High Gas, So what. Lets Talk Biodiesel

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posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 03:06 PM
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Ok, I have no room to talk.

I have a gas running car. In a last post I made before this one there were people complaining about gas prices. I think that we should talk about ways around it.

I think Biodiesel Is the way to go. Why you may ask..................

There are a few reasons.(Not getting into environment reasons either.)

Reason 1: We are paying between 2.80 and 3.20 for a gallon of cheap gas here in the US.

Reason 2: To many people are complaining that they can not do anything to get away without paying so much for gas.

Reason 3: Biodiesel is actually fairly cheap and can be bought in most states.

Reason 4: You can actually make this stuff yourself. Ya that's right YOURSELF.

Reason 5: As stated above you can make it yourself. And is fairly simple to make.

Reason 6: The materials that are used to make this can be found in most restaurants, auto parts stores, and kitchens.

Reason 7: Best of all The price for making this Biodiesel is around 50 cents to 1 buck a gallon.

My point on last one.

I am delivering pizza's At a month I spend about 350 to 500 Dollars a month gas. I am planning on switching to Biodiesel in the next few months. If I would switch I would be paying roughly between 70 and 130 bucks a month for gas.

If that don't get you people on this bandwagon to stop crying I am paying to much and actually do something about it then I don't know what will.
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Now environment issues. well there is none. that was easy.

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Materials on Biodiesel

Well Cooking oil, You know that stuff you deep fry with, Methanol, and Lye.

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In closing I would like people who have Biodiesel exp to step up and help spread on how cool this is. From what I understand you can use any diesel engine all you have to do in some cases is convert the carburetor.

Anyway Lets hear you complain about this... In a good way.




posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 03:48 PM
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ADM produced ethanol - say thank you Senator Dole - is charged first to the taxpayers who subsidize corn growers. Then taxpayers subsidize AMD in cash payments and in a law making gasoline companies buy their product. WOW! Then finally, we as consumers pay for ethanol a 3rd time at the gas pump! Try not to buy any gas mixed with ethanol

MORE LATER



posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 04:17 PM
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posted by ThichHeaded

“ . . there were people complaining about gas prices. I think we should talk about ways around it. I think Bio diesel Is the way to go.
Reason 1: We pay between 2.80 and 3.20 a gallon
Reason 3: Bio diesel is fairly cheap and can be bought in most states.
Reason 4: You can actually make this stuff yourself.
Reason 6: The materials that are used to make this can be found in most restaurants, auto parts stores, and kitchens.
Reason 7: Best of all The price for making this Bio diesel is around 50 cents to 1 buck a gallon. Materials for Bio diesel - Cooking oil, Methanol, and Lye.

People who have Bio diesel exp step up and help spread on how cool this is.

From what I understand you can use any diesel engine all you have to do in some cases is convert the carburetor. Lets hear you about this . . In a good way.
[Edited by Don W]



I thought “Bio” diesel was fuel made from biodegradable materials. Usually plant-life. Things that “rot” naturally. Or put more politely, decay. The diesel engine has the advantage it will run on any hydro-carbon in a liquid state. On some fuels better than others. But if you can inject it, if it has oil in it, a diesel can run on it.

You can’t make a gasoline engine into a diesel engine. GM, then the world’s largest manufacturing corporation, tried to do that in 1973-1978. Prompted by the first Arab Oil Embargo. That a consequence of the Yom Kippur War. If GM could not do it in their labs, you cannot do it in your home. GM took the gasoline 350 cid V8 used in Oldsmobiles and made it into a diesel for sale in Olds and some Cadillacs. After warranty failure afer warranty failure, all of those engines were replaced with gasoline 350s. At GM's expense.

The basic problem is this. Gasoline engines back then were running on 8 and 8.5 to 1 compression ratios. The loads on the crankshaft and connecting rods were mild. Diesel engines OTOH, run on 18 to 24 to 1 compression ratios. Heavier cranks and stouter con rods are mandatory. That is why a Cummins diesel engine of 300 horsepower weighs 4 times as much as a Corvette engine of the same horsepower.

