Why SETI Could be Pointless

Originally posted by Sophismata

Originally posted by GhostITM
As Sophismata has tried to explain, there is no "central authority" which is SETI. .....So, you can see what the astronomers face. It's a monumental task, and one which will take many lifetimes to fulfill...... if it ever really ends.
The only way for sure to know, is to go out there and look for them first hand, and we will achieve that soon enough.

Thanks for the voice of reason, GhostITM! I am participating in SETI@home as we speak and doing what I can to find those aliens. I encourage anyone else who's interested in this subject to download the software. Meantime, all we can do is wait...

Seth Shostak seems to think they'll find something within the next 20 or so years. By that time, Jill Tarter will be in her 70's, Frank Drake will be somewhere around 90, Seth himself will be in his 60's but still young enough to enjoy that champaign they have on ice..... Drake will die of a heart attack, Tarter of a stroke, poor Shostak will get blotto on the champa's and they'll blame first contact on Tarter's faulty hearing aide!!!!!

Nobody in their right mind would use radio as a form of communication across space. Its too slow. Quantum entanglement would be a better option and it is a real phenomenon (google it).

The only way SETI would find a signal is if the aliens were broadcasting it INTENTIONALLY, and I find this hard to believe. Why would you want to reveal your existence and location to anybody and everybody in the universe. Who knows who could hear it and what they would do. Only beings as stupid as humans would allow radio pollution to spread across space for any long period of time. Its too dangerous.

If the aliens wanted to contact us specifically, they would find us, not broadcast a universal signal. You never know what might respond!

But if we assume a civilization similar to ours, since we use radio signals for around 100 years, isn't it possible to pick those radio signals? At least for now, the Earth resembles a radio beckon...

Originally posted by Toasty
Nobody in their right mind would use radio as a form of communication across space. Its too slow. Quantum entanglement would be a better option and it is a real phenomenon (google it).

Yes, Google it. You'll find that quantum entanglement CANNOT be used to transmit information, only random bits. This is a fundamental point that is usually missed, and it is NOT an engineering problem to be overcome, but something fundamental within physics that - were it broken - would introduce paradoxes.

We're looking for radio because it's something that actually would work. Whether it's the be-all-end-all or not, we don't know, but it's a start.

Hi there. SETI is pointless. A sideshow against the truth -- Light Beam transmission; not affected by electromagnetism. SETTI's Shostak or whatever the head falsifier's name is said they would introduce Light Beam signal recording years ago -- well?, where is it? Only Shostak knows for sure

Dallas

Originally posted by Sophismata

Originally posted by Toasty
Nobody in their right mind would use radio as a form of communication across space. Its too slow. Quantum entanglement would be a better option and it is a real phenomenon (google it).

Yes, Google it. You'll find that quantum entanglement CANNOT be used to transmit information, only random bits. This is a fundamental point that is usually missed, and it is NOT an engineering problem to be overcome, but something fundamental within physics that - were it broken - would introduce paradoxes.

We're looking for radio because it's something that actually would work. Whether it's the be-all-end-all or not, we don't know, but it's a start.

We'll see where an understanding of nonlocality in the future may take us, but for now we can't really use it.

As for radio....... you can only use what you've got. If it's radio, then you use that. If a vast majority of the aliens are using something better, well then that's our problem.

Like some primitive tribe in PNG trying to communicate with us using bongo drums.

At least, like Sophismata has said, it's a start.

So despite my frustration on the subject of contacting or hear LIVE aliens, at least SETI could prove that someone out there, at some time did exist and did use our form of communication but, the chances are SO MINUTE, it will probably never happen in our life times, in fact aliens will probably contact US before SETI hears anything.

I'll admit, the chances of SETI detecting a signal are pretty slim in none, but even one person wins the lotto, so the odds shouldn't invalidate the premise.

Most people don't understand WHY SETI would have difficulty picking up a signal. For those who haven't really looked into it, here's the deal.

The signals used by the aliens would have to be something similar to the wavelengths we are looking for. Even if they aren't currently using this means, as long as they used in the past, we're ok. Got it? Good...it just gets worse from here.

Time is the real enemy here, as well as distance. Let's say, for the sake of argument, alien A used radio waves for 200 years, and did so about 5000 years ago. Let's say it takes the waves 5500 years to get to earth. Even though alien A used them millenia ago, they are STILL on the way here! (and of course, we won't detect them yet). The converse is also true. Let's say it takes the waves 3000 years to get here. They were then here and gone WAY before we even started looking for them.

