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Do soldiers end up in hell?

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posted on Oct, 8 2006 @ 06:58 AM
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After all, they kill people people for a living, sometimes on a daily basic, does that mean they're going to hell for following the orders of someone else? or does God simply forgive them?

I know they have a choice to join up or not, but sometimes choice is a lot harder then you think, what with kids, having a morgage and bills to pay, someones gotta do it..

Surely there must be religious people serving in the armed forces?

Thanks


[edit on 8-10-2006 by twisted_fate]




posted on Oct, 8 2006 @ 07:28 AM
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I am going to assume your reference here is the modern " Thou shalt not Kill" fable.

As I recall the original translation is " Thou shalt not MURDER. RE: that I must ask how many thousands did Yahweh's old testament chosen murder at his request
just to get a piece of dirt?

You might want to remember also that the military personell you question are the
very ones that protect your right to even ask that question.



posted on Oct, 8 2006 @ 07:53 AM
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So you haven't really answered my question..all you've told me is that I should be grateful for the armed forces for protecting me..

Also, I've never heard the saying "thou shall not kill" - I've always thought it was "thou shall not murder" - Which is exactly what they are doing right...

I'm not asking if it's right or wrong, I'm asking doe God judge them?



posted on Oct, 8 2006 @ 01:41 PM
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Yes, yes they do.

There is no need to kill in this world. Even if it means saving your own life. If you truly believe in the whole heaven and hell thing, dying isn't a bad thing, but killing is. So yes, they burn in hell for sinning against god.



posted on Oct, 8 2006 @ 01:51 PM
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I think going to hell depends on what kind of person you are. King David engaged in many wars with his enemies, and killed many. I fully expect him to be in heaven.

Now I think if you were a person that took great pleasure in killing or mutilating another person without repentance for the act...then yes, I think that person would go to hell. So I think it depends on the person, and what's in their heart.



posted on Oct, 8 2006 @ 01:58 PM
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You assume that soldiers want to go to heaven. I wouldn't want to go to heaven if by confessing and asking for God's forgiveness that God would let a murderous child molester into heaven. As retired military, I would greatly prefer Valhalla to heaven. You are projecting your moral values on people who don't share them. That makes you self righteous.



posted on Oct, 8 2006 @ 02:18 PM
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A question was presented for any and all of us to make comment on. I gave mine.
You didn't comment on the question, but rather you want to critique mine? I don't get it.



posted on Oct, 8 2006 @ 02:26 PM
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Originally posted by crgintx
As retired military, I would greatly prefer Valhalla to heaven.


Why? Do you find it difficult being a civilian and feel out of use by not being on the battlefield? Is your idea of heaven, a constant slug-fest, and a tasty dinner afterwards for all eternity?



posted on Oct, 8 2006 @ 02:43 PM
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Originally posted by MacDonagh
Why? Do you find it difficult being a civilian and feel out of use by not being on the battlefield? Is your idea of heaven, a constant slug-fest, and a tasty dinner afterwards for all eternity?


And why not? To each their own, right? Should everyone have to want the same white, fluffy clouds and angels playing harps while they sit for eternity with relatives they never liked anyways?

In reference to the OP, I think the answer to that is something that is beyond us. Who's to say whether "heaven" even exists, or if it does, in what form? Perhaps there is no heaven by the Judeo/Christian description, and we're all reincarnated. Or perhaps crgintx will get his/her wish and the afterlife is as MacDonagh says. Or perhaps I'll get my wish, and I'll spend eternity shooting pool, getting drunk, and not have a single anti-smoking law to worry about (though I'm not military and have yet to kill someone, so my "wish" is somewhat irrelevant to the topic.)

If you look at what the Bible states in the commandments -- Thou Shalt Not Kill/Murder (I've heard both) -- and take that at face value, then yes, military would go to hell. Of course, so would everyone else who's lied, dishonored their mother or father, cheated on a spouse, or looked at their neighbor's wife/husband with more than just a passing interest. Why pick and choose which commandments are more important than others? Shouldn't they all be taken with the same strength of punishment?

Where do you draw the line on military murder? Is it only with the person who pulls the trigger or throws the grenade, or should it not be passed along up the ranks to all those who put that soldier in that position to begin with? From their immediate CO through up to the president, including everyone who trained that soldier how to fire his/her weapon or pull the pin, wouldn't everyone be involved in that act of killing in some way or another?

