So, you're saying that these detainees, the vast bulk of whom are being held without formal charges, have been shackled to the floor for many hours, starved, had dogs intimidate them, have been tortured, abused and humiliated...

...peed on the people who are holding them prisoners?

Whoa! How dare they!?!?

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
So, you're saying that these detainees, the vast bulk of whom are being held without formal charges, have been shackled to the floor for many hours, starved, had dogs intimidate them, have been tortured, abused and humiliated...

...peed on the people who are holding them prisoners?

Whoa! How dare they!?!?

Agreed, I bet it was really difficult to grab a shower for them.

Quite frankly if all the abuses perpetrated upon these detainees is true, or even half, then I think a little pee on their boots is a light sentence placed upon them compared to what I would sentence them to as a judge.

BH please PROVE that they have been tortured, that they’ve been denied food, and that they had dogs "intimidate" them. As for the rest, well they’re prisoners for a reason, and some techniques are a matter of perspective. My view of what's "humiliating" may be different than somebody else’s, so I'm not getting into that. And BTW what’s your view on this again? Are you condoning the assault and abuse against our troops by the detainees?



[edit on 31-7-2006 by WestPoint23]

And this is different from EVERY American prison how????

[edit on 31-7-2006 by loam]

WestPoint23,

What were you thinking, posting something like that? Haven't you got it yet? US = evil, evil, evil. It doesn't matter what good the US does, it is irrelivant propiganda. What bad befalls the US is karmic justice. If I had to rate a flexibility scale on ATS from 1-10, the average would be about 0.

Heaven forbid that some guys training to kill westerners actually have to be someplace where they can't hurt us. Doesn't matter that these are the same people who killed the US agents when they were detained in Afghanistan. They are harmless civilians.

Two of the biggest mistakes the US has made in the war on terror were letting Saddam out of that hole alive, and letting the Gitmo detainees out of Afghanistan alive.

That's right, I said it. Flame away.

Originally posted by loam
Except, of course, the AP article you use to cite the "evidence"...

Yeah, 3+ years and it takes a FOIA request for this to come out, I highly doubt that constitutes as high media coverage.

Nonetheless, the incident reports released under the Freedom of Information Act and reviewed by AP provide a rare chronicle of events inside the prison from the guards’ perspective.

Originally posted by loam
My thoughts exactly.... only I'm quite sure we are not saying the same thing.

I’m no missionary; you can believe what you want but the fact that this was not released sooner and the fact that it took a FOIA request for it to come out proves to me otherwise.

BTW, I can discuss your article but what does it have to do with THIS topic? And when did Bush say he WAS going to close the prison at Guantanamo? Choose you world carefully now, be more careful next time.

If I thought that the worst torture I would ever have to undergo would be laying naked, or being cold, or being called a name, or not having any sleep, I would be a happy, happy person. Quite frankly, when I think of torture I think of:

rape
removal of limbs
electric shock
drill to the kneecap
being fed feet first into a chipper
having your child killed in front of you

So please, keep me up without sleep and call me names. I'll thank you for it.

THANK GOD THIS REPORT CAME OUT!!!
Now finally we know who is really being abused. everyone tries to make the USA look like the big bad boogieman, but, ha, seems they are proved wrong.

These guards show awesome restraint when they are attacked don't they?

If you were in a concentration camp (which is what gitmo is), and you were innocent which the vast majority of these people are (look it up), and if you were being tortured, and humiliated, and starved....wouldnt you do something to fight back? Or would you sit there like a coward and take it? Dont blame these guys for attacking US guards when the US guards commit atrocities that even the SS guards in WW2 didnt do. These SUSPECTED ''terrorists'' have been detained for more than 4 years...no trial, no lawyer, no charge...theyre just being kept there so the mind-controlled soldiers can have some fun...makes me sick. When did the land of the free, home of the brave....turn into the land of the weak, home of the slave...probably sometime after Kennedy was assasinated.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Like you PROVED that the guards have been assaulted?

What will you take as proof?

Surly more than that for a topic such as this, you claimed a lot there BH, and I need not remind you what extraordinary claims require. BTW I’m showing you what internal Pentagon documents reveal about the conditions that the guards have to face every day, you don't believe them?

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
That's my position.

Why all the fluff when all you had to do was say yes? The detainees are not US citizens, so whatever you thing you’re entitled to is irrelevant to this case, they are foreign military nationals captured on the battlefield. Accordingly (and for good reason) the rules are a little different than they would be for Mrs. Benevolent Heretic.


