Can we finally admit the Iraq war is a complete failure?

Originally posted by The Iconoclast
Has it ever occured to you that maybe our forces are not on the side of that argument which you think they are?

No.

Also, I would like to know who got to decide who was "good" and who was "evil"? I think that changes depending on the cultural filter you apply to the situation, no?

Spare me the moral relativism. That's so...sophomoric.

I would think that if we took a poll around the world, we would be disappointed to find out which side of we find ourselves blindly supporting.

I'm not interested in polls. Like the president said, in the war on terrorism, you are either with us or against us.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
When the job is done. I can't say when that will be, but it clearly is not yet.
When do you stop mowing the lawn?

You mean to tell me this was is open ended in that there is no objective? You told me earlier that the objective was to simply overthrow Saddam. If that's the case let's get the hell out. How can you ask the American people to keep supporting this when nobody can tell us what the mission is.

Invading Iraq probably was unnecessary, but most everyone in positions of power agreed at the time that it was.

First step in recovery is admitting you have a problem. At least you admit that... most won't even go that far. Besides, we were lied to back then.

We have to stay the course because the course is to put an end to the terrorist threat that has engulfed the whole world.

There was no terrorist threat in Iraq when we invaded. There is now because we invaded.

We have no choice, but to fight or to surrender.
Surrender is unacceptable.

There are always choices and alternatives and nobay's saying that we are "surrendering". Its time for the Iraqis to figure this out now. As long as we stay there will always be "terrorists" trying to get us out and therefore using your arguement, this war will never end. THAT is what is unacceptable.

The only victory in the road ahead is complete subordination to our mistakes in Iraq. Evidence presented to us over the years has proven that Saddam was no threat and that this administration was well aware of that as they were well aware that Saddam had no ties to any terrorist organization, so why are we still justifying this war by stating that Saddam has been ousted hence we've promoted peace and stability across the Middle Eastern landscape with the sacrafice of 650 thousand civilians?

We've encouraged terrorism in the Middle East by smoking out the voices of moderation that could have been achieved through passive diplomacy rather than the agressive hardline stance this damned American government can't snub. It's becuase of U.S detriment via it's foriegn policy that terrorism has escalated to the numbers we see today.

Luxifero

[edit on 13-10-2006 by Luxifero]

Originally posted by mecheng
You mean to tell me this was is open ended in that there is no objective? You told me earlier that the objective was to simply overthrow Saddam.

Now you're twisting my words and selectively quoting my statements.

I've had my say and it's articulate enough for any willing person to understand.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
We have no choice, but to fight or to surrender.

Surrender is unacceptable.

Is this said out of pride? Greed?

Why is surrender unacceptable? Why is admitting defeat not an option?

He who fights and runs away....

Grady
I mean no disrespect to you. You obviously stand by your government and in some ways that is admirable. I don't however think I'm twisting your words and would appreciate more of your input. You have made some good points. This is simply a debate... nothing personal.

However, I think people like yourself who believe in the administration are running out of logical arguements and end up having to give up the debate out of frustration. Perhaps thats a sign that maybe, just maybe, we were wrong. Heck, I supported the war when we went in, but that was when I was lied to that they had WMDs, were a threat to America and had connections to Al Qaeda. Since we have found the truth, I don't think you can blame anyone for flip-flopping and so you shouldn't feel bad if you chose to either.

Again, thanks for your input and hope to hear more from you.

[edit on 13-10-2006 by mecheng]

Well since the situation in Afghanistan is dired similar to Iraq, I guess we just might as well give up on that too...agreed? After all its a Muslim country that resists occupation, and our objective is to prevent terrorists from operating there again and created a stable country.

I thought it was to get OBL which Bush no says is no longer a priority either.
Also, I believe we got permission to go into Afghanistan (I'm no expert so if I'm wrong please feel free to educate me) which is different than us invading Iraq.



[edit on 13-10-2006 by mecheng]

Originally posted by mecheng
I thought it was to get OBL which Bush no says is no longer a priority either.
Also, I believe we got permission to go into Afghanistan (I'm no expert so if I'm wrong please feel free to educate me) which is different than us invading Iraq.

We never had a permission from the UN. All we did was say we got attacked and went into Afghanistan rolling. OBL is not Al Qaeda. Its a group. I sure as hell know we didn't lose a couple hundred American soldiers to just one man.

No kidding... I realize he's not Al Qaeda. What I said was we went in there to get him. And if I remember we got permission from the Afghan government to do so.

Originally posted by mecheng
No kidding... I realize he's not Al Qaeda. What I said was we went in there to get him. And if I remember we got permission from the Afghan government to do so.

If I remember correctly, the Afghan govt. at the time was the Taliban which had control most of Afghanistan that didn't want us in Afghanistan. They refuse to hand over OBL as well as other members of Al Qaeda, destroy the camps, etc. Not to mention why would the Taliban hand over somebody that they allied with?

No matter what the outcome, no war will ever be a none failiure to humanity.

