with fire (ie: fight fire with fire). My thoughts are along the same lines: if the only thing that gets these terrorists and fanatical nuts thinking twice is having the same tactics they utilize used against them, then so be it.

[edit on 19-10-2006 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by stanstheman

Originally posted by 11Bravo

You reap what you sew. You get what you give.
What goes around comes around.

I disagree with you there.

Im sorry I should have used quotes because those arent really my words above they are 'conventional wisdom'.
Thus you are not disagreeing with me, you are disagreeing with 'conventional wisdom'.
And I in no way meant that if we stopped torturing, 'they' would stop torturing, what I meant was, and I guess I wasnt clear on this so I will try to slow down when I type it, ONCE a Republic gives the greenlight to ANY form of torture then eventually the citizens become the victems of torture themselves.
Even simpler still, if we let the government torture somebody for some reason, we give them the implied ability to torture anybody for any reason, even us.

Originally posted by stanstheman

Originally posted by Strangerous
Hmm who do I believe - the most respected broadcaster in the World or Seekerof?

The BBC? You're kidding right? In the world? Please tell me you're pulling my leg! Ohhh I get it, you were using that ol' English wit to be absurd!

Name one then! Be very interested in your views and reasons.

Originally posted by Seekerof
Lets try some reverse logic here since it is apparent that you, as with others, appear to be protecting those "terror suspects," you know, the ones that "havent been proven guilty hence suspect":

In consideration…Imo, there is something to this argument…later referencing civilized peoples.

(Since the US always 'comes-up'):

The “Due Process” argument arises often on similar topics, often as (paraphrased): “Due Process” as a provision is not to be given to ‘terrorists’ per se but should apply to those ‘accused of terroristic acts/terrorism’. Usually accompanying this argument on detainment and torture is also some form of ‘reciprocity’ comment eg.…if they do it, it doesn’t mean that we should...hearts and minds will not follow if we do it…on and on…

But, does the ‘US Bill of Rights’ apply in full to alien non-state terrorists?
Imo…No.

Does the traditional ‘Laws of War’ entitle people that commit terroristic acts while knowingly and intentionally blending with civilians the rights of “Lawful Combatants”?
Imo…No.

Could the current US criminal justice system and its' courts, statutes and procedural obligations ever become capable of handling international alien non-state organized terrorists en masse?
Imo…No.

Can current US domestic criminal interrogation procedures handle the broad scope and potential foreseeability of terrorism, terroristic acts and alien non-state organized terrorists?
Imo…No.

As a caveat…again…some form of information extraction must be involved without question…but not to the extent or level nor the reasons commonly used by terrorist entities…

Now…closer to home…if torturing an alleged terrorist to extract information which would be required to save my family, my children...this is not a civilized “decision” to make…there is no decision….this ‘terrorist’ would be tortured with-out regard to any rules…or civility....

I would expect to be then accuse me under the same standards as professed...


mg

terrorist tourture people, so lets all lower ourselves to that level because they did it. What a lame ass excuse. Pardon my language there but it disgusts me to watch a person say that because terrorist do it, that we who are suppose to be the morally higher people, the freedom fighters, it is ok for us to do it too. What a load of crap.

[edit on 19-10-2006 by grimreaper797]

Originally posted by Strangerous

Originally posted by stanstheman

Originally posted by Strangerous
Hmm who do I believe - the most respected broadcaster in the World or Seekerof?

The BBC? You're kidding right? In the world? Please tell me you're pulling my leg! Ohhh I get it, you were using that ol' English wit to be absurd!

Name one then! Be very interested in your views and reasons.

Well since I've started "fishing" for my news, and by that I mean checking out the internet, different sites, following threads etc, I have learned that most of the MSM including cable news is shallow and untimely. Unfortuately in order to be well informed you have to work for information. Things I read on the internet are usually broadcast on cable news days or weeks later. I do watch some cable news but I find Fox to be the most shallow of the shallow and for the most part the anchors on CNN are surly know-it-alls with superiority complexes. So I cannot name one, I can't name any. If I want to know what's going on in the world I have to go find it.

Originally posted by Seekerof

Let me give you a historical example to refute that notion of "civilized," k?
The Roman Empire was the most "CIVILIZED" empire/nation/country at that time and because they played by the rules of "civilized countries should set the standards for others," they were ultimately defeated and/or overcome and overrun by UNCIVILIZED barbarian tribes. Do you know what followed the fall of the Roman Empire? Europes 'Dark Ages'.

Rome fell because they bit off more than they could chew. Where do you think the term "Crossing the Rubicon" came from.

It doesnt matter how bad things get, we never torture. We are better than that, only cowards torture, a people that have virtue do not. We need to wear the white hats, this is not politiclly correct, this is morally correct. We do the right thing not because it is easy. We do the right thing because it is right. Doing what is rightous is very hard to do, we need to do that and do it well.

I really didnt think we had Americans, that were not considered pshycopaths that condoned torture, for to do so comes from the mind of a pshycopath.

