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Russia, Venezuela seal Su-30 deal; US unhappy

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posted on Jul, 22 2006 @ 01:59 AM
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MOSCOW - Russia has struck a deal worth more than $1 billion to supply fighter jets and helicopters to Venezuela, Russian Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov said on Friday.

“The contract was concluded ... for the delivery of 30 Su-30 fighter aircraft and the delivery of the same number of helicopters,” state-owned Rossiya television showed Ivanov saying.

Venezuela’s President Hugo Chavez is buying the high-performance Sukhoi fighter jets to replace his government’s F-16 jets. The United States has asked Moscow to reconsider the aircraft contract. Chavez says he is preparing his armed forces for a U.S. invasion. He has already taken delivery of a big consignment of Russian Kalashnikov automatic rifles.



Full Article >>

The "invasion" is unlikely to happen anytime in the near future, but can 30 Su-30's and 'copters stop it


Not very long ago the Venezuelean prez disclosed his intentions of selling the "to be replaced" F-16's to Iran, China and Cuba
(link)

[edit on 22/7/06 by Stealth Spy]




posted on Jul, 22 2006 @ 02:03 AM
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Damn stealth spy you have been one busy hombre!!!

Not one but two really pertinent and informative posts on the topics that need to be covered....

This really is a slow beat of the drum for war in the latin americas.... all that oil and all that anti americanism - just what will be the fall out if they sell the f-16's to Iran???

Great post.



posted on Jul, 22 2006 @ 05:01 AM
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Two planes have already arrived to demostrate their capbilities. Both are Su-30MKs which are similar to the aircraft china has. So its main role should be Ais superioty while it can carry guided missiles like the Kh-59

A few days before venezuela's independence day


501 Performing some manuvers



Larger pictures
502
501

And heres a video of them performing
youtube.com...



posted on Jul, 26 2006 @ 05:51 PM
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Chavez in my opinion is overly paranoid right now. The USA has to mucn problems to be facing and trying to solve and us invading Venezuela is a little exagerated. With 30 Su-30s I doubt it can stop an invasion



posted on Jul, 26 2006 @ 07:07 PM
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Please, Chavez has found a niche for himself and is using it to further his goals. Repeating once every few months or so that the US is ready to invade him, LMAO. Ok Mr. Chavez whatever keeps your people in check and you in power. And what's Russia's cut in this? Well besides the obvious of course, money and a new customer/"partner", they want to expand into what has largely been a US sphere of influence, Latin America. Any ground Putin can gain there while making money off of it and making it look like he’s "sticking it" to US is a big gain for Russia. Nothing but a politically calculated move by both countries, easy to see through. Like 30 Su-30 airframes by themselves are going to defend Venezuela from a real US invasion, it would be Gulf War - Air War Volume 2. :shk:


[edit on 26-7-2006 by WestPoint23]



posted on Jul, 26 2006 @ 08:44 PM
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Well it seems that Chavez needs to get armed and armed well to take care of his countries resources against the terror that is fighting in the world.


He needs to hurry up and go nuclear.



posted on Jul, 26 2006 @ 11:52 PM
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Originally posted by WestPoint23
Please, Chavez has found a niche for himself and is using it to further his goals. Repeating once every few months or so that the US is ready to invade him, LMAO. Ok Mr. Chavez whatever keeps your people in check and you in power. And what's Russia's cut in this? Well besides the obvious of course, money and a new customer/"partner", they want to expand into what has largely been a US sphere of influence, Latin America. Any ground Putin can gain there while making money off of it and making it look like he’s "sticking it" to US is a big gain for Russia. Nothing but a politically calculated move by both countries, easy to see through. Like 30 Su-30 airframes by themselves are going to defend Venezuela from a real US invasion, it would be Gulf War - Air War Volume 2. :shk:


I agree with this assessment 100%. Chavez, like every other politician on the planet is using whatever tools that are in his belt to retain power.

Though personally, I'd be more wary of Morales instead... (that is, if there are indeed any serious threats to worry about in S. America
)

[edit on 26-7-2006 by sardion2000]



posted on Jul, 27 2006 @ 12:09 AM
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Originally posted by WestPoint23
Please, Chavez has found a niche for himself and is using it to further his goals. Repeating once every few months or so that the US is ready to invade him, LMAO. Ok Mr. Chavez whatever keeps your people in check and you in power. And what's Russia's cut in this? Well besides the obvious of course, money and a new customer/"partner", they want to expand into what has largely been a US sphere of influence, Latin America. Any ground Putin can gain there while making money off of it and making it look like he’s "sticking it" to US is a big gain for Russia. Nothing but a politically calculated move by both countries, easy to see through. Like 30 Su-30 airframes by themselves are going to defend Venezuela from a real US invasion, it would be Gulf War - Air War Volume 2. :shk:


[edit on 26-7-2006 by WestPoint23]


Read what you just wrote to see if it really means much of anything.

First off, the only way Gulf War - Air War Volume 2 would happen is if it was August 2, 1990 and Iraq invaded Kuwait.

