Crusades & Holy Alliances

Originally posted by Ivanova
It should be obvious that I am a Tsarist...

You are too modest, dear Ivanova. Nothing in your posts on this thread so far has been at all obvious.

All faithful Russian Orthodox Christians are Tsarist!

Any non-Tsarist Russian Orthodox Christians lurking out there to prove Ivanova wrong? Not that it's my fight, thank goodness.

But Ivanova, you have not explained why it is better to be a Tsarist than a democrat. And I am so eager to learn!

The truth is, I am going to say exactly what Bush and the government should understand. Cultures, and backgrounds breed different experiences thus causing different views on government. Personally I do not see what is so HORRIBLE with communism if there were no greedy people. Democracy/capitalism also has greedy people, but it also gives you room to rise.

You are right, in America, a socialist/communist will never win or even be recognized. They would be ostracized and looked down upon because in our culture, it is just not possible. The people living in America are used to specific things and many have the dream to be very rich and are influenced by materialism and glamour. Communism does not work in these kinds of settings. I don't think I could get used to settings that does not have this instated because I have lived here and am used to it. Boob jobs, lip jobs, gambling, sex, hollywood, new cars, hundreds of TV channels and shows, is just the norm in America. And now, increasingly, due to what people term as "americanisation", it is spreading.

Now, Putin is right, the American government with other powers do seem to have their own little crusade going on. And it should stop. I do not see Iraq becoming a second America, again it just doesn't seem possible. Just like America won't become a communist country. Now which is the best form of government? Utopian! hehe

On Monarchy - Vladika Averky

The idea of monarchy itself, in the return to which as
the historic and immemorial form for governing Russia
many rightly see salvation, is holy and dear to us not
for itself, but only insofar as it is supported by our
Orthodox faith and Church and insofar as our Tsar is
an "Orthodox Tsar," as we sing in our old national
anthem; insofar as He is not just formally and
officially, but in actual fact the First Son and also
the exalted Protector and Defender of the Orthodox
Faith and Church; insofar as He is really the
"Anointed of God" who has received special gifts of
grace in the Mystery of anointing performed over Him
by the Church to be the "King and Judge of the People
of God," as He himself confesses in the prayer He
reads before everyone in the church during his sacred
coronation. Therefore He enters the altar through the
royal doors and receives Holy Communion before the
holy throne of God as an equal of the other sacred
ministers, which, of course, could not be done by any
other monarch who was not Orthodox and who did not
respond to the demands of the Church, who was not
sanctified with grace by the Church.



This is decisively confirmed for us by the
ever-memorable Fr. John of Kronstadt, who said,

"Who places earthly kings on their thrones ?
He Who alone sits on the throne of fire from eternity,
and alone, in the true sense, rules over all creation
and heaven and earth with all the creatures which inhabit them.
From Him alone is royal power given to the kings of
the earth; He crowns them with the royal diadem...

Be silent, dreaming constitutionalists and
parliamentarians! `Depart from me, Satan! Thou art an
offense unto Me, for thou savourest not the things
that be of God, but those that be of men' (Matt.
16:23), said the Lord to Peter who denied Him. Depart
also, you who oppose God's command. It is not your
task to order the thrones of earthly kings. Away, bold
ones who do not know how to govern yourselves, but are
always quarreling with each other... Authority, power,
courage, and wisdom is given the Tsar from the Lord to
govern his subjects" (1907 Sermon)





[edit on 17-7-2006 by Ivanova]

Seriously Ivanova I have a serious question. Are you taking any medications or anything?

Originally posted by Astyanax
Maloy and Ivanova: since you both give a thumbs-down to democracy, could you please outline what sort of system of government you would prefer to live under instead, and tell us a little about why you would prefer it?

First- I do not give thumbs down to Democracy. Its a great and noble concept on paper. If you live in the US or Canada or Western Europe, were born to a relatively well-to-do family, are not handicapped in any way, and are not too lazy, you will probably get the best of Democracy, and you will love it. You will have a happy childhood, good education, right contacts, a good job, a large house, an annual week vacation in Hawaii, etc. Democracy (or rather capitalism) treated you well. But think of the people that are not priviledged to have what you have. What about millions of people who are born to poor families living in the ghetto, who have next to nothing to jump start their life. What about people will mental or physical disabilities, than will probably not excell to a point others would, and would not live such a good life. Capitalism is good to those who can keep up with it and who got a good head start. By everyone else is screwed- all out for themselves in the dog eat dog world.