I would like to reiterate what I said first though; there's plenty of soldiers out there who do not believe in the Christian religions. Even if it could be determined that yes, as a soldier who commits a battlefield murder, what of those who don't believe in the word of the Bible? What of those like crgintx, who really don't want to go to that form of heaven anyways?



posted on Oct, 8 2006 @ 03:07 PM
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" When I go to Heaven, St peter he will say, how did you earn a living, how did you earn your pay? I reply with a little bit of Thunder, earn my living killing muslims down under! He replies with a smile and nod, did your killing for your country and God!"

No, soldiers don't go to hell - It says you shall not murder. Fighting a war is your way of doing service to your country and its people. that is self sacrifice and warrants a place on that alone... However, if you murder some one (War is not murder it is combat) in a war zone ie they are innocents and you kill them any way ie dragged out of a home a killed in a hole because you are angry at the war... then you have a problem...thats a one way ticket waiting for you.... BUT, forgivenss ask, is forgiveness granted - God and Jesus will know if you are really, really repentant, and that will be up to God and God alone to decide!



posted on Oct, 8 2006 @ 03:27 PM
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Twisted Fate,
Your OP question presupposes that there is such a place as "hell". Hell is literally "death" so in that sense, we all go to hell but if you mean a place of eternal torment then rest assured-no such place. If you need convincing on the topic of "no such place/condition as eternal torment/hell" then you might want to avail yourself of the writings of S.L. Johnson. He has a very good, scriptural treatise on the subject. It's rather lengthy so I'll just bring up one of his points: the wages of sin is death. If the wages of sin were eternal torment then Christ has not yet paid the price for our sins.



posted on Oct, 8 2006 @ 04:37 PM
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Originally by D4rk Kn1ght
War is not murder it is combat


What is the difference between killing someone for politics and killing someone for some other reason? It's very rare that even a cold blooded killer has no reason, and most of the times the killer is entirely justified in their mind (I reiterate: in their mind), whether it's for revenge, anger, even some strange version of self defense.

Does a political backing make killing someone okay? If the US were invaded tomorrow, in an openly declared war, and my family were killed, am I to just sit back and say "Oh, that's alright, it was a war"? Those who lost loved ones fighting on the frontlines during any war should be comforted in the fact knowing their soldier lost their life in a war and not because the person was caught in a convenience store robbery?

Even 'combat' can be stretched by a mind to envelop non-political/national conflicts. I could shoot my neighbor for playing their music too loud, and rationalize it to myself as another battle in a war between them and myself for my right to a peaceful night's sleep.

I'll go with the forgiveness route you spoke of D4rk Kn1ght, but causing the death of another individual is still murder in my book, even in self defense. Some forms of "murder" are just more acceptable to our society than others.



posted on Oct, 8 2006 @ 04:55 PM
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Mcory1,
if your family were fighting, that is combat, and not murder. If your family were in their homes, sheltering from the war, and soldiers ran in and killed them, thats murder not combat.

If you defend yourself from killing force, then thats not murder - but if you killed for no reason that is murder. Your next reasoning was to be frank silly.

"Even 'combat' can be stretched by a mind to envelop non-political/national conflicts. I could shoot my neighbor for playing their music too loud, and rationalize it to myself as another battle in a war between them and myself for my right to a peaceful night's sleep."

No, music is not a killing force, it is annoying, but you killed him to turn off the music. Thats murder even in the most twisted eyes.

As for a political war, well WWII was political was it not? but it was right, hence it came to force of arms to defeat an enemy ie combat.

There is a massive line between murder and a death brought out through combat - and they do happen side by side in war, which doesn't make it right at all. Thats why we developed rules to war, and thats what war crimes tribunals are all about - was it combat or was it murder?



posted on Oct, 8 2006 @ 04:56 PM
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In that case I'm going to Hell.
Not that God would accept my blasphemous tattoo anyway



posted on Oct, 8 2006 @ 05:11 PM
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Okay, the killing-because-of-music was a bad example, but I still don't see how depriving someone of their life is spiritually acceptable just because a president/dictator/monarch tells one to do it, but not acceptable if it's from your own, personal choice.

"Murder" is a legal term for unlawfully killing another human being; in wartime, and state-sanctioned combat scenarios, it is no longer unlawful to kill an enemy combatant, although it would be at virtually any other time. Therefore, technically it is no longer murder in those situations, so a soldier could not be said to be murdering someone.

However, it is the orders of normal person that remove that law, not a higher power. Is that to be interpreted as the word of the Bible should be considered under the circumstances involved? I mean, is there a situation where it would be acceptable to cheat on one's spouse? Under what circumstances would envy not be a deadly sin?