This is the root of the problem faced by SETI. It's like looking for a particular needle in a stack of a million needles, out of a field of many such stacks.

Why would you want to reveal your existence and location to anybody and everybody in the universe. Who knows who could hear it and what they would do. Only beings as stupid as humans would allow radio pollution to spread across space for any long period of time. Its too dangerous.

Or put a map of how to get here, etc. out there right? There's plenty of idiots on Earth, probably are in the Universe too, hehe.... Chances are, even advanced beings weren't always the sharpest crayons in the box...

[edit on 14-9-2006 by Gazrok]

Great Points Gazrok. Light Wavelength if Corso was accurate as to what they use to move info/signals between their Ship's components. Not effected by, the almost always reported electromagnetic feeling in the air (hair on end/ Vehicle ignition sys failure, etc..), fibre optic technology travels without interference within an EMN environment. It's light weight too.

Dallas

Originally posted by Dallas
Light Beam transmission; not affected by electromagnetism. SETTI's Shostak or whatever the head falsifier's name is said they would introduce Light Beam signal recording years ago -- well?, where is it? Only Shostak knows for sure

Wrong on so many counts, Dallas. There ARE SETI projects going on right now using optical detection (for laser pulses). Second, Shostak is not a falsifier. Third, light IS electromagnetism, just of a different frequency from the microwave kind that MOST current SETI projects are using.

Just clearing up the facts, folks.

Originally posted by Sophismata

Originally posted by Dallas
Light Beam transmission; not affected by electromagnetism. SETTI's Shostak or whatever the head falsifier's name is said they would introduce Light Beam signal recording years ago -- well?, where is it? Only Shostak knows for sure

Wrong on so many counts, Dallas. There ARE SETI projects going on right now using optical detection (for laser pulses). Second, Shostak is not a falsifier. Third, light IS electromagnetism, just of a different frequency from the microwave kind that MOST current SETI projects are using.

Just clearing up the facts, folks.

You make accusations but provide 0 proof. Where is the SETI project with verifiable proof of light pulse wave research? Heard it was going to be done by what's his name.. but have not seen or read any evidence it was set up and measured.

Einstein mentioned that light is affected by gravity (after a zillion miles) not 100 feet or so.

SETIs present bull after being quashed, so far as original congressional funding has become the Shostak joke. He likes being on TV and through the years has made a couple dozen documentaries, last time telling the world how Chupacabras are in the minds of Puerto Riccans, after their Rabbits and Goats had all blood sucked out of their bodys. Leaving 1/2 - 3/4" inch holes in their chests or into the throat arteries.

Please provide your facts to the contrary. As for Shostak he should have been tossed 20 documentaries ago.

Dallas

Originally posted by Sophismata
Yes, Google it. You'll find that quantum entanglement CANNOT be used to transmit information, only random bits.

Not really. There is a possibility that it can be used for information trasmission. Scientists have recently found a way to measure and control the spin of a particle...that is a real first step towards instant communication. Perhaps there is a 'string' that connects those two entangled particles that can be used not only for transmitting information, but also for travelling.

Regarding SETI, we have been using Radio signals for about 100 years...we have been listening for alien Radio signals for about 15 years. In order to catch a signal, there should be another civilization out there that is IN THE EXACT SAME LEVEL OF TECHNOLOGICAL DEVELOPMENT as we are. This is so unlikely, that it is almost impropable.

If quantum communication exists and it takes 200 years to go from no electricity to quantum technology for a civilisation, then the propability of two civilisations listening for radio signals at the same relative time is practically 0. And I am saying this taking into account the vast distances radio signals have to travel (hence the use of the word 'relative').

Originally posted by rizla

Originally posted by Wirral Bagpuss
They are out there all right.

Never mind gut feelings. Look at the data that's been collected over the last 10-20 years.

1. No super race is broadcasting an obvious beacon that we can hear
2. Earth type systems are rare. No other one has been found.

That doesn't mean they don't exist, but scientists are coming to the gloomy conclusion intelligence in the universe is rarer than we previously assumed. Of course, not all the data's in yet, but it's not looking great.

