World Opinion, and why America shouldn't care about it.

I can't help but notice the amount of ATS posts concerning what the world thinks about America. It also appears quite frequently in the media outlets of every stripe.

Of course, America (and Isreal) are the bad guys, and the cause of every bad thing going on both here and abroad. I say that we shouldn't care, especially when one looks back to fairly recent history, and compare "World Opinion" then, and now.

Like him or not Dennis Prager is a very intelligent guy, and shoots straight from the hip about things he has concerns about, in either party.

Posted: August 1, 2006 © 2006
"If you are ever morally confused about a major world issue, here is a rule that is almost never violated: Whenever you hear that "world opinion" holds a view, assume it is morally wrong."
"World opinion" has little or nothing to say about the world's greatest evils and regularly condemns those who fight evil.

"The history of "world opinion" regarding the greatest mass murders and cruelties on the planet is one of relentless apathy:

Ask the 1.5 million Armenians massacred by the Ottoman Turks;

or the 6 million Ukrainians slaughtered by Stalin;

or the tens of millions of other Soviet citizens killed by Stalin's Soviet Union;

or the 6 million Jews murdered by the Nazis and their helpers throughout Europe;

or the 60 million Chinese butchered by Mao;

or the 2 million Cambodians murdered by Pol Pot;

or the millions killed and enslaved in Sudan;

or the Tutsis murdered in Rwanda's genocide;

or the millions starved to death and enslaved in North Korea;

The above is a partial list, and continues in the rest of the story, which can be found here: [link] www.worldnetdaily.com...

Read and compare that list to the Goals of America: the War On Terror; trying to spread the ideas and ideals of individual liberty and freedom, etc.



[edit on 24-8-2006 by zappafan1]

America is hated because it does things like sell weapons to Israel in spite of the fact they violate some very basic rules of war (not to mention other things). I still can't get my head round why they repeatedly bombed power stations and terrorist? civilian airlines? And why America was right (let alone wise) not to condemn them. Nearly the whole of the Middle East hates America for backing Israel and has done so for decades. Supportive countries like Saudi Arabia are hardly representative of the people.

If your argument is "America is right and therefore the global public is wrong to disagree" then that's just a point of view."
In my point of view I believe it’s morally wrong for Americans to ignore the concerns of their fellow human beings as long as Americans are members of the human race (with soles) who exercise a military influence over others.
This is particularly so if America is exercising it to fight terrorism. I mean is every idea in every suicide bomber completely wrong?
Personally I think the world has some very legitimate reasons to be angry at America and if that wasn’t so why do so many Americans agree?

And they agree in spite of a naturally patriotic press, and the creation of labels like "Islamo-facism" which are about as healthy for human analysis-thinking as other words like "'n-word'"

If Americans should stop caring about what others think; or if the world is completely crazy to have a disagreeable opinion on Republican and Democratic foreign policy; as well as its news corporation (share holder inspired) agenda; then I'll agree with the title of this thread. Till then Americans should use global opinion as a damn good indication of ether what is not being reported, or (like in Lebanon) they'll never have to witness (themselves).
Like it or not there were once times when America scored well in these sorts of polls. Today those times are evermore in the past. Why can’t Americas ask “why is that?” According to thread title they shouldn’t ask. How does this aid America’s greatness?

P.S The list just shows that there have been times when the public has been uniformed or as with Stalin’s concentrations camps helpless. Hence the list seems to show atrocities only happen when one way or another global opinion is helpless (or would Dennis Prager suggest a nuclear war against the Soviet Union to help them?).
He uses the list in a propagandas way by calling inaction apathy rather than inaction (the result of a different historical reason for each of them).
The things on that list have always been hated whenever the global public thinks of them. Hence the list speaks in favour of global opinion rather than against it.


[edit on 090705 by Liberal1984]

I mean is every idea in every suicide bomber completely wrong?

YES, It is ridiculous to think otherwise.

Personally I think the world has some very legitimate reasons to be angry at America and if that wasn’t so why do so many Americans agree?

What percentage agree with THIS?

And they agree in spite of a naturally patriotic press, and the creation of labels like "Islamo-facism"

All they have to do is stop acting like Fascist's.

