Russia, Venezuela seal Su-30 deal; US unhappy

Originally posted by WestPoint23
But yeah, I’ll drop this and we can specifically focus on the Su-30’s if you want, since this is the Aircraft forum.

[edit on 27-7-2006 by WestPoint23]

Smart move, kid. Good boy.

To all on this thread who are familiar with this news, was any training part of the package? When we sold the 77 F-14A Tomcats to Iran in the 1970s, training was part of the package. The Su-30s are the best fighters in active Russian service, so you'd think that Russia would at least offer to provide training.

This news is also a sign of the changing times. In the past, the Soviet Union used to rip off customers, literally, by supplying military systems that were far inferior than they originally were, mainly in order to sell in bulk. For example, when they sold the MiG-29 in the '80s, they sold them installed with a radar system much weaker than the Soviet versions had. As a result, there were clear differences between the originals and the "exports," as they were designated as such. The USSR also didn't sell specific systems that were highly advanced, unlike the U.S., which sold them at just about any price.

Now, it looks like Russia has changed its ways. Mainly due to its economy, it has become more willing to sell more advanced systems and technology, and no longer downgrades systems for export. In fact, the Indian Su-30MKI is actually more advanced than the Russian Su-30. As a result, I think as more and more Third World countries begin to become world players, like Venezuela, we will see the proliferation of advanced Russian hardware and it will make the future regional contingencies even more lethal thn they are now.

[edit on 27-7-2006 by sweatmonicaIdo]

I would assume that for Venezuela training, maintenance, supply and weapons would have been factored into the deal. I believe the Chinese also got training from the Russian when they bought some of their jets. And the US had a support staff that helped the Iranians when they received the Tomcats.

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
As a result, there were clear differences between the originals and the "exports," as they were designated as such. The USSR also didn't sell specific systems that were highly advanced, unlike the U.S., which sold them at just about any price.

Err… can you expand on this? Because I’m pretty sure the US reduces and or removes some capabilities from systems it exports, unless the costumer is a very reliable partner and or has a lot of lobbying power in Washington. Even then there are issues.

I'm tired of Chavez's accustions and propganda I kept seeing on cnn.com and foxnews.com that he kept telling his own people to expect the invasion of Venzeuala from U.S. and western countries. Move on alongside, Chavez, our F-22s are going to mow the sky over your country and sadly, whup all of your Su-30 forces due to your very poor quality of your air force training. Have fun watching fireballs fall out of sky over your head.

Just one more note about off topic posts...

please stay on topic

This is a good thread here...but the politics belong in PTS unless directly involved with this deal between Russia and Venezuela and Washington's reaction to it.

Ease up on the personal statements of outrage or thumping of cyber-chests

puh-leeze

Lmao the US is mad now. Oh well, I always did love the Sukhois. I don't think there will actually be an invasion of the US-it won't last long if there is. And I would definitely not talk about it internationally.

I wonder if this tale is even for real and will actually happen.

I kept hearing how Venezuela was supposed to be buying Mig29 for years but it never panned out.

I suppose the US only has itself to blame, if they'd suppied the spares and a couple of upgrades (or allowed a 3rd party to) then those (apparantly very lightly used) 21 F16's they sold Venezuela would probably still be flying and no-one would have turned a hair.

It seems to me to be as plain as day, when it's the US selling these weapons projects (and a mere 24 aircraft is hardly a huge deal) it's great but if it's anyone else, especially the Russians, it's cause for 'worry' or worse.

24 Su30's isn't such a great big deal in offensive terms and certainly not such a vast increase in capability when considered with 21 of what were once 'full house' F16's.

perhaps this thread is better off under aircraft projects.

Anyway, here is some new stuff :

Russia Rejects U.S. Call to Reconsider USD 1 Bln Military Contracts With Venezuela

Russia’s defense minister rebuffed Wednesday the U.S. call to reconsider the $1 billion contract on supplies of military planes and helicopters to Venezuela.

According to the RIA Novosti news agency, Tom Casey, a deputy spokesman for the U.S. State Department said Tuesday that President George Bush’s administration wanted Russia to review the deals. He said the weapons purchases Venezuela planned exceeded the country’s demands and did not contribute to regional stability.

full article here >> www.mosnews.com...

That pretty much ensures that this deal will go through.