Diesel fuel is rated in “C-tane” as opposed to “octane” in car engines. Most commercial trucks use Diesel No. 2 which I believe has a C-tane rating of 60, which may or may not be like octane as used in cars. If the fuel being used in the engine has less than the value of “60" then it will produce less horsepower.

Bio Diesel reeks of a boondoggle to replace Archer Daniels Midlands long running scam of ethanol. It takes more BTUs for ADM to make ethanol than the finished product contains. The same is true of all the bio diesel fuels currently available. You cannot spend $10 to save $5. Unless you are slicking the US Govt out of the difference. This is not to say that a bio diesel project in the Upper Amazon Basin might not be commercially viable, but it is to say that is not the case in 2006 in America.

There is only one solution to the hydro-carbon problem. Use less of it.



[edit on 8/19/2006 by donwhite]



posted on Aug, 20 2006 @ 07:33 AM
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There are only so many grass cuttings in this world. In pilot plant quantities, I’m sure bio-diesel looks good, as if we re getting something valuable from something worthless. Oops? Wasn't that the mother of alchemy? To turn base metals into gold? That search occupied many serious thinking people in the Middle Ages, and isn’t it the father albeit without benefit of clergy, of our modern chemistry?

I recall seeing the Cummins Diesel race car at Indy back in the ‘50s or ‘60s. Follows a link to ‘Car & Driver’ that may be of interest to diesel fans.

www.caranddriver.com...




[edit on 8/20/2006 by donwhite]



posted on Aug, 20 2006 @ 07:40 AM
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I know a friend who works in the bio-diesel business. The process can be done at home- but less hassle if you buy it from a business.

Basically:
1. The company sells vegetable oil to a company- they use it in their fryers. Because it has to be disposed off in a correct and environmental way- it is recollected by the sales company for nothing.

2. It is then taken back and refined to make is fuel worthy (sorry I can't give specifics on the process) and sold on. The only side effect of the process is your car will smell like chips- anything else the restaurant has been cooking AND I have heard several reports of diesel engines failing for some unknown reason when using bio diesel.

It is basically a win win business. You sell to the company, collect their wate for free and then sell the 'waste' on for extra profit.



posted on Aug, 20 2006 @ 08:36 AM
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posted by Knights

I know a friend in the bio-diesel business. The process can be done at home - but less hassle if you buy it from a business.

Basically:
1. The company sells vegetable oil to a company - it is recollected by the sales company for nothing.

2. It is then taken back and refined to make is fuel worthy
The only side effect of the process is your car will smell like anything the restaurant has been cooking
AND
I have heard several reports of diesel engines failing for some unknown reason when using bio diesel.

It is basically a win win business. You sell to the company, collect their waste for free and then sell the 'waste' on for extra profit. [Edited by Don W]



Mr K, Everything you say is true!

But you said 2 or 3 things that I want to re-visit or re-emphasize. 1) The “refining” process for turning used cooking oil into combustible bio-diesel fuel is nothing more complicated than running it through a fine filter to remove the injector blocking solids.

I expect poor filtering is the root cause of the engine failures you mentioned. You cannot “play” with the injector system of a modern diesel. If you reduce the amount of fuel spayed into a cylinder but keep the engine running, you will raise the heat level in that cylinder to piston burring amounts - and quick!

2) Every restaurant produces fair quantities of used cooking oil. For many years the used oil has been collected by a few companies. It was then filtered and re-packaged and sold in Mexico and other (poor) countries where used cooking oil is not a cultural no-no as it is here. It would be a simple matter to divert this into bio-diesel to sell at the pump.

If you can find the number of gallons of cooking oil used by US restaurants, I think you will find the amount is too small to make this a useful alternative source of fuel for motor vehicles.


[edit on 8/20/2006 by donwhite]



posted on Aug, 20 2006 @ 01:50 PM
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I think since so people are dependant on gas, not many diesel engines out there, Hell I am having a hard time finding a crap car top play with, only condition running engine.

Anyway I think for general use and many a small business I think it would be a good idea. Take a look here.
journeytoforever.org...
www.biodiesel.org...

And a place to show you how to make your own. So is the 1st link but 1st link gives many other links there also.
www.biodieselcommunity.org...