Why can’t Americas ask “why is that?” According to thread title they shouldn’t ask. How does this aid America’s greatness?

Perhaps if we repealed the bill of rights it would appease them, then they would be our friends.

The things on that list have always been hated whenever the global public thinks of them. Hence the list speaks in favour of global opinion rather than against it.

They didn't think about those people being killed?
What tha??????

Everyone wants to appease the Muslims because they have a fear of reprisal. This is due mainly to a segment of the Islamic People that hold violence to be an end to a means. Not violence perpetrated by one country against another, no, that is too "normal." Their violence is that done against Women, Children and their own people. They do not care whether you agree or not, as long as you capitulate.

Semper

America is hated because it does things like sell weapons to Israel in spite of the fact they violate some very basic rules of war (not to mention other things).

REPLY: I see you have menyioned nothing of all the UN resoulutions that Lebanon and Hezbollah have ignored over the years.

I still can't get my head round why they repeatedly bombed power stations and terrorist? civilian airlines?

REPLY: Then you didn't keep up with what was going on during the entire operation.

If your argument is "America is right and therefore the global public is wrong to disagree" then that's just a point of view."

REPLY: "World Opinion" is a point of view that has been wrong for over 100 years, as the article points out very clearly. "World Opinion" is basically Liberal, and Liberalism ALWAYS generates the exact opposite of it's stated intent.

I mean is every idea in every suicide bomber completely wrong?

REPLY: Ummmm ..... pretty much, yeah.

You seem to forget that except for Brittain, America has no true allies. We've been hated for all the great things we've done in less than 200 years. Heck.... some families in France go back farther than that, and they've done pretty much nothing in the past 100 years. About the only war they won was when they fought themselves.

....and the creation of labels like "Islamo-facism" which are about as healthy for human analysis-thinking as other words like "'n-word'"

REPLY: What a stretch THAT is, and very incongruous. The "N" word is a slur, while the other is very descriptive and accurate.

He (Prager) uses the list in a propagandas way

REPLY: Propaganda is truth, the opposite of mis-information/dis-information. In your opinion, any factual information to back up ones views is propaganda.

America does wrong and right. There is no America is good or America is bad, Just like every other country. It is just that the effects of America tend to stick out more than other countries.

one importance of world opinion is it lets you know who your friends and enemies are. the us could be attacked... if the middle east( iran, syria, iraq), n korea, russia..maybe china ever attacked, i would want to have many allies to help. i believe foreign policy is important.

Well that is all well and good, but if the past is any indicator, we can NEVER truly rely on any other government except ourselves and possibly GB and the Aussies. (Major powers that is)

I don't think anyone would argue that foreign policy is not important, it is the level of importance we apply to it that matters here.

Also remember that countries tend to "get behind" the big dog. With our technology and resources we are definitely the big dogs and may not need as much help as you may imagine.

People say we are stressed over our commitment in Iraq. Remember propaganda, we have 135K combat troops out of over a Million, committed to Iraq. I hardly call that stressed.

Semper

Not to care about what others think of us would be completely counter to all human inclinations. Human beings are gregarious, intelligent animals that very much prefer the company of their own kind. Test after test after test has shown that humans will generally try harder to assist others than they will to help themselves. The governments of men are no different, nor can they be, because they are formed by and of mankind. To be rejected by the herd is tantamount to a death sentence and no amount of begging, pleading, or arguing will change that simple fact. Therefore, humans court favorable opinions of themselves in others. If for no other reason than to assure themselves they have not and are not being rejected. World opinion is therefore important to the future of the country and cannot so easily be discounted.

You may argue otherwise on a purely logical level and get many to agree with your arguments, but we ain't talking logic here. The primal urges and instincts of humans will be expressed throughout our organizations and institutions and they will be pretty much satisfied by them or those organizations and institutions will cease to exist.

