No-757 Theory: Disinformation

I thought this forum could use some counter-balance to the 757/No 757 threads.

Two positions on what happened at the Pentagon on 9/11 are dominant in this forum:

• A) A Boeing 757 hit the Pentagon on 9/11 as per the official story.
  
• B) Something other than a Boeing 757 hit the Pentagon on 9/11, whether a different kind of plane, missile, etc.

But here's a third option for you guys:

• C) What did or did not hit the Pentagon is irrelevant and/or deliberate disinformation.

This position is heard less on these forums, as it seems the members that fall closer to this third option don't stick so much around the Pentagon threads to voice this view.

Notice that the idea I've attempted to summarize in 'C' isn't necessarily only that the no-757 theory is disinformation, but that it's more irrelevant than other aspects of 9/11. The no-757 arguments are among the shoddiest and hardest to support of any arguments from either camp regarding 9/11 (rivaled only by the pancake collapse stuff, lol ).

Also realize that none of this precludes the idea that foul play was involved with the Pentagon attack, or that it was an inside job or that there are other problems with the official story. The issue here is only with the airliner impact, or lack thereof.

What first dragged me into 9/11 conspiracy discussion was a video I found somewhere online. It was... (the now infamous)... In Plane Site. I hadn't really taken a very good look at any of the arguments presented on that video, but the implications of what this guy was saying put me in complete awe. I was totally drawn in to looking further into this stuff, and initially did go with the no-757 crowd. But, and I don't mean to sound preachy or anything, personally, if I find an argument is logically defective, or isn't soundly supported, I tend to drop it and won't use it again to save myself some embarrassment. That's what initially drove me out of the Pentagon threads.

Jim Hoffman, a 9/11 researcher whose work is drawn heavily upon in the work of Steven Jones and other contributing members of Scholars for 9/11 Truth, also initially went with the no-757 crowd. His site, 9/11 Research, which started out for personal use by Hoffman, reflected this for a bit. But over the years since 9/11, watching the movement unfoled, Hoffman has renounced this school of thought, claiming that it's real purpose is to serve as disinformation.

To poison the wells. Damage control.

Build the public attention to a climax, centered around the Pentagon. Then release the tapes. Movement killed. Forget everything else. All debunked by mere association to the no-757 conspiracy theory.

Fortunately enough, I don't think the Pentagon has quite the predominant role in 9/11 conspiracy discussion, overall, as it did a few years ago. Otherwise, the above would sound much more devastating to the movement for us option C'ers.

But regardless, the unanswered questions relating to 9/11 (quite a good many important ones remaining to this day, as evidenced by the very existence of scholarly organizations like Scholars for 9/11 Truth) are too important to even be partially lopped off in a scenario like that.

Here Jim Hoffman raises some issues in an effort to get us to consider this third option:

The idea that no 757 crashed at the Pentagon is easily the most controversial and divisive issue among researchers of the 9/11/01 attacks.

[...]

The controversy over this issue has eclipsed the many documented facts linking the 9/11/01 attacks to insiders. Defenders of the official story have seized on this issue as representative of the gullibility and incompetence of 9/11 "conspiracy theorists."

WhatReallyHappened.com also appears to endorse this position here:

So, why would anyone work so hard to try to establish such an obviously phony straw man?

The truth is that the US Government's credibility within the nation and around the world has hit an all time low. Traffic at this website has quadrupled in just the last week alone, with about 50,000 accesses per day of the main article page. The US Government has had a long history of trying to trip up critics of the government with phony planted stories, in order to discredit and embarrass them. Such certainly seems to be the case now.

911review.com also supports this view here, but I think there's been some controversy regarding that particular site. I also have to wonder when the last time I heard Prof. Jones argue the no-757 theory was. :-/

Some other things to ponder:

"Leaked" DoD frames of Pentagon impact are missing something quite noticeable -- a plane. The same frames are officially regurgitated this year, as if the DoD was trying to remind us.