However the version of the Su-30 that Venezuela chooses would make a large difference. If they are of Su-30 MK configuration as shown in cn.white's pics, then venezuela IMHO would not have made the best decision. There are better sukhoi-30 configurations available with thrust vector control and electronically scanned Bars radar among other things at a cost which would be marginally higher when compared to the cost of a baseline Su-30.

The problem the US has, is that it would loose the control over arms it has in Latin America. Until very recently every purchase of arms in the region would had to have the American blessing). With the exception of CUBA, the US thinks of Latin America as its territory of influence. When the Bush government began, Latin America was neglected and was put at the bottom of the agenda. The lack on interest of Washington and the problems that their economic policies created in the region (it wasn't Washington's fault, but that was how it is perceived in the region), created an unrest with the USA, that made that some countries rebel and started to defy US supremacy on the region, mainly by returning to leftist policies and character driven governments emulating Fidel Castro in Cuba.

So the problem with Venezuela's purchase is not so much that the US would fear those planes if they decided to invade, which I don't think they would do, but the loosing of their power of influence in the region. During the 60's within the cold war, when faced similar problems, the US helped several right wing dictators to take power, but now they cannot do that, so in many ways their hands are tight.

The other problem with Venezuela is that the US believes that Chavez is helping the leftist Guerillas turned drug dealers in Colombia, and that a rearmament in Venezuela might help them in a war in which the US is putting a lot of money to fight.

Originally posted by OneMyrmidon
I'm tired of Chavez's accustions and propganda I kept seeing on cnn.com and foxnews.com that he kept telling his own people to expect the invasion of Venzeuala from U.S. and western countries. Move on alongside, Chavez, our F-22s are going to mow the sky over your country and sadly, whup all of your Su-30 forces due to your very poor quality of your air force training. Have fun watching fireballs fall out of sky over your head.

You know how Bush likes to keep pointing to terrorism as a bogeyman and excuse for everything he does? well, that's exactly what chavez is doing here as well.

Originally posted by OneMyrmidon
I'm tired of Chavez's accustions and propganda I kept seeing on cnn.com and foxnews.com that he kept telling his own people to expect the invasion of Venzeuala from U.S. and western countries. Move on alongside, Chavez, our F-22s are going to mow the sky over your country and sadly, whup all of your Su-30 forces due to your very poor quality of your air force training. Have fun watching fireballs fall out of sky over your head.

So you agree with Chavez that a US invasion might happen?

Random Hero I would respond to your post but because I don’t want to go, I wont. So again, can we focus on the deal and more specifically the weapon systems involved!? Thanks.

Keeping to the topic...

More details have emerged. The Venezuelan Su-30's will be of the same configuration as the Su-30 MKI.

Venezuela last week signed a $1.3 billion arms deal with Russia, under which it will acquire 24 Sukhoi Su-30MKI multirole fighters and 30 Mil helicopters. Moscow approved the sale despite last-minute pressure from the USA to reconsider.

The Su-30MKI purchase represents the largest part of the 27 July contract. The aircraft will be delivered in a configuration similar to those already in service with the Indian air force. The deal also covers the provision of an extensive armaments package including beyond-visual-range air-to-air missiles and precision-guided air-to-surface weapons, plus spare parts and crew training.

President Hugo Chavez of Venezuela has signalled that the first batch of six fighters will arrive in the country by December. Sources suggest the new deal with Moscow also includes an option to acquire another 30 Su-30MKIs to replace Venezuela's Dassault Mirage 50 fighters. ■ Caracas is also discussing the potential purchase of 14 Su-39 strike aircraft from Russia to equip the Venezuelan navy's first maritime interdiction squadron.

Full >>

The 'I' in 'Su-30 MKI' stands for 'India', so i am still wondering how Venezuela will use Su-30 MKI aircrafts. Hopefully they will name it Su-30 MKV soon.

Here is a note : 'Su' stands for a production fighter designed by the USSR/Russia's famed Sukhoi Design Bureau. 'MK' is a Russian acronym for Mordernised-Commercial (not 'Multirole') while 'I' stands for Indiski(India) in the Su-30MKI.

The Su-30 MKI has Indian, French and Israeli avionics, electronic warfare units, flight control systems, processors, display units, etc onboard it in addition to the Russian stuff, and most surely the Venezuelan Su-30 will not feature them.