[edit on 27-8-2006 by Astronomer70]

Ok semperfortis you think its “ridiculous” not to think “every idea in every suicide bomber is completely wrong”
1. So in Iraq when a suicide bomber thinks “if I kill ten Americans today; then I’ll help pile on the pressure for the Americans to withdrew” that’s wrong is? Maybe you think George Bush would be under just as much pressure to withdraw from Iraq; and would be in an equally strong position if zero Americans had died in Iraq?
2. When a suicide bomber thinks “I hate Israel because back in 1948 the U.N awarded 6% of the landowning population 54% of Palestine’s land politics.abovetopsecret.com...
And I hate America because in name of freedom 7000 Iraq’s died in the anarchy unleashed in Baghdad alone, in July 2006 alone.
America has contaminated the lands of Afghanistan and Iraq with depleted uranium, they supply weapons and money to Israel; and during the war with Lebanon there only response to arms sales was to accelerate them.
Because if it wasn’t for America’s support Israel would almost certainly not exist; and may even have never existed.

Is that wrong? Maybe they don’t really know they hate America? Maybe the points I’ve listed are a deluded fiction (please explain how)?

3. If someone thinks that they were better of under Saddam is that wrong? That they would rather live under holy state than a western democratic one; is that wrong? I think this last sort are opinions; and I agree with the first one as under Saddam Iraqis were both richer (particularly before U.N sanctions) and more secure (including during sanctions).

Zappafan1

I see you have menyioned nothing of all the UN resoulutions that Lebanon and Hezbollah have ignored over the years.

I was trying to stick to the topic; but now you mention it here is a list of U.N resolutions Israel is in violation of www.action-for-un-renewal.org.uk...
There’s so many I literally couldn’t count them!!!

With Israel ignoring the U.N more than Hezbollah ever could (they’ve only done it once or twice); and with Israel’s death ratio being 1 to ten; I don’t think Israel has much of a leg to stand on when it comes to ether pointing the blame on those in violation of the U.N; or the rules of war (which Israel with a first rate military shouldn’t really violate unlike a tatty guerrilla army; armed with mostly World War Two era katusa rockets).
Israel has fallen below Hezbollah’s standard on that one; in fact there worse because given the situation with any other civilised nation you would have thought Hezbollah would have ended up with the highest death ratio on its hands.

Back to the Subject
America can ignore world opinion if it wants to but because Ignorance is not Strength it will be no stronger for doing so. It can pretend that only its opinions are the right ones and everyone else is deluded; and by so doing it will go the way of the worst terrorists (deluded).
America can ignore world opinion if it wants and wonder why (if there is a hell) so many of its citizens go to it. To walk over the opinions of others is to behave like a empire-dictator; isn’t that what they do?
Perhaps America will grow stronger? But since when have nations done this through ignorance? If America does something others feel to be wrong, it better no, because others change the world two. It’s only took one man to be Osma Bin Laden; or for that matter Adolf Hitler. And if you don’t see where their crowd is coming from; then you will have more of them.

semperfortis
You say everyone wants to appease Muslims because they are afraid of Muslim reprisals. If that’s true there is at least one person who isn’t and that person is me.
I couldn’t really fear terrorist attacks less because I know there are other forms of death like car accidents-lightening storms.

I'm scared of the politics of war-terrorism; the way people unite around their leaders whenever they reckon they’re under threat (both George and Tony saw there poll ratings surge immediately after terrorist attacks).
I hate the way some of our worst leaders have used terrorism to justify everything from I.D cards involving your DNA and Eye Scan (here in the U.K) to war with stabile regimes (most notably Iraq).
Perhaps that’s another global opinion Americans should take on board (i.e. the war on terror is being abused)?

[edit on 090705 by Liberal1984]

By Liberal 1984:

1- When a suicide bomber thinks “I hate Israel because back in 1948 the U.N awarded 6% of the landowning population 54% of Palestine’s land.

2- And I hate America because in name of freedom 7000 Iraq’s died in the anarchy unleashed in Baghdad alone, in July 2006 alone.

3- America has contaminated the lands of Afghanistan and Iraq with depleted uranium, they supply weapons and money to Israel;

4- and during the war with Lebanon there only response to arms sales was to accelerate them.

REPLY: 1- No, the UN awarded the (so-called) Palestinians land that was won by Isreal, in a war started by Palestine.

