Islam the New Wine? The New Patch?

Originally posted by Nygdan
Again, the koran explicitly forbids forced conversion.

Fight those who do not believe in Allah, ... nor follow the religion of truth... until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection." Qur'an, Sura 9:29

This doesn't say make them convert or kill them. But it looks like anyone who claims to be Muslim won't have to 'pay the tax of subjection' or be treated like dirt in 'acknowledgement of superiority of Islam'.

Convert or be placed in a state of subjection (slavery??).
Dunno. Guess it's open for many interpretations.

This site has some information on when Islamics are not allowed to fight against infidels -
www.juancole.com...

Considering how many verses there are about fighting and killing those who do not believe in Islam, it is very easy to see how some would interpret those verses to 'convert or die'. Unbelievers are animals and cursed by Allah. The believers are called to war against them. Therefore ... if you don't believe in Islam you are a cursed animal and will die in war.

Just as in Chrsitianity, there are many interpretations. To say Islam has a policy of 'convert or die' isn't to much of an interpretation stretch. There are contradictions in the Quran just as there are in the bible. There are quotes calling Islamics to war against unbelievers but also quotes about living in peace.

When the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters whereever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer [become believers] and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them (9:5)

Announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve (9:3)

Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve (8:55)

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah...And the Jews say Ezra is the son of God; and the Christians say Christ is the son of God; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; Allah's curse be on them; how they are turned away!" (Koran 9:29-30)

And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah (8:39)

And if they intend to act unfaithfully towards you, so indeed they acted unfaithfully towards Allah before, but He GAVE YOU MASTERY OVER THEM (8:71)

I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them. This is because they acted adversely to Allah and his messenger; and whoever acts adversely to Allah and his messenger - then surely Allah is severe in requitting (evil). This - taste it, and (know) that for the unbelievers is the punishment of fire. O you who believe! When you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them. And whoever shall turn his back to them on that day - unless he turn aside for the sake of fighting or withdraws to a company - then he, indeed, becomes deserving of Allah's wrath, and his abode is hell; and an evil destination shall it be. So you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy) but it was Allah Who smote, and that He might confer upon the believers a good gift from Himself; (8:12-17)

The punishment of those who pit themselves against Allah and His Messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement, except those who repent before you have them in your power (5:33-34)

What is the matter with you, then, that you have become two parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them return (to unbelief) for what they have earned? Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him. They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved so that you might be all alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly their homes in Allah's way; BUT IF THEY TURN BACK, THEN SEIZE THEM AND KILL THEM WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM, AND TAKE NOT FROM AMONG THEM A FRIEND OR A HELPER. (4:89)

As for those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the punishment (4:56)

Surely they who disbelieve in the communications of Allah - they shall have a severe punishment; and Allah is Mighty, the lord of retribution. (3:4)

Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and whoever says, None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' his life and property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to forgive him.)" (Hadith 4:52:196)

According to some verses in the Quran, there can be no friendship between Islam and anyone of other religions. They will hate us forever unless we convert. of course there are other quotes that say to live in peace with those who have peace treaties .. no matter the religion. Contradictions abound .. just like in the bible. I guess you can pull up whatever you want out of the Quran and make a case for whatever you* want.

*** 'you' ... generic you. Not YOU Nygdan.


"If they find you, they will be your enemies, and will stretch forth towards you their hands and their tongues with evil, and they ardently desire that you may disbelieve. Your relationship would not profit you, nor your children, on the day of resurrection; He will decide between you; and Allah sees what you do. Indeed, there is for you a good example in Abraham and those with him when they said to their people: Surely we are clear of you and of what you serve besides Allah; WE DECLARE OURSELVES TO BE CLEAR OF YOU, AND ENMITY AND HATRED HAVE APPEARED BETWEEN US AND YOU FOREVER UNTIL YOU BELIEVE IN ALLAH ALONE (60:2-4)




[edit on 10/13/2006 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by Nygdan
In case you didn't notice, violence in self defense is still violence. Jesus in the gospel and Allah in the koran are very different, allah advocates violence, but in proper proportion and in defense, Jesus doesn't even recommend that.