I think it will be cheaper, as I said how much I use gas now I can probably save over 7% of what I spend in gas in a month. after I get everything I need.

Plus you add lye and Methanol into that mix so there would be added gallons there depending on how much you make.

Roughly I should cost you at most 1 dollar US to make at most. I don't see a problem with that. I have seen cars on ebay with 4 to 600,000 miles on them so those diesels are really good engines.

I also failed to add this.

Originally posted by Mirthful Me

Originally posted by MBF
I drive a big diesel 4X4 and have cut back on my driving.


www.biodiesel.org...

Or better yet, brew your own and drive for about $1.00 a gallon.

I've been running B100 for quite some time, and I dread having to go somewhere where I'm not at least a B20 blend.




Found here.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 8/20/2006 by ThichHeaded]



posted on Aug, 21 2006 @ 06:25 PM
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Originally posted by donwhite
But you said 2 or 3 things that I want to re-visit or re-emphasize. 1) The “refining” process for turning used cooking oil into combustible bio-diesel fuel is nothing more complicated than running it through a fine filter to remove the injector blocking solids.


Not true at all, the process of converting used cooking oil into biodiesel is far more complex than simple filtering. There is actually a conversion process (transesterification) where the the hydrocarbon chains are broken, and subsequent bonding with the methanol.

www.biodiesel.org...

www.utahbiodieselsupply.com...



I expect poor filtering is the root cause of the engine failures you mentioned. You cannot “play” with the injector system of a modern diesel. If you reduce the amount of fuel spayed into a cylinder but keep the engine running, you will raise the heat level in that cylinder to piston burring amounts - and quick!


Particulate matter in fuel won't be an issue with biodiesel, but titration and residual glycerin (animal fat) will. Used vegetable oil is always washed and filtered before the conversion process. Any diesel engine will have from good to excellent fuel filtration depending on manufacturer. Can't play with injectors in a diesel? News to me, there's a huge aftermarket industry for just this very modification (and about everything else in diesel engines). Finally, too little fuel won't hurt pistons in a diesel, unless you were at full throttle (what we in dieseland cal WOT) and your exhaust gas temperatures are sky high (EGT) and then you kill the throttle and suck a lot of air (say after pulling a long hill, hitting the crest and coasting down) causing thermal shock, and crack a piston... No fuel... No EGT... Wet stacking can become an issue when minimal fuel/no load conditions are present in a diesel engine. Burnt pistons are always a result of too much fuel.



2) Every restaurant produces fair quantities of used cooking oil. For many years the used oil has been collected by a few companies. It was then filtered and re-packaged and sold in Mexico and other (poor) countries where used cooking oil is not a cultural no-no as it is here. It would be a simple matter to divert this into bio-diesel to sell at the pump.


Every restaurant with a fryer does, but not every restaurant. Many of my friends and diesel acquaintances are currently relieving restaurants of their used cooking oil... They hand it over willingly, as they would have to pay for the service otherwise.



If you can find the number of gallons of cooking oil used by US restaurants, I think you will find the amount is too small to make this a useful alternative source of fuel for motor vehicles.


Also not true, it already is a viable alternative energy source, and only a small percentage of used cooking oil is being reclaimed, on top of that, there's virgin biodiesel that is being commercially refined across the country.

Biodiesel Monkeys, not just for vegan trucks anymore...



posted on Aug, 21 2006 @ 06:38 PM
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I just attended the quarterly meeting of the PowerStroke club I belong to, and after high performance modifications, alternative fuels was next on the hierarchy of discussion (I'm in both camps
). One esteemed member has not purchased fuel in three years, and averages about 25,000 miles a year. He's really hardcore, as he starts on biodiesel, then when the engine is up to temp, he switches over to vegetable oil (this requires a fair amount of modification to the engine, unlike biodiesel), then before he shuts down, he switches back to bio for the next start up. That's too much for me, and the BTU rating of vegetable oil is too low compared to #2, or even B100 (BTU's means horsepower) in my constant quest of vehicular pwnage.

Maintained diesel engines can easily hit the million mile mark.