Deltaboy, sorry but to be perfectly honest I don't know enough about what's going on in Afghanistan to answer you. I simply haven't followed events as closely there as I have in Iraq perhaps because its not reported on as much. I'm not doging your question but how about we discuss Iraq and Baker's report that democracy (the latest objective of this war) will not be possible in the near future and that we should not worry about victory right now, making this war a failure... let's tackle one mess at a time please.

Since you seem to have some ideas perhaps you could enlighten us on what should be done to finish this war in Iraq and send our heros home.

Originally posted by deltaboy

If I remember correctly, the Afghan govt. at the time was the Taliban which had control most of Afghanistan that didn't want us in Afghanistan. They refuse to hand over OBL as well as other members of Al Qaeda, destroy the camps, etc. Not to mention why would the Taliban hand over somebody that they allied with?

We dont need to be there either. If we werent screwing with other countries business and backing Isreal we wouldnt be in this mess would we? I dont see anyone attacking the Swiss do you? They are more free than we are. We have become the corporate backing monsters that authors, great leaders and thinkers have warned us about forever.

I dont want to be part of that machine anymore Do you?

Originally posted by mecheng


Since you seem to have some ideas perhaps you could enlighten us on what should be done to finish this war in Iraq and send our heros home.

Since you asked kindly, I'll tell you. Make life hell for the foreign terrorists that have enter the country. Keep training Iraqi personnel to the point that they are capable of keeping the country stable in large numbers, which is why insurgents and terrorists are trying to kill as many of them as possible to prevent that. Help Iraq on its feet by providing electricity and other services, also for stability, it also depends on good economic conditions, which is why terrorists and insurgents are attacking the oil pipelines which is the lifeline of Iraq that depends on source of income to keep a country going. And also the political situation where the Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds need to work together to have a strong central govt. to lead the nation. Then when possible, troops can be pulled out.

I fully understand that this is generally a Bash Bush and Conservatives website. But this "Get out of Iraq now" BS has got to stop! Isn't this what you guys did in Vietnam? Cut and Run? Would you prefer that we just gather up all our tents and leave now?

Can't any of you at least admit that it's better to keep the terrorist busy in Iraq and Afganistan as opposed to having them work their magic in this country?

COWARDS!

Originally posted by LoneGunMan

Originally posted by deltaboy

If I remember correctly, the Afghan govt. at the time was the Taliban which had control most of Afghanistan that didn't want us in Afghanistan. They refuse to hand over OBL as well as other members of Al Qaeda, destroy the camps, etc. Not to mention why would the Taliban hand over somebody that they allied with?

We dont need to be there either. If we werent screwing with other countries business and backing Isreal we wouldnt be in this mess would we? I dont see anyone attacking the Swiss do you? They are more free than we are. We have become the corporate backing monsters that authors, great leaders and thinkers have warned us about forever.

I dont want to be part of that machine anymore Do you?

Sounds like Pat Buchanan to me.....You sure you're not Republican? The Swiss? LOL, The US is the leader of the world, and just because you people do not like that notion, doesn't make it true. People and countries have always disliked the US simply because we prosper, we're secure, and we're free. Some folks just don't like that. Hell, even our French brothers hate our guts. Whooped-di-do!! Tell you the truth, I really don't give a damn about any of these third world countries that hate us. They could all go get in a big pile together. Would make it much easier to kill them.

Originally posted by mecheng
But its ok to kill hundreds of thousands of their citizens... and for what?

Actually I doubt that the US has killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. The Iraqis may have killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis though. I am not saying that the US hasn't killed non-combatants and I am not saying that innocent people have not been killed by US forces.

Some people seem to think that if the US pulls out of Iraq that all of these factions are going to suddenly become best friends and everything is going to be sweet and rosey. Wake up and get a big dose of reality! If the US were to pull its forces out of Iraq tomorrow it would make the "Rape of Nanking" look like a picnic.

Let's put the facts together. The problems in Iraq right now are alot bigger than just the US having troops there. You have Iran, Syria and several other countries who are adding to this mess. They want the US to pull out so that they can exert their influence in Iraq. Maybe the US shouldn't have invaded Iraq. I wasn't too thrilled with the idea, because I fully expected to end up with the results that we have now.

Originally posted by KnowItAll
COWARDS!

You don't know any of us. I'll fight for what I feel is RIGHT and this war is not right.

Since you are so enamored with this war, perhaps you could tell us how many tours in Iraq you have been on with the military.

[edit on 13-10-2006 by mecheng]

Originally posted by deltaboy
Since you asked kindly, I'll tell you. Make life hell for the foreign terrorists that have enter the country. Keep training Iraqi personnel to the point that they are capable of keeping the country stable in large numbers, which is why insurgents and terrorists are trying to kill as many of them as possible to prevent that. Help Iraq on its feet by providing electricity and other services, also for stability, it also depends on good economic conditions, which is why terrorists and insurgents are attacking the oil pipelines which is the lifeline of Iraq that depends on source of income to keep a country going. And also the political situation where the Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds need to work together to have a strong central govt. to lead the nation. Then when possible, troops can be pulled out.

Thanks, but do you honestly believe any of this will ever happen?