Originally posted by Seekerof

Let me give you a historical example to refute that notion of "civilized," k?
The Roman Empire was the most "CIVILIZED" empire/nation/country at that time and because they played by the rules of "civilized countries should set the standards for others," they were ultimately defeated and/or overcome and overrun by UNCIVILIZED barbarian tribes. Do you know what followed the fall of the Roman Empire? Europes 'Dark Ages'.

That's not a very accurate analogy. I can think of 5 countries off the top of my head that would replace America and it's world leader position if she falls. There will not be a dark age of any sorts if America falls like Rome.

Torture is a wierd thing to me. If say, someone murdered a family member and kidnapped another, then I would definitely torture the person who did it, if I managed to 'capture' them.

I don't think I can condone torturing prison inmates whom aren't convicts. I really can't condone government law allowing it. That's absolutely couterproductive IMO.

Regretfully, I believe that there is nothing that can be done to stop it. It's a part of human nature. Like all things people do, same things, just different settings. If/when we colonize space, same things, mars will invade europa because venus told mars that europa was buying violet space dust from Earths moon, and we all know that violet space dust makes the best planet killer weapons. Of course Europa was initially said to be linked with the Space Rangers whom which crashed two Interstellar Cruisers into Mars' financial space station just a couple years prior.

It might have been better if we never found out about it. Could it be a necessary evil? I don't really know. It kinda boils down to heart vs. mind.

Lets just really look at the fact here, torture does not workand it has been proven time and time again. Lets face it you can torture a person and they well infaticly tell you there mother was Winston Churchill, maybe this is where the US government got there intel on the WMA . There are Arabic dialects the US government does not even has translators for, that mite be a lead they mite wanna follow up. The bottom line is torture is easy and lazy and especially when the mossad gives you a heads up theres going to be massive terror attacks today and all the US can do at that point is pull a few Arabs of the street and torture them into saying they planned the how attack.




[edit on 19-10-2006 by helium3]

Originally posted by Seekerof
It has been said that to fight fire you have to resort to fighting it with fire (ie: fight fire with fire). My thoughts are along the same lines: if the only thing that gets these terrorists and fanatical nuts thinking twice is having the same tactics they utilize used against them, then so be it.

Sorry but we dont fight fire with fire anymore. We dig ditches to fight wildfires and use water and other agents.

So you think we must become terrorists and fanatical nuts to win this war? How about we dont do things to make people want to commit terror against us? I dont see the Swiss getting attacked. Only countries that are supporting Isreal, only countries that are running over other countries and placing dictators so our corporations can profit. That is what creates terror.

We can stop terror right now. We have shown we are strong and can throw our weight around. How about we admitt we have been wrong in the past and start working to make it a better world? How about we stop supporting Isreal? Pull out of the mid east and let them know we will do what it takes to help them keep there sovereignty? Why dont we be a real humanitarein nation?



[edit on 19-10-2006 by LoneGunMan]

Sorry but we dont fight fire with fire anymore.

fire vs fire is the same as gun vs gun, machine gun vs machine gun, bombs vs bombs. there is no other weaker tactic anyone would want to do. Unless you are saying you would bring a knife to a gunfight?

We dig ditches to fight wildfires and use water and other agents.

exactly, we try to outsmart the enemy, by going over and beyond their capabilities.

How about we dont do things to make people want to commit terror against us? I dont see the Swiss getting attacked

You dont see the Swiss doing anything but being Swiss. Why wou;d anyone want to be Swiss? Everyone ignores the Swiss. Everyone wants to be American. WHY? because of what we do and what happens. Its self explanatory. No other country can compete. If you want to challenge this, tell me, what other country can compete with USA? In terms of prosperity, freedoom, economy, etc

Only countries that are supporting Isreal, only countries that are running over other countries and placing dictators so our corporations can profit. That is what creates terror.

Why would u bring up Israel? What do you have against them? And who is placing dictators so which corporations can profit?

We can stop terror right now. We have shown we are strong and can throw our weight around. How about we admitt we have been wrong in the past and start working to make it a better world?

how are we supposed to start making it a better world? If it isnt by overthrowing ruthless regimes than I dont know what other way to do it. Would you recommend we make peace with all world leaders? Regardless if you are ruthless dictators who kill innocent families because of belief? You want your leader to be buddy buddy with a guy that rapes girls and kills innocent life?

How about we stop supporting Isreal? Pull out of the mid east and let them know we will do what it takes to help them keep there sovereignty? Why dont we be a real humanitarein nation?

I dont get this part. If we pull out of the middle east all chaos will break loose from all sides. Total violence, self destruction (more than now) will follow. And yet this will

let them know we will do what it takes to help them keep there sovereignty?

and oh yes

Why dont we be a real humanitarein nation?

Great idea! lets all be humanitarian by leaving the middle east and let them all fight each other to death with no peace or authority to keep order among the innocent/willing. yeah!! we can all view the blood and gore on youtube.com and post messages such as "8,981 iraqis get heads blown off so far month, US hopes middle east works it out soon"


[edit on 10/20/2006 by H34T533K3R]

I'm against all torture, except for war criminals, such as Bush, Cheney, Kim Jong Ill, Hitler, ect... Those bastards.

Just kidding. But i'm against all torture, and those who are for it, I suggest you to get out of here and move to North Korea.

[edit on 20-10-2006 by Vitchilo]