TATP or Not TATP? - That is the Question

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Lets look at this.

TATP or Not TATP? - That is the Question

A friend with a doctorate in chemistry sent me the following:

"According to the official government story, TATP (triacetone triperoxide) was the explosive these conspirators were planning to manufacture aboard the airliners.

"This story is not plausible for a number of reasons, but let's take a quick look at just enough of the science so as not to provide anybody with a guide to making an actual bomb: TATP is made from hydrogen peroxide solution, acetone and sulfuric acid. The reaction can be carried out with just about any concentration, but is best done with concentrated solutions of both peroxide and acetone.

"The peroxide and acetone can be pre-mixed, but the acid must be added, a drop at a time, to the solution, all the while continuously stirring it and keeping it continuously chilled. This step of the process will take several hours, during which the fumes given off will be substantial and quite overpowering, thus a lab-quality air evacuation system is required. (ES: right here, the whole idea of a TATP bomb becomes ludicrous. Difficult in a lab, but impossible in an airplane due to the environment - the toilet - and the time requirement.)

"One then must let the resulting solution stand for an extended period at temperatures above the freezing point, but definitely below 10 Celsius (50 Fahrenheit). Above 10 Celsius, the TATP does not form; instead, diperoxide forms, which is so unstable it cannot be worked with. The time required for the reaction to go to completion is at least 24 hours and often several days.

Please...read on...

Given the fact this is tedious and lengthy process, i would say this is an impossibility. What do you think?
We might as well know how things really work.

Comments?

Interesting, but why would suicide bombers care about the fumes or making the explosive "stable"? If they had two portions premixed and just dumped the sulfuric acid into it, it would explode then and there right? Wouldn't that be their goal?

As with so many things in life, the "expert" appears to be both correct and incorrect.

The problem is that TATP has become a generic term. Sort of like saying, "I want a coke", when what you really mean is you want a carbonated beverage.

You also need to keep in mind that the press try to keep things as simple as possible so that everyone can get a grasp of the issues.

Additionally, the government is not going to release the exact chemical makeup of the liquid explosive in question, which leave everyone with the opportunity to guess what it is.

The reality is that there are many ways to make a peroxide based explosive and there are a myriad different derivatives of it.

Until the specific details are known, claiming that it is absolutely impossible is simply pushing disinfo to further a particular agenda IMO.

When the exact chemical makeup is disclosed along with the proceedures used to create the product are known, only then we will be able to certify the possibility of using the explosive on a plane.

Here is an image of the liquid explosive that was recovered from the 2 failed bombs on the German train last month.



medienkritik.typepad.com...
www.heute.de...

[edit on 8/19/06 by makeitso]

I've wondered about the so called 'liquid bomb' thing. I don't belive there exist such a thing. The TATP is difficult and must be made in labratories under 10 degree celcius because its so unstable. The suspected terrorist using such must be expert on chemistry, or at least more than common knowledge on chemistry to make it.

People's knowledge on chemicals come from Macgyver (spelling? the TV hero) who might mix two liquids that explodes, but not before Macgyver manages to jump away from the explosive center, mind!

So I wonder;
does it even exist liquid explosives that could be used? And would it not be easier to use the common dynamite bombs with timer rather than the fancy liquid thing?

Ghaele
I don't belive there exist such a thing.

Denial does not make it go away.

Ghaele
The TATP is difficult and must be made in labratories under 10 degree celcius.

Not necessarily, other methods only use room temp. Starting way back in 1895!

uncatalyzed synthesis involved keeping a mixture of acetone and
hydrogen peroxide for 4 weeks at room temperature.

Wolffenstein, R. Chem. Ber. 1895, 28, 2265-2269.

Ghaele
The suspected terrorist using such must be expert on chemistry, or at least more than common knowledge on chemistry to make it.

Nope. They only need the instructions.

one forum, called al-Bramj explains to inquirers, in plain language and thorough details, how to make the highly explosive acetone peroxide as a main explosive charge and how to make a detonator from the same substance. The jihadi who posted the instructions was also aware of the precautionary details necessary when handling or mixing the components.

Liquid Explosive Training Manuals Easily Attainable on Jihadi Forums

On November 6 last year, the Sunday Times reported that another Islamist web forum, called Al Firdaws or Paradise contained detailed instructions for making bombs. The site had posted on October 6 a manual which detailed in 80 pages how to make bomb materials in kitchens.

Internet: Liquid Explosives Recipes Available On Muslim Websites

Ghaele
And would it not be easier to use the common dynamite bombs with timer rather than the fancy liquid thing?

Nope, sensors at major airports test for nitrates that are a component of most explosives, including dynamite. That is why terrorists have recently switched to a peroxide based explosive, which does not contain any nitrates.

So you guys think someone can pull this off in an airplane???

True, nobody's going to tell us "exactly" how its done, but according to this, its time consuming....

Just wondering

If they don't let you carry liquids onboard, that's a plus.

There are other ways to disable an aircraft, though, that aren't screened for. If you're really persistent you can find a way.