2- The 12 Million-plus of Iraqis that voted feel it was worth it; and there are many more who think the same way.

3- The depleted Uranium used in artillery and bombs is less than 2% as radioactive as raw Uranium found in nature. Isreal is surrounded by those who wish to wipe their race off the face of the earth; they deserve assistance from someone.

4- The arms sale was made 8 months earlier; it was the delivery that was accelerated.

So in Iraq when a suicide bomber thinks “if I kill ten Americans today; then I’ll help pile on the pressure for the Americans to withdrew” that’s wrong is? Maybe you think George Bush would be under just as much pressure to withdraw from Iraq; and would be in an equally strong position if zero Americans had died in Iraq?

Problem #1
They are killing VASTLY more Muslims and Iraqi's then they are us. Such an obvious ploy to garner sympathy and cause folks like you to feel the way you obviously do. Propaganda pure and simple, extreme and deadly propaganda, yet effective obviously.

. If someone thinks that they were better of under Saddam is that wrong? That they would rather live under holy state than a western democratic one; is that wrong? I think this last sort are opinions; and I agree with the first one as under Saddam Iraqis were both richer (particularly before U.N sanctions) and more secure (including during sanctions).

Problem #2

If you will read up on this and check the facts you will see that the Homicide Bombers are coming from other countries. NOT the dissatisfied Iraqi's you claim.

Why aren't the Iraqi suicide bombers coming from Iraq itself, or from America's two great enemies, Iran and Syria? The answer is simple, as I've explained on this web site many times: From the point of view of Generational Dynamics, Iraq, Iran and Syria have all had recent crisis wars (ending in the 1980s), and the people from those countries want no part of war at this time. On the other hand, Saudi Arabia and Jordan have had distant crisis wars (ending in 1925 and 1949, respectively), so they have many more people in younger generations who are willing to die for altruistic causes.
www.generationaldynamics.com...

Rather than zing the Saudi kingdom, the Pentagon chief hinted that foreigners entering Iraq for "martyrdom" attacks might not always hail from the home country listed in jihad tributes posted online.
Terrorist trackers at the SITE Institute are studying lists of hundreds of "martyrs" downloaded from a slew of jihadist Web sites and message boards, which indicate most suicide bombers in Iraq were foreigners rather than homegrown.
www.nydailynews.com...

Semper

Originally posted by zappafan1
I can't help but notice the amount of ATS posts concerning what the world thinks about America. It also appears quite frequently in the media outlets of every stripe.

Of course, America (and Isreal) are the bad guys, and the cause of every bad thing going on both here and abroad. I say that we shouldn't care, especially when one looks back to fairly recent history, and compare "World Opinion" then, and now.

Like him or not Dennis Prager is a very intelligent guy, and shoots straight from the hip about things he has concerns about, in either party.

Posted: August 1, 2006 © 2006
"If you are ever morally confused about a major world issue, here is a rule that is almost never violated: Whenever you hear that "world opinion" holds a view, assume it is morally wrong."
"World opinion" has little or nothing to say about the world's greatest evils and regularly condemns those who fight evil.

"The history of "world opinion" regarding the greatest mass murders and cruelties on the planet is one of relentless apathy:

Ask the 1.5 million Armenians massacred by the Ottoman Turks;

or the 6 million Ukrainians slaughtered by Stalin;

or the tens of millions of other Soviet citizens killed by Stalin's Soviet Union;

or the 6 million Jews murdered by the Nazis and their helpers throughout Europe;

or the 60 million Chinese butchered by Mao;

or the 2 million Cambodians murdered by Pol Pot;

or the millions killed and enslaved in Sudan;

or the Tutsis murdered in Rwanda's genocide;

or the millions starved to death and enslaved in North Korea;

The above is a partial list, and continues in the rest of the story, which can be found here: [link] www.worldnetdaily.com...

Read and compare that list to the Goals of America: the War On Terror; trying to spread the ideas and ideals of individual liberty and freedom, etc.



[edit on 24-8-2006 by zappafan1]

M8 as far as I can see it,the vast majority of the US voted for the Bush administration twice,and through the time that administration has been in power,alot of UN treatys has been broken and alot of unneccesary wars has sprung up.