Or should this be construed as a method of empowering political figures? When they say it's alright for us "normal folk" to kill, then everything's kosher and we get to go into the light at the end of the journey? Wouldn't that be taking us back to the days where kings ruled by divine right in a way, where the power of the ruler (elected or otherwise) can grant us spiritual freedom to do as we wish?

The taking of a life is never "okay," and I'd expect myself to burn in Hell (or whatever further punishment awaits after this life) if I were to even kill someone in personal defense, no matter what Earthly justification I had. The only time I can see taking someone else's life to not be punishable by damnation would be if it were an accident, and even then, why didn't I pay better attention to what I was doing? Why didn't I put myself in a different situation to prevent such an accident from happening?



posted on Oct, 8 2006 @ 05:57 PM
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Originally posted by MCory1
The taking of a life is never "okay," and I'd expect myself to burn in Hell (or whatever further punishment awaits after this life) if I were to even kill someone in personal defense, no matter what Earthly justification I had. The only time I can see taking someone else's life to not be punishable by damnation would be if it were an accident, and even then, why didn't I pay better attention to what I was doing? Why didn't I put myself in a different situation to prevent such an accident from happening?


Scenario:
A notorious mugger who has killed several people in his path encounter you outside your home. You somehow manage to get in control, but the situation requires you to kill or severly damage him with say a brick before he claims another victim, you, as he is reaching for his pistol.

You ending his life will save your own, and to some people most importantly the lives of other potential victims, but will also as a result label you as a "killer".

Is it not somehow your duty to prevent him from releasing himself from your grip and continue his rampage?

I'm pretty sure God or whoever you follow would forgive you for your actions if you did.



posted on Oct, 8 2006 @ 06:11 PM
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Originally posted by Panzeroth
I'm pretty sure God or whoever you follow would forgive you for your actions if you did.


God (or whoever) probably would; according to everything I've learned about the Bible, I can be granted forgiveness no matter what my crime may be, as long as I honestly repent and ask for it. The forgiveness aspect makes this argument moot in a way--I could be the most ruthless, cold blooded killer around, and as long as I repent for my sins I'm granted access to heaven. Any soldier who has such concerns needs only repent and they can be guaranteed a peaceful afterlife.

That aside, certain things are worth an eternity of damnation, in my opinion anyways. Even if there wasn't the forgiveness "loophole", I'd still willingly kill to protect my loved ones if there was no other alternative, or to protect myself. If my country were being invaded, I'd gladly take up arms to defend my homeland and those around me. In the example you gave Panzeroth, I'd probably pull the trigger (or bludgeon him to death) with little hesitation or thought to the afterlife, and if I spend eternity in flames, well, at least I'll have some place to light my cigarettes.



posted on Oct, 8 2006 @ 06:15 PM
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Here's my real beef with this whole Judeo-Christian condemnation of soldiers and war. Without a doubt since the 4th century AD these Christians have killed and condemned to hell more people in the name of their God then any other religion simply because they didn't follow their religion. If I don't share your beliefs, I'm damned to hell whether I ever killed anyone or not. Is Gandhi in Hell? How about any of the Tibetan Lamas? I geuss so by your own laws set forth in the Bible, these men of peace are burning in hell because they failed to accept your Savior as theirs. Our Creator will judge you when the time comes . Who are you to say whether God will send them to hell or not?



posted on Oct, 9 2006 @ 08:31 AM
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Simple fact is that it's no person's right to choose whether someone lives or dies. If you believe in God, then you must believe that he put everyone on this earth for a purpose, and taking someone from it is against his will. Therefore, you burn in hell unless he forgives you. And, since he knows that the life on earth is not a big deal anyway, compared to eternity, then he would probably have the same love for both killers.

Personally, I don't believe in hell. I think that when you die, you use lifes experience to build a greater understanding of the world, and eternity. So anyone can kill anyone and suffer no reprocussions, aside from living your next life as a person who is murdered.

But, if you believe in the screwed up Judeo-Christian God.....He is unfair, unrighteous, and will send Hundu soldiers to burn in hell, and send Christian soldiers to live in paradise.

Jerk.



posted on Oct, 9 2006 @ 08:53 AM
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It's all about your motives and intentions. Are you killing someone as a selfish act? I'm sure you can see the difference between shooting someone that found out you stole his money (very selfish and self-serving) and shooting someone that is knowingly attacking your military unit.(For the good of yourself and others around you). Even if you were fighting for a wrong cause, if you truly believe it to be the just cause and have been authorized to do so, it's not murder. You've probably crossed the line if you start killing innocent, un-armed civilians, but attacking other soldiers isn't the same thing as murder.



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