Again note to everyone, this is about the ABUSE that US guards have to endure at Guantanamo, thank you.

[edit on 31-7-2006 by WestPoint23]

''This is MY country'' - Westpoint

Dont you know, Westpoint my man, that the big international banking cartels, for thousands of years, have used nationalism as a way to further divide and rule the people.

Dont you know that these banks put up the money to found and finance all the countries, and control who gets into positions of power to give the people the illusion of some kind of say?

Dont you know that they divide the land masses of Mother Earth into different ''countries'' in order to divide the people into different camps, arm these camps, then have them wage war against each other. Its classic divide and rule.

Dont you know the symbols that the people who own these banking cartels use are on basically every flag of every country? They are on every major corporation, every bank, any kind of influencial institution of power?

Nationalism, flag waving, its all nonsense to the core. We are all one people, living on one planet. We are the human species. Although most of us are still barbarians who love to wage war and solve quarrels so primitively, we still are in this together. Until we realize that, there will never be peace, and never be freedom.

I can just see it now. Right. Someone shackled like an animal is going to be "abusive"

Thanks for the laugh

Originally posted by WestPoint23
BTW I’m showing you what internal Pentagon documents reveal about the conditions that the guards have to face every day, you don't believe them?

I didn't say that... In fact, I think it's highly likely that if a prisoner has a chance to spit on a guard, he probably does. However, there's certainly a lot coming out of the Pentagon that I don't believe. The fact that it 'comes out of the Pentagon' lends NO credence to the claim.

Why all the fluff when all you had to do was say yes?

I wanted to be completely clear. I thought that would be all right.

The detainees are not US citizens, so whatever you thing you’re entitled to is irrelevant to this case...

Oh, I know the excuse they use. That doesn't happen to make it morally ok in my book, though. I believe all people are entitled (if not legally) to humane treatment. And I believe expressing my thoughts on the subject IS relevent in this thread.

Mrs. Benevolent Heretic.

I prefer "Ms." actually. j/k

Again note to everyone, this is about the ABUSE that US guards have to endure at Guantanamo, thank you.

I think it's miniscule compared to what the prisoners have to endure, so it's pretty hard for me to muster up much sympathy... And I think much of the 'abuse' the guards are enduring is probably owed to them for what they do the the prisoners.

Originally posted by dgtempe
Thanks for the laugh

I’m sure the US guards who have to put up with this crap on a daily basis and who have to restrain themselves less they not cause a sensational "incident" are laughing their A off too. Glad you enjoyed yourself though.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
The fact that it 'comes out of the Pentagon' lends NO credence to the claim.

If the Pentagon had released this earlier and on their own to show how "bad" the detainees were I might understand where your coming from but this was released upon a FOIA request, which leads me to think otherwise. BTW this is a very important story because when people saw that the detainees were shackled/handcuffed and kneeling while being watched by US guards they immediately started complaining and or making allegations. However now we know WHY they were treated like that, the safety of those guars is of utmost importance.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Oh, I know the excuse they use. That doesn't happen to make it morally ok in my book, though. I believe all people are entitled (if not legally) to humane treatment. And I believe expressing my thoughts on the subject IS relevent in this thread.

Of course they are, I just think there should be a distinction between what rights you and I have and the rights entitled to a detainee. We wont agree on this but IMO they have not been tortured, perhaps treated a bit roughly, but not tortured, and they haven’t been denied food or water. So I’d say they're getting what they are entitled to.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I think it's miniscule compared to what the prisoners have to endure, so it's pretty hard for me to muster up much sympathy... And I think much of the 'abuse' the guards are enduring is probably owed to them for what they do the the prisoners.

I cant say I agree with that, in fact I completely disagree with this. Those guards/interrogators (if you've ever listened to one) are professionals, they don’t torture the prisoners and they aren't responsible for the things some would have you believe. The fact that they risk their lives each and every day dealing with people who would gladly kill them and other Americans and the fact that they do this with great restraint says a lot about their character, and that isn't "miniscule" by any measure. So no I don't support the abuse and the attacks on out soldiers by foreign combatants, and you shouldn't either, for several reasons.

How many guards have been raped or detained without trial?

Originally posted by Nygdan
How many guards have been raped or detained without trial?

Isn't that by definition what a government job is all about?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

I think this whole story is a non-issue. Like I said, show me how these detainees behave any differently than every prisoner in the US penal system.

*yawn*