I could list a number of problems Bush and his fellow allies have caused.He has not performed well in his presidency and thus far he has caused far more problems than he has solved.If anybody wants to defend him,fine,but I think the current problems facing the world today speaks for itself.Mind you its not just the Bush administration but other administrations over the past that have been in power over the US.

And the US/Bush administration is not the only country/group under scrutiny in the media.Many muslim extremest groups are blamed on the news everyday,not to mention Britain,Sudan,N.Korea,Iran,Isreal,Syria and i could go on.

Its time for the Bush administration and their allies to fess up about their mistakes.The sooner its done,the better,right?

[edit on 16-9-2006 by southern_Guardian]

Originally posted by southern_Guardian
Its time for the Bush administration and their allies to fess up about their mistakes.The sooner its done,the better,right?

We'll "fess up" when the French and Russians do or when the Iranians do.
The sooner its done, the better, right?

I would support the US in its ambitions if it was not controlled by Israel and the Israeli lobby in regards foreign policy and increasingly on internal policy.

I could support an imperialist USA that was true to its roots and I knew who was in control.

Yeah, why worry about world opinion? Lets polute the planet till it fries and legalize torture as long as we're the ones doing it. Now that's how to set an example.

I would support the US in its ambitions if it was not controlled by Israel and the Israeli lobby in regards foreign policy and increasingly on internal policy.

I could support an imperialist USA that was true to its roots and I knew who was in control.

I’ve just voted you way above for that. That’s 100% my opinion, I’d just add that if the U.S was truly after its own interests we would never have invaded Iraq. We would have done a deal with Saddam its called cheap oil in exchange for friendship (and possibly anti Iranian weapons).

Of course now that Iran is close to having an atomic bomb we better not get in the way of it. Just think of all this corruption from within that would stop if someone nuked it; no more Fundamentalist dictatorship, no more Holy Sand; the result? World one more step to being perfect. Of course I would feel sorry for the Iranians as at least they actually own the land they have (that and most are quite nice people; unlike those from other places I know).

But directly to the topic I’d say this: For America to forget global opinion will increase the speed of its destruction. How many empires have done that anyway? Even the Romans went to great efforts to do reports.
If, (and I say if) America is at war with terrorism (and not just idol never-ending profits, waiting for places like Halliburton) then obviously what others think of you is important.
Otherwise America may as well just go straight into genocide; fortunately I trust its people would see it for what it is so I guess that’s not an option. With that in mind America can only gain wisdom by listening to global opinion (once more its free).

The only possible exception is the few absolute dictatorships like North Korea (but even in Iran they have the internet, and not all of it is biased).
Even so you would still want to know what the people in North think; both because its interesting, because in war it will be the route of propaganda, and because whatever happens to them is a lesson about what (could potentially) happen to us. There are too many lessons to be learned to ignore global opinion.

I noticed Prager missed out the near extermination of the North American Indian, and in the quote posted most of those events took place in ww2. I think America/Americans (not neccesarily all) think world opinion is not a problem then continue on course with the current foreign policy issue. Eventually the school bully gets a good thrashing from all those he has terrorised, who on their own could not beat him, but collectively they could.

When are Americans going to realise that their country was founded and opened up by European business men who's decendants today still call the shots. There not making America great for you there making it rich for them and whilst you sail off to fight the wars of freedom and liberty they are sitting back and making billions through your sacrifice. Please tell me of how many war vets come home to become millionaires, dont they normally come home dead, disfigured, tortured in mind and body, yes wars a glorious thing as long as your not the one doing the fighting.

What an utterly partial list. It omits, among many others,

• the hundreds of thousands of civilians killed in Iraq
  
• the millions (between two and four) killed in Vietnam
  
• the hundreds of thousands killed in US-run coups in Indonesia, Iran, Chile, Argentina, Brazil, Guatemala, and many other countries
  

...and so on.

Yes, there's a lot of apathy about. And the US is no exception to that rule.

I can't wait to see why all the above are irrelevant or justifiable in the circumstances. I look forward to a lot of variations on the old "we had to destroy the village to save it" gag.