Given that, the only way for such a scenario you presented occuring is if the U.S. actually invaded Venezuela. So this is in the hands of our president and future presidents, not Chavez. For a patriotic boy, you just made the U.S. look like the aggressor by saying the above.

Also, if you know anything about building a military, unless you have a blank check, it is extremely difficult to strengthen your military with one swing. It takes decades. The 30 Su-30 airframes is just a start. Of course you can't defend against a U.S. invasion, you're not Carlton Meyer for stating that. Chavez is well aware of that. Therefore, I don't see how any of your (usual) emotionally-approached diatribe is of any relevance on the matter, as Venezuela is not asking for an invasion nor is the U.S. putting Venezuela high on its hit list.

I'll say it again. Venezuela is not asking for an invasion. The U.S. is not preparing an invasion. Your statement? Only fantasy-world relevance.

So, what were you really (not) trying to say? :shk:

[edit on 27-7-2006 by sweatmonicaIdo]



posted on Jul, 27 2006 @ 01:28 AM
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Someone made this thread as a political thread. I just wondered why US should be unhappy, even Charves got Su-30 though? F-22 has already enter service, the Su-30 only is a food for powder!



posted on Jul, 27 2006 @ 07:51 AM
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Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
Read what you just wrote to see if it really means much of anything.


"Means much of anything"? It’s my assessment of the situation.


Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
First off, the only way Gulf War - Air War Volume 2 would happen is if it was August 2, 1990 and Iraq invaded Kuwait.


You know what I meant, don’t be a pain.

As for the rest of your post, er… what were you trying to say? That Venezuela has legitimate reasons to arm itself against an imaginary aggressor? As you state the US has no plans to invade Venezuela so why does Chaves keep stating that it does? BTW, if you think there isn’t an ulterior motive behind Venezuela’s and Russia’s "business" deal then you’re not paying attention.



posted on Jul, 27 2006 @ 07:59 AM
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Motive in these deals is pretty simple:
USA screwed up Venezuelan AF by refusing to supply spare parts, right? So Venezuela sifted to a more reliable provider insted, no big deal.


All countries need an Air Force and ease of maintenance is a big issue, so i don't understand the fuzz about this, smart move by chavez and not a bad one from Russian side too...



posted on Jul, 27 2006 @ 09:03 AM
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Originally posted by WestPoint23
That Venezuela has legitimate reasons to arm itself against an imaginary aggressor?




So you feel you can dictate who is allowed to arm themselves and who is not?


There has been accusations leveled at CIA supported attempted coups to get the socialists out and the hardcore capitalists back in power in Venezuela. It would be no surprise, the CIA does have a history of it after all...


I would expect Chavez is trying to position Venezuela in a position where it doesn't have to succumb to any 'strong-arm' tactics by the US administration. They don't have to be capable of winning a war to deter one


[edit on 27-7-2006 by kilcoo316]



posted on Jul, 27 2006 @ 09:12 AM
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Originally posted by WestPoint23
As for the rest of your post, er… what were you trying to say? That Venezuela has legitimate reasons to arm itself against an imaginary aggressor? As you state the US has no plans to invade Venezuela so why does Chaves keep stating that it does? BTW, if you think there isn’t an ulterior motive behind Venezuela’s and Russia’s "business" deal then you’re not paying attention.


In case you haven't noticed, the U.S. is one of over 100 countries in the entire world. Venezuela's security can be potentially threatened by any number of countries. As a country begins to become a world player, one of its first priorities is to strengthen its ability to wage war. It doesn't need a threat to do so, just as you and I would never expect the U.S. to get rid of its military completely just because everyone is our friend.

Its basic international politics. Its rational. Not emotional.

I never said there wasn't an ulterior motive. You're not paying attention.

[edit on 27-7-2006 by sweatmonicaIdo]



posted on Jul, 27 2006 @ 09:38 AM
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Originally posted by kilcoo316
So you feel you can dictate who is allowed to arm themselves and who is not?


Nope, just don’t think that they should falsely accuse another country in order to justify and or excuse buying 30 Su-30’s.


Originally posted by kilcoo316
I would expect Chavez is trying to position Venezuela in a position where it doesn't have to succumb to any 'strong-arm' tactics by the US administration.


IMO He doesn’t need to, and I doubt the Su-30’s are for that, but if he insists, fine.

[edit on 27-7-2006 by WestPoint23]



posted on Jul, 27 2006 @ 10:02 AM
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Originally posted by WestPoint23

IMO He doesn’t need to, and I doubt the Su-30’s are for that, but if he insists, fine.


Wellll.....

www.venezuelanalysis.com...


Porter Goss, the Director of the United States Central Intelligence Agency (“CIA”) named Venezuela as the leading Latin American nation to be alarmed about in 2005. In testimony before the U.S.
Senate Select Committee on Intelligence regarding “Global Intelligence Challenges 2005: Meeting Long-Term Challenges with a Long-Term Strategy”, Goss classified Venezuela as a “potential area for instability” for this year.


www.zmag.org...

www.wsws.org...

www.commondreams.org...