As for Democracy in politics- as I said its perfect on paper. By what US has is far from the ideal concept. You have lobbies for the rich and powerful, who get to make the most decisions about candidates and policies. You have the Electorl College where a small group of elites decides who will get elected, so that the poor peasants don't have all of the control. You got stalemated policies, where nothing can ever get passed (think of the budget crisis under Clinton) because the two parties value their ego and partisanship above common good. You might have Republicans and Democrats, but they are all the same **** when it comes to foreign politics- how to make US stronger at the expense of others. You have corporations covertly ruling your country- even having the major say in such matters as going to war.

What US has is not a Democracy (in the sense of original concept)- it is a Corporate Capitalistic Globalization Apparatus, pretending to let the people have some say. Go ahead and VOTE- you have 2 choices both of whom support continued globalization through exploitation, and keeping in power those who are already in power- the rich.


What I am trying to argue is not that Democracy is wrong and should be given up on. I support no particular system of government- but rather a need to continue to experiment with different systems, or a combination of systems, or perhaps new system. Yes I am leaning towards Communism, in that it should not be abandoned just yet- but rather tried again in better conditions.

Communism has alot of appeal to many traditions and cultures around the world. Cultures in places like Asia and Africa have throughout history valued belonginess and playing a role in the community. There is no individuals being out for themselves, like lone wolves. Rather its a system that opperates successfully when everyone does their part without wanting the most for the themselves- a single machine that works well when all of its part do their job, rather than a scattering of small individual and primitive mechanisms. If you think about it opennly, communism might be more modern and complex than anything else. Capitalism is as simple as it gets- cavemen concept. Here is your cave go make your stuff. Here is my cave I where I make my stuff, and you can't enter it. And then we might trade if I like you stuff- if not then you can die from hunger. In communism, the two consolidate to make a single, but component but using judgement and input by everyone.

Ideally no one is left behind. If you are handicapped we'll find work for you. Everyone gets excess to top education. Everyone has a job. Everyone has the nearly same salary, unless your work is nore dangerous or hard- then you get an appropriate bonus. There is no situation like in US- where some football player or rapper makes millions, while a school teacher has to live in an appartment and take a bus to work. -Where billions are spend on sport teams and entertainment, while schools have to hold bake sale to buy new computers. Why not make Britney Spears or 50 Cent, or maybe Rumsfeld or Cheney or hold a bake sale to raise money for their new Ferrari or Carribean villa, or a new aircraft carrier. American public school education is attrocious compared with what even Russia has- I speak from experience. One could write the longest book in the world on communism and various politics. It is unrealistic to explain even basics in a single post, but these are things to think about.

In fact Capitalism has alot of stuff borrowed from communist idealogy. Trade Unions, to make employees (who make everything happen) better off. Consolidation of financial resources by banking organizations. Merging of large companies to gether all the knowledge in one place. All of this is similar with communist economics.

Originally posted by Astyanax
Communism is the god that failed. Failed gods don't get much respect.

Now of course you are going to say look at the failure of Communism in Soviet Union. Yes it failed. It failed because- 1. Bad leadership- specifically Stalin; 2. wrong conditions in the world- the World War followed by the Cold War. I am not even going to start on Stalin. As for the Cold War- it sucked out most of Russian resources, that could have been used to improve social and economic conditions. Because of American fear of Lenin, and constant aggression against anything authoritarian and anti-capitalist (Truman, McCarthy, Reagan, and many more), USSR was forced into the Cold War to hold out. Much of the resources went towards the military, and society was left behind. If the conditions and rulers were otherwise (ex. trotsky instead of Stalin), it might have worked otherwise.

But some things were good in the Soviet Union. If you had the brains and the will, you would get free top education. No matter you financial status, ethnicity, or background (except for isolated cases). You would almost always have work, food, a place to live, and a place to receive medical help. You would get enough money and free time to go on vacation within Soviet Union. Not everything was bad.

Continuing...

Most of the terrible living condition in ex Soviet Union you saw on tv or read about, occured because of the fall of communism. Under communism in Russia, you would always have retirement benefits. Summer camps, sport clubs, secondary education were free for all children. Immense progress was made in the fields of science and engineering, because people who otherwise would have never gotten the top education in the West, did get in the Soviet Union. Tens of thousands of Africans, Asians, South Americans, and Central Americans were invited to study and receive top professional education in Russia for next to nothing. I met some people when I lived in Dominican Republic for example, who becaume doctors and engineers by studying for free in Russia- and they were not implanted with Soviet propaganda as you might think. They came back to their country to practice their profession and even train others. They told me they studied together with Syrians, Vietnamese, Mongolians, and Peruvians. Now has US ever gave such free education to people of other regions. There were no millionaires keeping 20 Ferraris in the drive ways of each of their 10 villas, just because they were lucky to sing well or throw a ball across the field. Astronauts, movie stars, engineers, soldiers, fisherman and teachers were treated as equally contributing to society (ideally). You were not fired with envy because your neighbor had a lexus and you had a geo. Most important of all- teachers and professors got immense respect. They were considered almost equal to parents. To this day there is a well observed national holiday in Russia- Teachers Day. Would do American teachers get? Spit balls in their back, and the salary a nodge above minimum wage. No wonder primary education is so lagging in the US. Drugs were almost non existant. Violent crime and gangs were low and few compared with US- mostly because of good education.