Biodiesel is definitely the way to go.



posted on Aug, 22 2006 @ 09:53 AM
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posted by Mirthful Me

“ . . the process of cooking oil into biodiesel is more complex than simple filtering. There is actually a conversion process (transesterification) where the the hydrocarbon chains are broken, and subsequent bonding with the methanol. [Edited by Don W]


I took you advice and read one of your links. You are right, Mr Mirth. This is why another poster mentioned lye. The base to cause the chemical conversion. I have learned something.



Particulate matter in fuel won't be an issue with biodiesel, Any diesel engine will have from good to excellent fuel filtration depending on manufacturer. Finally, too little fuel won't hurt pistons in a diesel, unless you causing thermal shock, and crack a piston... No fuel... No EGT... Burnt pistons are always a result of too much fuel.


I think I understand. I was comparing gasoline engines where a too lean mixture is verboten whereas a too rich mixture just makes for poor fuel economy.



[biodiesel] is already a viable alternative energy source, and only a small percentage of used cooking oil is being reclaimed, on top of that, there's virgin biodiesel that is being commercially refined across the country.


I don’t mean to quibble. So I’ll quibble. Just as wind and solar are “viable” alternative energy sources, so also I understand vegetable oil can be, too. In the short run. In the not so distant future vegetable oil will have a higher usage. Feeding humans. Because we are overfed over here, we can afford the luxury of using “food” to run our cars and light trucks. This is not a luxury most of the world can afford. At some point in time, we’ll get our act together, or we won’t. It is a toss-up as far as I’m seeing things which it will be. But that’s for another thread.

Thanks for taking the time to educate me. If anyone wants to vote for an auto forum, click on the link following

www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Aug, 22 2006 @ 11:32 AM
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There was a post you made a while ago to show how cool Biodiesel was compared to a gas engine.

You shows 3 links of a truck blowing the crap out of a 68 camaro and a few others cars in a drag race. Can you slap them links here for I didn't save them I just looked thru the post I believe.

[edit on 8/22/2006 by ThichHeaded]



posted on Aug, 22 2006 @ 04:48 PM
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Originally posted by ThichHeaded
There was a post you made a while ago to show how cool Biodiesel was compared to a gas engine.

You shows 3 links of a truck blowing the crap out of a 68 camaro and a few others cars in a drag race. Can you slap them links here for I didn't save them I just looked thru the post I believe.


That guy is running #2, not biodiesel (though he'd probably would beat them on B100 as well), the reason I posted those videos, and in another thread, the information regarding the Audi TDI LeMans and Sebring victories is to lay to rest the common misconception about diesels and performance. Nothing produces torque like a diesel, so nothing can tow like a diesel, but they (as evidenced by the videos and race results) can also turn in some pretty respectable performance as well. Combine that with the durability of a diesel engine (heck, they aren't even considered broken in until they hit 100,000 miles
), and you have a sensible all around package.

For those interested, the post with the videos is here:

politics.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Aug, 22 2006 @ 06:01 PM
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posted by Mirthful Me

That guy is running #2. The reason I posted those videos, the information regarding the Audi TDI LeMans and Sebring victories is to lay to rest the common misconception about diesels and performance. Nothing produces torque like a diesel. [Edited by Don W]


Q1. Was that a 1/8th mile drag strip?

Q2. In the first two videos, did the truck get a head start?

Q3. What engine class was the gasoline car in Video #3?

I am passingly familiar with the F350 with IH Navistar Powerstroke V8 diesels. A friend has a 2005 model bought new and for $200 you can buy a chip to reprogram the engine to give power or speed. His dualie can chirp the tires when the auto tranny goes into 2nd gear. It will break 8 sec on a 0-60 street run, as on my own sweep second hand watch.

www.zmag.org...
www.caranddriver.com...
en.wikipedia.org...



[edit on 8/22/2006 by donwhite]



posted on Aug, 22 2006 @ 06:33 PM
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Originally posted by donwhite
Q1. Was that a 1/8th mile drag strip?


Yes, that's an 1/8 mile strip.



Q2. In the first two videos, did the truck get a head start?


No, they don't do brackets there... You can see the christmas tree in the middle, two simultaneous greens. Any advantage is pure RT on Danny's part.