Nevertheless, with a N011M Bars electronically scanned radar, Thrust Vectoring engines, R-77 BVRAAM's the Venezuelan Su-30's will sure pack a punch.

The Su-39's mentioned are perhaps references made to the some variant of the Su-24.

[edit on 1/8/06 by Stealth Spy]

No, Su-39 is an upgraded Su-25(also known as Su-25T), not Su-24

The planes will probaly be in the malaysian MKM confirguration without the extra israeli and french equipment

It might included upgraded engines like the ones chinas J-10s are using and might feature a better feature in later blocks if there are more orders

Originally posted by chinawhite
The planes will probaly be in the malaysian MKM confirguration without the extra israeli and french equipment

It might included upgraded engines like the ones chinas J-10s are using and might feature a better feature in later blocks if there are more orders

"Without" here meaning that this equipment will be replaced by Russian equipment, not that the planes will lack it altogether

China, what version of the engine are the J-10's using, I thought it was the regular AL-31F which was to be replaced by a local copy with a somewhat lower thrust (also to be used on J-11), WP-13 if I'm not mistaken?

I am a little puzzled that Ugo plans to use Su-39's(a tank killer) for maritime interdiction, the Su-30 I think, with its far greater range, payload and with "Moskit" missiles is a much better choice if you want to do some damage to an 'invading' carrier

Su-30's eh? Raptor chow!

Just feeding them by the buckets.

Alright, on a more serious note, I don't think Venezuela has much to worry about when it comes to the U.S. invading, but it's not a bad idea to strengthen your military when a country does invade, but I think that the air power would help more when it comes to Venezuela holding S. America under a dictatorship, that's all I can see Chavez wanting the aircraft for, to control other nations.

Those numbers are not enough to prevent an attack by the US, but they are enough to enforce his fist on poorer countries who lack the technological advances required to fight such military hardware.

Shattered OUT...

The only country that Chavez could attempt to attack would be Colombia. It's other neighbours are Brazil and the French Guyana which I don't think he will even try to bother...

And about Colombia, well is the closest US ally on the sub-continent, so I bet that if it turns out that Caves wants to use those planes against Colombia and its group of Mirage V and Kfir, I'm sure the US would sell to Colombia either F-16's or F-18's to counter the MIG's.

Originally posted by carcharodon
The only country that Chavez could attempt to attack would be Colombia. It's other neighbours are Brazil and the French Guyana which I don't think he will even try to bother...

And about Colombia, well is the closest US ally on the sub-continent, so I bet that if it turns out that Caves wants to use those planes against Colombia and its group of Mirage V and Kfir, I'm sure the US would sell to Colombia either F-16's or F-18's to counter the MIG's.

What MiGs?

Venezuela has MiGs?

Shattered OUT...

Originally posted by Pazo

I am a little puzzled that Ugo plans to use Su-39's(a tank killer) for maritime interdiction, the Su-30 I think, with its far greater range, payload and with "Moskit" missiles is a much better choice if you want to do some damage to an 'invading' carrier

The "Maritime Interdiction" role with anti-ship misiles is not suited to the Su-39 due to lack of radar (although podded radars are an option considered for the Su-25 series) although in a coastal defense role with other missiles it's quite potent and it is proably better suited to anti-drugs running role than the US F-16s currently working that area (not from Venezeuala BTW). The Peruvians have used the Su-25 in the anti-drugs-running role with great success (and some mistakes).

But another thing, the Su-30 CANNOT sensibly carry the Moskit missile - the Su-33 version has been shown with it but it is widely regarded as unrealistic. Instead "Krypton" missiles are more likely.

[edit on 2-8-2006 by planeman]

Originally posted by ShatteredSkies

Originally posted by carcharodon
The only country that Chavez could attempt to attack would be Colombia. It's other neighbours are Brazil and the French Guyana which I don't think he will even try to bother...

And about Colombia, well is the closest US ally on the sub-continent, so I bet that if it turns out that Caves wants to use those planes against Colombia and its group of Mirage V and Kfir, I'm sure the US would sell to Colombia either F-16's or F-18's to counter the MIG's.

What MiGs?

Venezuela has MiGs?

Shattered OUT...

SUkhois my bad sorry