Oh dear! It is human arrogance to suggest that we are alone in the universe. Of course ailens are out there. It's a question of whether they use the same mode of communication as us or not. That's what this thread is all about. And as to the assertion that Earth type systems are rare it does not mean that none exist other than our own. It just means that we don't have the technology yet to detect them. Look, 50 years ago mainstream scientists were laughing at the notion of other planets being found, now in the last 10 years we have found quite a few planets. I reckon in the 50 years if not sooner we will find Earth type systems, and as to finding ET we don't really know what form it will take. To coin a well loved phrase:

"It's Life Jim But Not As We Know It"

SETI lost all favor with me when the first reasonably credible amateur videos (actually, when the first good photographs came out) were available to a large viewership. What the hell had SETI been up to that someone standing on their front lawn could capture what millions of dollars and years of intense research could not?

Anyone interested in this subject in the least isn't following SETI anymore. They're a joke. And at this point I see them as another over-funded project, yeilding no results. None. After the amount of time something like that has been in operation you have to consider the project's efficacy and usefulness.

After years of attempting and failing to produce any results - at all, to elicit a response from space, to pick up a "good" signal, or to produce anything evidenciary of an extraterrestrial civilization you have to consider the law of diminishing returns. If, however, SETI has credible and persuasive data that shows that they have received communications from an extraterrestrial race, then what good is that? It's obviously being suppressed. Besides, the Internet has that in spades to anyone with eyeballs in their head.

I read SETI's "Statement of Purpose". To paraphrase it says that its purpose, roughly, is to explore life in the universe and to explain what it finds. Explain to whom? It also includes the terms "education" and "public outreach". Those terms can be so broadly interpreted that they virtually lose all meaning.

At the top of the list of their supporters are NASA and the Dept. of Energy. We know how accountable those organizations are to the public...Unfortunately, when you're dealing with subjects and information that affect the human race, you need the United States government's permission to share that information. So there's a possibility that SETI doesn't want to be a bad boy and do that, especially when NASA is floating the check. Organizations, like people, have a strong sense of self-preservation, and that will clearly supersede their original seemingly noble purpose...

If SETI has found anything, that information has gone to its shareholders. You can reasonably rest assured that information is being withheld from all but the most priveleged, and that information will most likely never make it out into the public domain.

We don't need SETI anyway. We have video and still cameras, tape recorders, and the Internet. We've also been endowed with reason and discernment. I've seen more in 5 minutes on the Internet than anyone at SETI could hope to show me. And it's still coming fast and furious. Sorry SETI. Actually, I'll apologize to the financial benefactors. And if any benefactors are reading this, for a mere $5.00 a day, I will stand on my back yard and shoot my video camera in the direction of "up" and promise to show you something you've never seen before (it's quite sophisticated)

I would, in fact, encourage more people to use the gifts that the universe has bestowed upon you (i.e., your eyes and ears) and turn your head in a slightly northerly direction on occasion. Unfortunately, SETI cannot put you on the payroll, but you will at some point stumble into quite by accident what millions of dollars and years' of research has not proffered the intrepid misdirection knows as SETI...maybe you could ask for a little money...

The unfortunate truth is that there is no one living now who will ever bear witness to our government's admission of life beyond (or in) this planet. You will have to discover this yourself, as one little, single, solitary, lonely human being. This information equates to freedom. It's a revelation that you are a cosmic being, bound by no government, group, or individual. Free. Imagine. We could use some help though, from the other side, if they could just swing that saucer a little closer so I could get it with my video camera...In fact, I don't even need to tape it. I just need to know, for myself, that there's someone off this planet who knows how I feel

[edit on 14-9-2006 by OnTheDeck]

Regarding SETI, we have been using Radio signals for about 100 years...we have been listening for alien Radio signals for about 15 years. In order to catch a signal, there should be another civilization out there that is IN THE EXACT SAME LEVEL OF TECHNOLOGICAL DEVELOPMENT as we are. This is so unlikely, that it is almost impropable

As I mentioned, it's even worse than that. They'd have to have been at that level at a time where those signals were transmitted as long ago as they'd take to arrive RIGHT NOW. That's like hitting a specific leg hair off a fly buzzing around at 100 yards, with a bazooka.

It's slim odds folks, but as far as diminishing returns...if there is ever just ONE good solid signal that stands up to all scrutiny, then man, it'd be all worth it. With the amount of amateurs involved in SETI, it'd be pretty difficult to keep it a secret if we found something....

I know most UFOlogists cringe at SETI (thinking hell, if they're here, why bother?), but the bottom line is that SETI offers us a way of scientifically verifying et intelligence that is largely undeniably real, and I certainly wouldn't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater on that one....