Q3. What engine class was the gasoline car in Video #3?


I'm not sure, it's a trailered Chevelle with slicks (not street legal), it's probably a small block 350.


I am passingly familiar with the F350 with IH Navistar Powerstroke V8 diesels. A friend has a 2005 model bought new and for $200 you can buy a chip to reprogram the engine to give power or speed. His dualie can chirp the tires when the auto tranny goes into 2nd gear. It will break 8 sec on a 0-60 street run, as on my own sweep second hand watch.


I don't know about the $200.00 mark, a reflash is $75-$100, and a flip chip is $350-$500 depending on who's doing the tuning. There are also programmers that allow you to do your own reflashes (I use one) they are generally in the same $350-$500 range. Ford doesn't give IH/Navistar any credit on the 6.0L, they consider it a straight Ford engine (not true, but they barely acknowledge the 7.3L has any IH ties). Most of this is the huge gap in parts prices, and that Ford doesn't want people to use International shops for service... Hence the name "stealership."

Dodge owners are equally mistreated, and GM is downright fascist about it.


Chirp the tires? A 6.0 should be able to leave a 32nd of an inch thick black strip on pavement on a boosted launch, and your first two shifts.


JbT

posted on Aug, 22 2006 @ 06:46 PM
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I saw this Biodiesel on the T.V. show "Trucks" on powerblock T.V. (Spike T.V. Channel).

Buddy on there demo'd making a batch of the biodiesel with the equipment that can be picked up from sites like this: www.homebiodieselkits.com... and then put it into that truck..... Lets just say, it got rid of the treads reall fast



posted on Aug, 22 2006 @ 06:53 PM
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Originally posted by JbT
Buddy on there demo'd making a batch of the biodiesel with the equipment that can be picked up from sites like this: www.homebiodieselkits.com... and then put it into that truck..... Lets just say, it got rid of the treads reall fast



Yeah, you can buy a rig for $3,000 or more, or you can build your own "still" for about $150 using an old water heater (think recycling
).



posted on Aug, 22 2006 @ 08:09 PM
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posted by Mirthful Me

“ . . after high performance modifications, alternative fuels was next on the hierarchy of discussion . . the BTU rating of vegetable oil is too low compared to #2, or even B100 (BTU's means horsepower) in my constant quest of vehicular power-age. [Well] maintained diesel engines can easily hit the million mile mark. Biodiesel is definitely the way to go. [Edited by Don W]


The current generation of Detroit Diesels are nick-named “million milers” at Flying J and such truck stops. But lest we forget, there is no magic in long engine life. Comparing a 300 hp gasoline engine - say a Chevy 350 - to a 300 hp diesel engine like a Caterpillar or Cummins, is like looking at apples and oranges.

Customers do not expect the gasoline engine to run more than 125-150,000 miles. Over 5 or 10 years. Most will have it serviced every 7,500 miles or so. Customers will not require maximum output of the engine more than a few times in a year, and in many instances, maybe never. With 4 or 5 speed trannys and 3 to 1 or lower rear ends - oops - final drive ratios - the engine will spend most of its life at 2,000-3,000 rpm when it is designed to run up 5,000 rpm or more. The engine will be light in weight, say 350 to 600 lbs for a car engine. Which are used in SUV and light trucks, excepting the diesel versions, of course.

The Cummins 329 hp N series engine is an in-line 6, displacing 14 lifters, or 850 cubic inches. I have looked on Google to find the weight of this engine but no where is it to be found. My guess would be well over 2,000 lbs. A Dodge pickup called the Sidewinder was clocked at 222 mph which may be using the new Cummins 610 version. I would guess the 610 would weigh in at 900-1100 pounds. The extra weight in diesels is used to strengthen the block, especially the lower end, the crankshaft, con rods, pistons and head. All due to the very high compression ratios for compression ignition engines. Customers use these engines to the max day in, day out. At 50 mph for the allowed 10 hours a day, the truck can easily run 3000 miles a week, and who knows how many more if the driver has two or three log books?

Diesels are stronger because they have to be.

Here’s a good article on Class 8 trucks.
www.forbes.com...

Go here to vote for a new auto forum.
www.abovetopsecret.com...