The U.S. government knew of an imminent plot to oust Venezuela's leftist president, Hugo Chávez, in the weeks prior to a 2002 military coup that briefly unseated him, newly released CIA documents show, despite White House claims to the contrary a week after the putsch.

Yet the United States, which depends on Venezuela for nearly one-sixth of its oil, never warned the Chávez government, Venezuelan officials said.

The Bush administration has denied it was involved in the coup or knew one was being planned. At a White House briefing on April 17, 2002, just days after the 47-hour coup, a senior administration official who did not want to be named said, "The United States did not know that there was going to be an attempt of this kind to overthrow - or to get Chávez out of power."

Yet based on the newly released CIA briefs, an analyst said yesterday that did not appear to be the case.


www.democracynow.org.../11/29/1448220


Newly released CIA documents show the Bush administration – at the very least - knew about the plot to overthrow Venezuelan president Hugo Chavez weeks before the April 2002 military coup and did nothing to stop it.

Until now the Bush administration has claimed it had no role in the failed coup and didn't know one was being planned.


www.iacenter.org...



www.cepr.net...


WASHINGTON, December 8. When it comes to Venezuela's rocky diplomatic relations with the United States, Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez is usually given the blame. His frequent denunciations of U.S. "intervention" in Venezuela are taken as indications that he is hostile to America.

But the evidence is mounting that Washington is the party responsible for friction with our third largest oil supplier. Last week the New York Times reported on recently released CIA documents showing that our government had advance knowledge of the military coup that briefly overthrew Venezuela's democratic government on April 11-13 of 2002. The Bush Administration not only failed to warn Venezuela of the coup, but actually pretended that it wasn't a coup at all.

"They lied about not knowing about coup threats before April 11th, and when they claimed that the coup was a popular uprising when they knew that it was actually being planned for weeks," said U.S. Congressman Jose Serrano of New York City today.

The documents (available at www.venezuelafoia.info...), show clearly that the White House knew that there were detailed plans for a coup in April, that these plans included arresting the President, and that "to provoke military action, the plotters might try to exploit unrest stemming from opposition demonstrations." That is exactly what happened on April 11.

Yet on April 12, White House spokesman Ari Fleischer gave the coup leaders' version of events -- that violence at the demonstrations had led to Chavez' "resignation," and that the government was responsible for the violence. "The results of these events are now that President Chavez has resigned the presidency. Before resigning, he dismissed the vice president and the cabinet, and a transitional civilian government has been installed."

This false version of events allowed the Bush Administration to support the coup government, which proceeded to abolish Venezuela's constitution, General Assembly, and Supreme Court. The Administration reversed its support for the coup government the next day, after being diplomatically isolated.





No smoke without fire, eh?


[edit on 27-7-2006 by kilcoo316]

Edit to include 'ex' tags

[edit on 27-7-2006 by masqua]



posted on Jul, 27 2006 @ 10:14 AM
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Err… it’s our responsibility to take care of Chavez and to protect his office, since when? From what I’ve read we didn’t take part in the coup, perhaps Chavez should focus on those who did?



posted on Jul, 27 2006 @ 10:22 AM
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Originally posted by WestPoint23
Err… it’s our responsibility to take care of Chavez and to protect his office, since when? From what I’ve read we didn’t take part in the coup, perhaps Chavez should focus on those who did?



So you'd expect the CIA to actually de-classify documents that would intricate them in a coup attempt from anything less than 30-40 years ago? Bit naive don't you think


Anyway, we're getting political here, no doubt Fred or Masqua will be getting the shotguns out to warn us



posted on Jul, 27 2006 @ 10:23 AM
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Originally posted by WestPoint23
From what I’ve read we didn’t take part in the coup, perhaps Chavez should focus on those who did?



If i recall,
the coup involved army officals and opposition parties and leaders.



posted on Jul, 27 2006 @ 10:32 AM
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Originally posted by kilcoo316
So you'd expect the CIA to actually de-classify documents that would intricate them in a coup attempt from anything less than 30-40 years ago? Bit naive don't you think?


Err… You automatically presume that the CIA is involved, though I understand your reasons it’s a big assumption on your part, don’t you think?

But yeah, I’ll drop this and we can specifically focus on the Su-30’s if you want, since this is the Aircraft forum.

[edit on 27-7-2006 by WestPoint23]



posted on Jul, 27 2006 @ 10:50 AM
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Originally posted by kilcoo316
Anyway, we're getting political here, no doubt Fred or Masqua will be getting the shotguns out to warn us


Ka-Pow lol

The title for the thread actually refers to the political side of this story...so I was kind of expecting some politics being discussed on this topic. If it gets too political, a move to PTS might actually be beneficial for this thread.

What do you (as OP) think, Stealth Spy... would you want me to make the move?

The issue does straddle both Aircraft Projects, as well as Venezuelan, Russian and American Politics.




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