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Do soldiers end up in hell?

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posted on Oct, 9 2006 @ 09:27 AM
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You're right dbates. But that isn't really a Christian believe is it? In the Bhagivad Ghita, Arjuna puts this point to Krishna and asks if killing is right in any case. Wouldn't it be more prudent, for the goodness of one's soul, to just walk away and allow everything to happen.

Krishna replies with something to the effect of acting according to Dharma (honor or fairness) is always right. Knowing that killing even your own family, if it's the right thing to do, is necessary. And that any action taken shouldn't be regretted, because it's all part of Karma, and the natural balance of the universe. In other words, it's not you who is commiting the action directly, but rather karma working through you.

But we're not talking about South Asian spirituality here, we're talking about Black and White, Christian heaven and hell. In that case, you can murder hundreds of innocent people dishonorably, but as long as Christ is your king, you're all good.




posted on Oct, 9 2006 @ 09:28 AM
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Originally posted by twisted_fate
After all, they kill people people for a living, sometimes on a daily basic, does that mean they're going to hell for following the orders of someone else? or does God simply forgive them?

I know they have a choice to join up or not, but sometimes choice is a lot harder then you think, what with kids, having a morgage and bills to pay, someones gotta do it..

Surely there must be religious people serving in the armed forces?

Thanks


[edit on 8-10-2006 by twisted_fate]


Not your fault I am sure but your question is flawed. Your question does not take into account the difference between self-defense and cold blooded murder.

As already stated, God tells us that murder is a sin, in fact Jesus stated to even think wrongly of anyone, to hate them, is a form of murder and you have sinned. When God sent out His people to take the land that He had originally given to them they had to, many times, go to war but this was not murder.

To understand this better lets look at the horrific case of the Amish school shootings. The man that went into that school and started killing those girls was doing so in cold blood. It matter not if he planned it for months or he just snapped and started killing. This would be sin.

Now if a State Trooper had gone into that room and killed the shooter that would not be murder for the Trooper was protecting not only those girls but also himself. It would then be a killing in self-defense, a "righteous killing" and not a sin.

If in a fire fight an American soldier shoots and kills an enemy combatant then this would not be murder but a killing in self-defense. If that same soldier kills family members to cover a crime, of say rape, then he has sinned for their was no need to kill anyone in that instance.



posted on Oct, 9 2006 @ 09:33 AM
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UnrealZA,
Is that stated in the bible, or was that a rule created later on to justify killing?



posted on Oct, 9 2006 @ 10:09 AM
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Is it a Christian belief? You might find this little article interesting. I did a double take when I read this this morning and thought "Hey! That's the very thing being discussed on ATS." So like it or not it's an interesting read.



The Sixth Commandment and PC
One of the oldest pieces of political correctness, still spun today, is the King James Bible translation of sixth of the Ten Commandments as “Thou Shalt Not Kill.” In fact, the correct translation of the passage is “Thou Shalt Not Murder.”

Self-defense is legal under both English Common Law and Judaism – and I suspect Christian Law (otherwise it would not be English Common Law).



posted on Oct, 9 2006 @ 10:26 AM
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So,
First, I volunteer to go to a camp where they teach me the best way to kill. They teach me to jab a man's eyes out, then tear off his testicles. Then they show me how to snipe a man from 50-100 yards. Then they show me how to configure a missile to launch from a very remote location to another location even further away.

Then I go to war, and do exactly what I'm trained to do.

Self defense? Even in an offensive war?

[edit on 9-10-2006 by Rasobasi420]



posted on Oct, 9 2006 @ 11:35 AM
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Self-defense is legal under both English Common Law and Judaism – and I suspect Christian Law (otherwise it would not be English Common Law).

English common law is simply the law that has risen up in england. It has nothing to do with christian theology and isn't bound by it.

Christian 'law' goes far beyond prohibiting killing in self defense, it doesn't even permit attacking (without killing) in self defense. Christ tells people, that if someone walks up to you and punches you right in the face, that you should offer up the other cheek to let them hit it.