[edit on 8/22/2006 by donwhite]



posted on Aug, 23 2006 @ 06:05 AM
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Originally posted by donwhite



posted by Mirthful Me

“ . . after high performance modifications, alternative fuels was next on the hierarchy of discussion . . the BTU rating of vegetable oil is too low compared to #2, or even B100 (BTU's means horsepower) in my constant quest of vehicular power-age. [Well] maintained diesel engines can easily hit the million mile mark. Biodiesel is definitely the way to go. [Edited by Don W]


Perhaps for context and accuracy, you should leave quotes in their original forum.


I never posted, nor intended to post "vehicular power-age" (I have no idea of what that is) I did post, and intended to post "vehicular pwnage" (which I'm sure you have no idea what the meaning is
). Furthermore, my discussion regarding diesels has been confined to the non-commercial applications currently available to North American consumers, specifically the diesel engines in Ford, Dodge, GM pickups, SUV's and the VW TDI. My comparisons were strictly confined to those engines/vehicles (including the million mile mark). Since we have moved on to commercial applications, I'll address your question, and make a couple of comments.



The Cummins 329 hp N series engine is an in-line 6, displacing 14 lifters, or 850 cubic inches. I have looked on Google to find the weight of this engine but no where is it to be found. My guess would be well over 2,000 lbs. A Dodge pickup called the Sidewinder was clocked at 222 mph which may be using the new Cummins 610 version. I would guess the 610 would weigh in at 900-1100 pounds. The extra weight in diesels is used to strengthen the block, especially the lower end, the crankshaft, con rods, pistons and head. All due to the very high compression ratios for compression ignition engines. Customers use these engines to the max day in, day out. At 50 mph for the allowed 10 hours a day, the truck can easily run 3000 miles a week, and who knows how many more if the driver has two or three log books?


Cummins N14-330

Cummins N14-525

Dry weight is 2805 lbs, so figure operating weight at 3,000 lbs plus. I included the N14 at it's operating extremes, as a good example of the same engine producing more or less power based solely on programming. Some may wonder why would you want 330hp when you could have 525 hp? The bottom line is liability, and reliability (some may think economy, but a big rig will usually get better mileage with the higher horsepower engines). A commercial outfit with hundreds, if not thousands of trucks what's to minimize their insurance costs, and it's a whole lot cheaper to insure 1,000 330hp trucks than a 1,000 525 hp trucks (even if they are exactly the same engine except for programming). On the reliability subject, the N14 at 525 hp is operating in it's upper half of it's design limitation (though no where near it's maximum) and will suffer a lower MTBF. On the subject of horsepower, the values given for these engines are in "BHP" as opposed to "RWHP" or the amount of horsepower actually put to the pavement (the only horsepower value that matters). One reason for this is Cummins has no idea what transmission will be used, and some transmission and drive configurations will consume more power than others. The other is that these engines aren't about horsepower, but by the almighty torque. Torque is what allows heavy hauling at low RPM's, and a diesel has plenty of it relative to horsepower. At 400 RWHP in my truck, I am probably close to if not over 500 hp at the flywheel (BHP).

en.wikipedia.org...

I am however woefully short of the N14-525 in terms of torque, probably no more than 50-55%, and certainly the the construction of a much smaller passenger vehicle diesel engine would be unable to survive the shock and loads that a commercial engine is subject to.

Since we're going up he food chain on engines, I'll whip out the most efficient engine in the world, and it of course is a diesel, but what surprises most, is that it's also the largest engine in the world.

people.bath.ac.uk...

50% thermal efficiency!


For those interested in the Sidewinder project, here's some details:

findarticles.com...

I'll refrain from any comments about Gale Banks.



[edit on 23/8/2006 by Mirthful Me]



posted on Aug, 23 2006 @ 07:51 PM
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I was surfing and ran across this report from Cornell U. of Ithaca NY. I think it is one of the Ivy League schools. High class. Top grade. And etc.

The Cornell University study found that producing ethanol and biodiesel from corn and other plant crops is not worth the energy. Turning plants such as corn, soybeans and sunflowers into fuel uses much more energy than the resulting ethanol or biodiesel generates, says a study by Cornell in conjunction with UC-Berkeley.


www.news.cornell.edu...