It woudl be propaganda to say that killing a person that has attacked you isn't violence. It would also be propaganda to equate people moving into islamic territory and preaching against the religion of islam to be a phyiscal attack upon islam that can be justifiably met with murderous violence.

- Jesus (pbuh) said : "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fullfill them." - Matthew 5:17
So he have condoned and recommended the violence found in the bible .

- Not always Allah advocates violence . The example of Habel in the quran is like Jesus's "if you're hit on your right cheek , turn your left one" :
"If thou dost stretch thy hand against me, to slay me, it is not for me to stretch my hand against thee to slay thee: for I do fear Allah, the cherisher of the worlds. " Quran 5:28

- I was talking on the violence in its negative form , the thing that I missed to clarify . Like you have said , Allah does advocates violence, but in proper proportion and in defense .

Originally posted by Nygdan
Why should anyone bother with this? He's not a prophet, he speaks for himself and his interpretations of things. Its irrelevant.

It is a display of narrations [hadiths] and historical facts about the prophet (pbuh) [sirat] , not his own interpretations .

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Contradictions abound .. just like in the bible. I guess you can pull up whatever you want out of the Quran and make a case for whatever you* want.

The verses you quoted are out of the context .
In quran there is the abrogating (nasikh) and the abrogated (mansukh), the special (khass) and the general ('am), the definite (muhkam) and the ambiguous (mutashabih) . On what basis you concluded that all these verses aren't abrogated , are general and definite ? In plus you ignored one of the first steps in the interpretation that is to define the circumstances of the revelation . That's besides the biggest mistakes to ignore the authentic narrations of the prophet (pbuh) and his progeny (pbuh) that explain these verses .

As I said earlier , to know islam you have to take it by the quran and the authentic narrations , as the quran alone wont suffice , mainly because it holds numerous figures and interpretations .

Originally posted by FlyersFan
This doesn't say make them convert or kill them.

Indeed, it doesn't. Islam sets up system for society, and, not surprisingly, it puts islam in the dominant position. It also requires that muslims not try to exterminate other religions, that it learns to live with them. Thats a relatively peaceful and progressive position, for any religion, especially one of the big 'propagandistic' ones.

But it looks like anyone who claims to be Muslim won't have to 'pay the tax of subjection' or be treated like dirt in 'acknowledgement of superiority of Islam'.

Yes, and?

Convert or be placed in a state of subjection (slavery??).
Dunno. Guess it's open for many interpretations.

So we've gone from 'muslims must murder all non-muslims in the world' to 'non-muslims living in islamic societies are expected to pay a tax to the state'.
Thats a pretty big jump.
Also, muslims are required to pay charitable 'taxes' to society, the tax on non-muslims is essentially collecting that.
Also, how is paying a tax a state of slavery? Thats exagerating quite a bit. Its perfectly reasonable for a group that is running a country to expect people to pay taxes or serve in the military. From the muslims, they can expect military support and financial support beceause its required in the religion, and from the non-muslims, they simply put up a tax.

it is very easy to see how some would interpret those verses to 'convert or die'.

Sure, its easy to see how people can get that impression. Heck, i am not saying that 'convert or die' doesn't happen either. Islam spread through violence, like every other religion. But to say that its fundamentally violent is inaccurate. To say that the koran requires muslims to destroy all nonbeleivers is inaccurate. And to say that islam is an especially, or a notably, violent religion in practice, is also wrong.

The believers are called to war against them. Therefore ... if you don't believe in Islam you are a cursed animal and will die in war.

The website that you cite shows precisely the opposite.

To say Islam has a policy of 'convert or die' isn't to much of an interpretation stretch.

Thats like saying that jesus was a mass murderer and pedophile, because there's been so much murder and pedophilia from the christians.
Its nonsense. The Koran has been disobeyed by charlatans and manipulators from within the islamic community, in order to advance their own schemes. There are also people who manipulate the message less obviously, who justify things like 911, for example, because the US is seen as a group that is invading islamic territory and trying to destroy them, so to those people, it was a counter-attack, whereas those of us in reality recognize it as unjustifiable mass murder. Thats an example of people interpreting the holy book to fit their purposes, not an example of people reasonably following the straightforward dictates of the holy book (which, again, requires no forced conversions, and that people not just haul off and wipe out civilians).