Of course things were like that for only a small period of time (probably peaked under Brenzhnev). And there were countless of bad things to happen in Sovier Russia. Jews prosecuted alot, some regional ethnicities discriminated against, politicians who could get away with nearly anything, inferior consumer goods. Of course things like these are present even in democracies around the world. In no way am i trying to hide or denounce the terrible things that happened. But as I said most of the hardship was due to Stalin, WWII, and the Cold War.

Soviet Union was a Communism building progress- not Communism. It was greatly impeded by world events, and still achieved some successful things. And them due to building pressure from outside it collapsed- it gave in to US's democracy ideals. And look at the hardship throughout the 90's. It was arguably the worst period in Russia after WWII. Foreigners have no idea what the change was like. How much negative influence from the West- drugs, guns, mafiosos, oligarchs, etc. I cannot even estimate how many people lost their lives to drugs and murder. And now US is blaming Putin for trying to find a balance between what worked before (Communism and authoritarianism) and what demoralized and left the people so unimpressed after (democracy and capitalism). In the 90's people saw that democracy only seemed so good from far away, but up close it has the similar (if not worse) faults than Communism had.

The answer- Putin. An attempt to strike a balance in between. Find a common ground, and maybe achieve something better than just democracy or just communism- both very promising idealogies. And what does the West do? It denounces Putin as upsetting the fragile democracy in Russia. If only the West knew more about democracy themselves. What is in the future for Russia remain a mystery- and the West shouldn't be so quick to dismiss it as something negative.

Originally posted by Astyanax
Maloy, to answer the question "why no respect for communism", the answer is pretty straightforward, isn't it? Communism doesn't work. That's been proved over and over again, exhaustively, to the point where there is really no argument about it. Communism is a seductive ideology but you cannot implement it, because communism is contrary to human nature, and you can't change human nature. People have tried hard enough. Just doesn't work.

Democracy doesn't work either as I said. Just tell about your equality to firefighters, soldiers and teachers, as they watch the superstars and CEO's relax on their $20 million yatchs, with not a care in the world. People have not yet found a perfect government system. Communism crumbled as a work in progress, so don't be as quick to dismiss it. Capitalism plays on people's greed and strife for power, and only feeds the fire. Maybe there is some balance between the two systems, but the West is unwilling to compromise.

Instead of giving other political systems a chance, US declares war on them. UN resolutions, Axis of Evil, terror regimes, economic boycotts, military actions, covert coups are all ways meant to prevent these systems from flourishing. If its not democracy- it cannot be. Well it seems pretty obvious that democracy is heading down the ****hole, so whats next?

[edit on 17-7-2006 by maloy]

Maloy you definitely make sense, but it is my understanding that Russians don't want communism and would rather have democracy and capitalism? And I also am aware that some groups in Russia actually wanted Bush to talk to Putin about his undemocratic acts I guess.

I don't know what the obsession that this administration and other Western countries have about democracy. The correct term for America's government is a "Democratic-Republic". And yes maloy, we have no room to criticize everyone else because our government is by far not pure. I was speaking to my friend about this, and he replied that, "the American government may be corrupt, but it is probably one of the least corrupt. That is why people still want to come here, live here, and work here." Which is true. But still, dictating to other countries what they should and should not do is annoying, even to an American. Like why do Western countries care if Putin runs for a third term? So he changes the constitution, it is Russia's country!! Who cares?

I think some cultures just take a while to adopt, or cannot adopt. Some people may live in America and dislike it because it is a very very extreme capitalistic country. Like I said, in America the ideal state of being is being glamorous, beautiful, with a nice porsch and HOT house. In America there are ways to attain this. American culture is by far no the most ideal culture for everyone, it is ideal for Americans. This is why communism will not even be CONSIDERED in America. Now I do not know if communism will be given a chance in Russia again, I think Russians are pretty disenchanted by it and won't give it the light of day. But socialism perhaps.

Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor
Maloy you definitely make sense, but it is my understanding that Russians don't want communism and would rather have democracy and capitalism? And I also am aware that some groups in Russia actually wanted Bush to talk to Putin about his undemocratic acts I guess.

Oh believe me I do not speak for all of Russia. Politically Russia is far more diverse than US. It has the ultra-capitalists (pro American, pro corporate, no gov't involvement in business), it has Europe-like leftist Socialists (still democratic not communist type socialism), it has the old school communists (which I might add have for the first time since 2000 grew in membership), it has the militaristic fascists and nationalists (example: Zhirinovski- head of probably the most entertaining party in Russia), and of course it has "The Putin" party (classify it as you wish- no clear classification as of now). It even has the Tsarists as Ivanova indicated. You are free to join and lobby any of the organizations I just mentioned, but if you reallt want to succeed you will need to kiss Putin's ass obviously. Most of these parties are represented in the Duma, have official memberships, and are actual organizations not some hobby clubs. US only has Democrats and Republicans, who barely have any differences regarding foreign and global policies. Russian politics are far more interesting and promising IMO because of all of these parties. And Americans say there is no political tolerance in Russia- bull. Yes Putin is the "tsar" now, but all that could quickly change. Everyone has seats in the Duma.

Yes there are some groups that do not support Putin, and rather improve relations with US. These are the capitalists. Mostly oligarchs, business owners, and rich expatriate Russians who came back to Russia after the fall of USSR, who all want a slice of the WTO cake. However they do not have that much support among ordinary people. Similar party did win the Ukrainian elections under Yuschenko, but are already splitting up.

Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor
That is why people still want to come here, live here, and work here." Which is true. But still, dictating to other countries what they should and should not do is annoying, even to an American. Like why do Western countries care if Putin runs for a third term? So he changes the constitution, it is Russia's country!! Who cares?

Yes people want to come and live in US. It has all the glamour of capitalism, and everyone can dream of becoming a millionaire. Well once you get into US, and you actually learn the internal problems, your views change quiet quickly. I am more concerned about US' future however, and that it might turn from midway democracy into a pure corporate militaristic empire. But as with other countries, I respect and aknowledge America's right to sort its own problems out without foreign interference, and it would help if most Americans felt the same about other countries. US has alot of smart people to know where its going, and control its own faith. So let other countries also control their faith, without sledgehammering democracy into them. So I agree with you there completely.

And Putin will not run for third term in next elections BTW. However there is nothing in the Russian constitution that states that he cannot run for the third term entirely- only that he cannot do it in a row. So there might be a temporary four year puppet, and then guess who is back! And it is America and the West that see it such a tragedy if someone remains in power for a long long time. For Russians, and many people in the world it is not so. As long as economy prospers, no wars take place, and no one is prosecuted unfairly, everything works. If it ain't broke- no need to fix it.

Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor
American culture is by far no the most ideal culture for everyone, it is ideal for Americans. This is why communism will not even be CONSIDERED in America. Now I do not know if communism will be given a chance in Russia again, I think Russians are pretty disenchanted by it and won't give it the light of day. But socialism perhaps.

Because it is ideal, doesn't mean that people shouldn't at least explore alternatives. Isn't that what being tolerant is all about. Let other be, and take a chance to learn about them. But communism is outright hated in US, especially in ultraconservative regions like Texas and high profile universities. Why? There seemed to be some healthy fascination with it in the 70's, and later even the 90's. But after 9/11 its all down the drain and back to ultra-pro-democracy. Well as I said its up to Americans. If they hate communism so be it- their culture.

Alot of member of the current communist party in Russia are young people (18-25). Of course alot are older generation too, but the youth promises at least a future for the communist party. Also Putin's party has good relations with the communist party. What people are more disenchanted with is not communism, but the promised democracy- which proved to be misleading and even more corrupt.

I personally would not want communism in America. It is a nice idea, but it is just not how I picture America. Now a corporate militaristic nation is more of how I see things A corporate militaristic nation really would not be such a huge step from how we are at the moment.

A lot of people distrust each other's country [between US and Russia]. This is one of the reasons why I think Russia is "friends" with China. I mean who else do they have to ally itself with when NATO is surrounding the countries? But Russia must understand that if both Russia and China are looking to become superpowers, China will be the one who rises. I think Putin is pretty smart, and realizes he cannot trust China fully. People like toolman and others talk about how great the CCP is, and China isn't a threat, I say bs . I think there will be a time when we have to pick between the lesser of evils.

I wish Russia & US could be really good friends, like I have stated before. It just never seems to be a possibility.

Anyway thank you for giving me a play by play of Russian politics it was interesting