"There is just no energy benefit to using plant biomass for liquid fuel," says David Pimentel, professor of ecology and agriculture at Cornell. "These strategies are not sustainable."

In terms of energy output compared with energy input for ethanol production, the study found that:
A) corn requires 29 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced;
B) switch grass requires 45 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced; and
C) wood biomass requires 57 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced.

In terms of energy output compared with the energy input for biodiesel production, the study found that:
A) soybean plants requires 27 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced, and
B) sunflower plants requires 118 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced.


The researchers considered such factors as the energy used in producing the crop including production of pesticides and fertilizer, running farm machinery and irrigating, grinding and transporting the crop and in fermenting then distilling the ethanol from the water mix.


Prof. Pimentel advocates the use of burning biomass to produce thermal energy to heat homes, for example; he deplores the use of biomass for liquid fuel. "The government spends more than $3 billion a year to subsidize ethanol production." Ethanol production in the United States does not benefit the nation's energy security, its agriculture, economy or the environment," said Pimentel. "Ethanol production requires large fossil energy input, and therefore, it is contributing to oil and natural gas imports and U.S. deficits." The report is in “Natural Resources Research” Vol. 14:1; p. 65-76.


It is a well accepted political story that once Majority Leader Bob Dole was personally responsible for getting Archer Daniels Midland into the ethanol business. ADM is the largest single recipient of Federal farm subsidy. At one point in time ADM had the EPA requiring gasoline be mixed with ethanol.

We must be smart not cute.

Mod Edit: Quoting – Please Review This Link.

Mod Edit: External Source Tags – Please Review This Link.


[edit on 23/8/2006 by Mirthful Me]



posted on Aug, 26 2006 @ 11:28 PM
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I have two diesel rigs:

87 Toyota 4x4 with a Toyota 3L
81 Toyota 2wd longbed with a Toyota 1L

Both purchased with explicit intent to run exclusively biodiesel within 5 years. Each vehicle cost about USD 3000 and the price is actually rising rapidly on these 4 cylinder 80's yota's because of the biodiesel/fuel shortage craze.

I have met several people running personally produced B100 and a few cutting their personal with 20% diesel (B80) but the best I've put in my rigs is B20 from the Bio Willie station in Mississippi. There is also a local station that sells B20, non-tax (red dye) home heating diesel... occassionally a tank of that goes through my rig; off road of course


I have plans to produce an "appleseed processor" this year. My budget is $1000 and should include enough for the Hot water tank, plumbing, pumps, wash tank and a few 55 gallon drums. I intend to put a small add in our thrifty nickle classifieds for waste oil collection... something always comes of a small add properly placed. From there it is on to cooking... and you can add big words like trans-ester-yadda-yadda.... but cooking bio is pretty easy. Just do your research and run a few small test batches until you feel ready to purchase full scale equipment.

As far as the big university study about ethanol and biodiesel taking more energy to make than it is worth... I agree with ethanol for sure, that is a no brainer. Biodiesel is different though. The energy required to process the oil is minimal... if you wanted to grow corn/soy/peanut oil commercially, yes it would take massive amounts of fossil fuels for the process... but if you stick with an organic garden and manual labor for personal use fuel... most of that disappears. And if you keep with recycling used oil there is no more effort involved than finding someone who is paying disposal fees; your college grad buddy managing the local McDonalds will do.

I purchased my first home as a condemned building from a man who was about to get charged a demolition fee from the city. I now rent that same building out for a profit. When you get a lemon... make lemonade. When you have smelly old cooking oil... make biodiesel. It is all in your perspective. One mans garbage is anothers treasure.

The real key is learning to respect a gallon of fuel. I drive when I have myself, tools, and a crew to transport; otherwise I'm on foot, horseback, or bike. I'm not bling blingin on the strip or taking joy rides on sunday. When I go shopping I buy in bulk so I spend less time driving. My 81 longbed gets close to 40 mpg with its 80 horsepower engine. A full tank and 4 jerry cans and I'm half way across the US if need be. If the need be.

Sri Oracle





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