IOW, don't even run away, don't even struggle against evil. And why, because in christianity, everything in the here and now is utterly irrelevant to salvation. Let them tear you apart with lions. Don't fight, don't even run, just let it happen, because its not important and being killed is meaningless. The christian fathers even go so far as to tell a runaway slave to return to his master, and go back to slavery, beaususe freedom simply does not matter.



posted on Oct, 9 2006 @ 11:55 AM
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When Fight or Flight takes over, we're all capable of killing, especially if it's to protect our offspring.

Killing is a survival instinct that we get from Apes. Don't BS yourselves.



posted on Oct, 9 2006 @ 12:21 PM
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Killing isn't justified merely because man has the capacity and urge to kill. Man has the instinct to kill in response to attack, but also has the instinct to kill even when not attacked. It, in itself, isn't a justificiation.



posted on Oct, 9 2006 @ 04:09 PM
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This is a bit off topic but since the Kharmic life philosophy has been broached on the thread, I say lets go that route. The deeper truth here lies that almost all life depends on the death of other living things to survive. Pure biological fact. Even if you're a strict vegan, if you don't rip that plant out of the ground and eat it, your corporeal body will die. Every Vegan/Vegetarian should read 'The Secret Life of Plants' by Peter Tompkins and Chris Bird. IMHO Their research puts a very big scientific dent in Vegan philosophy of what qualifies as a sentient being/living creature. We humans are still biological entities at the deepest and most profound levels. The question whether a soldier will go to hell or not because he killed someone is purely human-centered and rhetorical. Once again, I'll state that you are imposing your personal ideals about what is moral upon those people who does not share them.



posted on Oct, 9 2006 @ 04:22 PM
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Originally by dbates
Are you killing someone as a selfish act?


I know I'm just picking at nits here, but I think self preservation is pretty selfish too, albeit not with the same connotation as I know you're going for. If someone's trying to kill me, then I'm going to be selfish and save my own skin.

I still argue that murder is a human created legal term, and basing any eternal punishment (or lack thereof) on it would be giving mankind more spiritual worth than most of us deserve.

It's not murder in most states to kill someone in self defense; fair enough. I believe a while back in Texas (at some point in time at least) it wasn't murder to kill your spouse if you caught them in bed with someone else--crimes of passion and whatnot. It's not murder to kill someone if you're mentally incompetent, something that is fuzzy at best, not to mention when you through "temporary insanity" into the works. These are all acts of killing someone that, based on the laws our legal system governs us with, are not classified as murder, although they're far from mere self preservation.

Throwing the forgiveness aspect out for now, because I feel that makes the whole argument moot, if I blank out because someone just pisses the hell out of me and I kill them, there's a chance I can get the charge of murder dropped. If it's dropped, do I still go to hell, even though my fellow men/women have determined that I'm not a murderer by our legal codes?



posted on Oct, 9 2006 @ 06:12 PM
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Not if its for true good or you repent. It would be like killing a tyrant or killing someone who is an evildoer. I dont think killing a muslim extremist would be good unless they have done something bad like devise a murder plan or help out in an evil organization.



posted on Oct, 9 2006 @ 06:53 PM
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Originally posted by stalkingwolf

You might want to remember also that the military personell you question are the
very ones that protect your right to even ask that question.


the military personnel are only the ones that protect your right to ask that question, if viewed from a perspective where we live in a godless creation.

if there is a god, why would we need military personell to protect our rights?



Do soldiers end up in hell


i am a sergeant, with over 8 years in service, and 7 tours of duty to war zones.

do soldiers end up in hell?

a soldier by the very definition of the word is one who has been through hell.



posted on Oct, 9 2006 @ 08:18 PM
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Originally posted by Rasobasi420
UnrealZA,
Is that stated in the bible, or was that a rule created later on to justify killing?


There are several passages that speak of this topic.