Originally posted by Dallas
You make accusations but provide 0 proof. Where is the SETI project with verifiable proof of light pulse wave research?

SETI optical projects currently functioning (that I know about - there may be others): harvard oseti
Also, the Lick Observatory here

All the scientists involved in various SETI projects are aware of the fact that aliens might use pulsed light instead of microwave signals. We're trying to cover our bases here.

Really, I grow weary of the general lack of knowledge about this when a simple Google search would have turned up these sorts of projects. Instead, you choose to live in your world of conspiracy, untouched by facts. Stop wasting my time and everyone else's. If you want to discuss whether SETI is likely to find anything, or whether they're doing things in a smart way to find aliens - now THAT's where reasonable people can disagree. This business about SETI being some monolithic conspiracy is absolute garbage and isn't even interesting.

Shostak joke. He likes being on TV and through the years has made a couple dozen documentaries, last time telling the world how Chupacabras are in the minds of Puerto Riccans, after their Rabbits and Goats had all blood sucked out of their bodys. Leaving 1/2 - 3/4" inch holes in their chests or into the throat arteries.

I see that I AM in fact wasting my time.

Really, I grow weary of the general lack of knowledge about this when a simple Google search would have turned up these sorts of projects. Instead, you choose to live in your world of conspiracy, untouched by facts. Stop wasting my time and everyone else's. If you want to discuss whether SETI is likely to find anything, or whether they're doing things in a smart way to find aliens - now THAT's where reasonable people can disagree. This business about SETI being some monolithic conspiracy is absolute garbage and isn't even interesting.

This IS a conspiracy site, and this post doesn't belong to you. Either way people can post what ever they like, as long as it abides by the rules. If reading their replies counts as wasting your time then what the hell are you doing reading them? If you want to talk scientific facts, join a thread in the Science and Tech or Space forums. Hell, there is even a forum dedicated to SETI itself. If your looking to discuss the scientific technicalities of SETI while brushing away hypothetical conspiracy possibilities, then I'm sorry to say, but your wasting your own time here. This is called ATS you know.

Originally posted by Toasty
This IS a conspiracy site...

Well, I suppose what bothers me the most isn't that conspiracies are discussed (as you say - this is a conspiracy site) but that facts are ignored. Isn't "deny ignorance" the tagline for this site? Isn't it?

So, if we're going to deny ignorance, we should not coddle folks who simply ignore readily obtainable facts, like the fact that SETI is not a single entity, is not controlled by the government, and IS doing the very experiments that Dallas was wishing they would do (the optical ones).

Beyond that, once the *facts* are established, then by all means lets theorize about why they haven't found aliens. I'm curious about that myself.

Well, I suppose what bothers me the most isn't that conspiracies are discussed (as you say - this is a conspiracy site) but that facts are ignored. Isn't "deny ignorance" the tagline for this site? Isn't it?

Totally agree with you on that. And that's the beauty of this site. Its a place for discussion of conspiracies, while trying to deny ignorance. Its almost a "catch 22" situation, where most people sit on one side of the fence or another. Rarely do we see evidence of a conspiracy that is backed up by factual proof.

So, if we're going to deny ignorance, we should not coddle folks who simply ignore readily obtainable facts, like the fact that SETI is not a single entity, is not controlled by the government, and IS doing the very experiments that Dallas was wishing they would do (the optical ones).

No, we shouldn't "coddle" them. If you know of a fact, and someone is disagreeing with you about it, point them in the right direction with evidence. Deny ignorance buy teaching, do not shun those who possess it. (I find ignorance to be a very harsh word, most time people are just unknowing of the facts.)

Beyond that, once the *facts* are established, then by all means lets theorize about why they haven't found aliens. I'm curious about that myself.

Totally, we need to eliminate all the possibilities and come to the most probable conclusion. I think I'm in the same boat as you in that I agree that there must be alien life out there, but until we have hard evidence we can only assume. SETI at the moment is our best bet, but so far has provided us with nothing. As people have already stated, the possible reason for this is that they just don't use radio (or that there is no-one out there).



[edit on 14-9-2006 by Toasty]

Toasty, if you also read what I have posted earlier in this thread, another reason is the simple fact that they've really had hardly any telescope time at all over the years, hardly spend more than a few seconds per target each time, and have so many targets to go through it's not funny.

Not only that, they've narrowed their target database down to those juicy ones within 100 light years. Hardly representative at all.

Where Are They?

A good article from Scientific American.