According to some verses in the Quran, there can be no friendship between Islam and anyone of other religions. They will hate us forever unless we convert.

It doesn't say to hate nonbeleivers.
Muslims beleive that god revealed a final perfected form of godly worship in the form of the koran.
Of course they're going to consider it their duty, in the name of anything good, to spread that 'message'. Its a missionary religion. At the same time, they are required, by the book, to not kill people merely because they are nonbeleivers, to peacefully convert nonbeleivers, and to treat their peacebly even when they are living within the islamic territory.
Compare that to the christians, who annhiliated all non-christian religions they came upon.

I guess you can pull up whatever you want out of the Quran and make a case for whatever you* want.

Like any so called holy book, the koran can be made to say things that it doesn't.
Look, for example, at how the protestants cite the bible as supporting anti-catholic positions.
Just like that, some within the islamic community are able to use their holy book to manipulate people into violence, because man is violent. The koran attempts to restrain that violence, it commands them not to force conversions, to be restrained in warfare, to be civil to non-muslims, and even says that non-muslims, like the christians, jews, zoroastrians, etc, will go to heaven! Thats an extremely moderate religion. Even the pacifistic message of jesus and buddha doesn't go that far, they state that only their followers get to heaven and nirvana, mohammed is saying lots of people do.
So mohammed wasn't a pacifist, yes. He recognized that there'd be struggles between peoples, and the religion that he set out dictates how to behave in those struggles, urging peace and civility and society. Jesus was a pacifist who said to turn the other cheek if someone punches you.
In actual practice, christianity and islam haven't lived up at all to the commandments of their founders, they've both been wildly savage and brutal. And when you look at it overall, you can see that christianity has been the most violent and brutal, not islam.

It is a display of narrations [hadiths] and historical facts about the prophet (pbuh) [sirat] , not his own interpretations .

And where did he magically get these facts?
These are events that happened over a thousand years ago, and that have been collected as religious texts, they are interpretation, not facts.

Originally posted by Nygdan
And where did he magically get these facts?
These are events that happened over a thousand years ago, and that have been collected as religious texts, they are interpretation, not facts.

A narration of an event isn't and doesn't tranform with time to somebody's interpretation when it is authentic .

Originally posted by AnarShia
A narration of an event isn't and doesn't tranform with time to somebody's interpretation when it is authentic .

Quran is full of errors.Badly copied parts of the Bible Quran is replete with scientific heresies, historic blunders, mathematical mistakes, logical absurdities, grammatical errors and ethical fallacies. It is badly compiled and it contradicts itself.

This site says that Allah was a moon god, what do you think?

www.faithfreedom.org...

Originally posted by AnarShia
A narration of an event isn't and doesn't tranform with time to somebody's interpretation when it is authentic .

That, of course, is the problem, 'when its authentic'. Who is to know if the things recorded in the hadith are accurate at all, or in the koran for that matter. There was ample time for the other players involved with mohammed's movement to have asserted control, alterted the koran, rejected some hadiths, legitimatized others, etc.

ersatz
Quran is full of errors.

We've already established that its a holy book. Like any holy book, it has errors. The christian gospels can't even get the details of hte ressurection correct. And one of them was written by a guy who never even met jesus, he just fell off his donkey and started writting about it all.

This site says that Allah was a moon god, what do you think?

The charge is assinine. The moon god was big for some of the pre-islamic pagan arabs. Mohammed came aroudn and said 'this is monotheism, your idols and pagan gods are false'. Saying allah is the moon god is like saying jesus is 'nothing more than tammuz.

I have read quite a bit of the Quran now, and I actually sympathize with them... I am angry and most of the same things they are.... but I suppose I took the previous messengers (Christ) words to heart and don't need to resort to violence to 'avenge' ... or do what God wants... (because apparently this amazing 'GOD' everyone talks about needs and wants... ??? ) ... anyhow..

IMO Muslims are just as ignorant to God as the Jews and Christians.. although I agree we can't enter into 'heaven' with our flesh as it is.... or rather we can't obtain 'it' or .. 'see' God if we think all we are is a pile of flesh.. lol

Nygdan mate, amazing discussions. Kudos!