Ex 22:1-3
2 If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed. 3 If the sun has risen on him, there shall be guilt for his bloodshed.
NKJV

The very fact that God gave Israel "judges" to rule over the people and also decide on court cases, which include "homicide", tells us that not all homicide was punishable by death. Thus not all killing was viewed as "wrong".

Deut 17:8
8 "If any case is too difficult for you to decide, between one kind of homicide or another, between one kind of lawsuit or another, and between one kind of assault or another, being cases of dispute in your courts, then you shall arise and go up to the place which the LORD your God chooses.
NASU

The very idea of love, of Gods "agape love", which the Believer is to imitate, is to be sacrificing of self. Who would not protect the life of their loved one by all means, even if that meant killing another? Man had been created in Gods image therefore if one kills another they have then comitted a crime against God and God demands their death by the upholders of the law.



posted on Oct, 9 2006 @ 08:28 PM
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Another important thing to question here is, why are we saying that the soldiers are going to hell, merely because they have killed? But the rest of us are supported by that system of killing, we sit on top of it and live off of it. Even the pacifists in, say, the US are supported by killing. So if the soldiers are going to hell, ain't we all?



posted on Oct, 9 2006 @ 11:09 PM
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The wages of sin is death-not eternal torment. Now what you define as sin is up to your conscience but sin leads to death not a LIFE in some hot house. Whether killing/murder under any circumstances qualifies as a sin will be decided at the judgment but whatever the verdict, a place of eternal torment will not be the punishment.



posted on Oct, 9 2006 @ 11:38 PM
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Originally posted by MCory1

Originally by dbates
Are you killing someone as a selfish act?


I know I'm just picking at nits here, but I think self preservation is pretty selfish too, albeit not with the same connotation as I know you're going for.


Interesting.

"... I think Self Preservation is pretty selfish too ... "

self = self
pre = before
serve = serve


being self before you serve at the very core of your dna is pretty selfish, i would agree.

-------------------------

What is your definition of hell?

hell for some is doing the right thing without fearing, even though everything you know tells you you should be afraid.

now, when you make a decision that puts you in a life threatening scenario, and you are not afraid, what does that mean?

what has one proved to one's self if their actions are justified, they gained nothing, but now go through life knowing they are not afraid, even when they should be?

what would that mean to you?

1) have you ever put yourself into a situation that should cause your death?
2) were you not afraid?
3) was there no chance of gaining anything for yourself?
4) were you aware that you should have been afraid, yet you just kept adding on decisions that endagered your own existance, for the betterment of someone or some ideological intangible?

what would those 4 things put together mean for a person's soul?


i'm interested in hearing some answers to this question.

[edit on 10-10-2006 by Esoteric Teacher]



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 01:22 AM
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did twisted fate (originator of this thread) just start an argument and then leave?



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 03:37 AM
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Originally posted by whitewave
did twisted fate (originator of this thread) just start an argument and then leave?


Sorry, I've been busy at work, I haven't left, I've been reading the replies. It wasn't my intention to start an argument either, I just wanted advise that was all.



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 05:19 AM
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On the same topic, I wonder if "God's Soldiers"( soldiers who claim to kill in the name of God), go to hell? heheheheee.

That means that the jihatist, tempars and the others like them may have to watch out just like the rest of us....whahahaa.

I also wonder if meat eating animals go to hell........

Personally I think the concept of heaven and hell was created to scare human beings into doing what the religions wants them to do.

As long as you act to better mankind, the environment, planet, other lifeforms, etc, etc, and do not create unnessary chaos or destruction.

Here's an idea, what if there was no religion? how will you act? Will you kill for fun, help people who are in need, or just live life as you have always lived?

After all, if there is no punishment or reward in the afterlife.... what will you do? Makes one wonder...... (have sex all the time? whhaahahaaa....procreation is good, creates life.....whhahaaa)



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 05:36 AM
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Everyone is born with sin so It dosn't make a diferance, as long as you admit it, stop, and then beg for forgiveness.

[edit on 10-10-2006 by PisTonZOR]



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