The no-757 theory began popularization around the same time that a scandal linking 9/11 to Israeli spies was beginning to skim the surface of major media networks, and then quickly resubmerge:

Note the timing of the phony story, appearing just at the right moment to distract attention away from the Israeli spy scandal, right when the United States, even as it tries to conceal the existence of the spy ring, rounds up the Israelis and deports them..
[...]
"Evidence linking these Israelis to 9/11 is classified. I cannot tell you about evidence that has been gathered. It's classified information."
-- US official quoted in Carl Cameron's Fox News report on the Israeli spy ring. 02/21/02

Fox News, alone of all the media, actually ran the story as a four part broadcast, and put the story up on its web site. Then, without explanation, Fox News erased the story from their web site and have never mentioned it again. CNN followed by "Orwellizing" their report of the two hour advance warning of the WTC attacks sent to Odigo employees. But far more telling is the admission made by a US Official in part one of the Fox News report that hard evidence existed linking the events of 9/11 not to Arab Muslims, but to some of the more than 200 Israeli spies arrested both before and after 9/11, but that this evidence had been CLASSIFIED.

Wanna see if we can get a discussion going on this? It might turn out to be more enlightening than the other Pentagon-related threads. Who knows.

I wish people would stop making reference to a missile hitting the Pentagon. I mean missiles don't have engines.

It was not a missile damnit!

I know you yourself probably aren't thinking that bsbspray but for everyone else.

The Pentagon isn't disinformation, I have been investigating this for along time and I am alot more educated on the subject than most people. A Boeing 757 didn't hit the Pentagon.

However you are right that one day they may release a video showing a Boeing 757, however it won't be a real video, it will be faked just like many of the photographs at the Pentagaon were.

Check

911studies.com...

To be honest I don't think the Pentagon is something that needs to be focused on. So I don't care if we drop the subject what.

What we need is an EXPERT to PROVE the wreckage found at the Pentagon does or does not come from a Boeing 757.

This is the only thing that we can really use to prove for a fact that a Boeing did or didn't hit the Pentagon. (Of course assuming all the photos of the wreckage weren't photoshopped.)

And No I don't want to debate that (that isn't what this thread is about.)

If a Boeing 757 hit the Pentagon there would be no need to photoshop anything. Especially certain lamp poles laying down that in other photos are perfectly fine!

The Israeli Spy Ring was a very serious issue in which most Americans doesn't have a clue about and/or refuse to acknowledge it once the infomation is given since it's not Arabs being accused.

From the five dancing Israelis to the PM of Israel comment about it(the attacks) being "good" for Israel and America relationship tells us that there's more to this story.


[edit on 6-7-2006 by 2smooth4ya]

bsbray11, great post.

Yes, indeed a very interesting point of discussion which has not seen a lot of daylight.

A place to start would be Justin Raimondo´s Antiwar.com

In an astonishing story in the Bergen Record, we learn that 5 men described as "Israeli tourists," were picked up 8 hours after the WTC attack, "carrying maps linking them to the blasts." "...[S]ources close to the investigation said they found other evidence linking the men to the bombing plot. 'There are maps of the city in the car with certain places highlighted,' the source said. 'It looked like they're hooked in with this. It looked like they knew what was going to happen when they were at Liberty State Park.'" According to this account, the 5 "tourists" had been picked up by local police after receiving the following alert from the FBI:

"Vehicle possibly related to New York terrorist attack. White, 2000 Chevrolet van with New Jersey registration with 'Urban Moving Systems' sign on back seen at Liberty State Park, Jersey City, NJ, at the time of first impact of jetliner into World Trade Center. Three individuals with van were seen celebrating after initial impact and subsequent explosion. FBI Newark Field Office requests that, if the van is located, hold for prints and detain individuals."

BTW: Odium posted the following last year on ATS:
Was 9/11 conducted by the United States Government and Israel?

[edit on 6-7-2006 by HardToGet]

Rumsfeld once let it "slip" that a missile had hit the pentagon. I wonder if he said that on purpose just to dilute the truth even further.

One thing is for certain, the government wants us to argue over what really hit the pentagon, otherwise they would have released better footage.

I have thought this myself.

Among the "normal" people in society and the media (I consider us ATS members special ) the pentagon story is almost a non-issue. My parents for example accepted the initial explanation because the media never really talked about it (well didn't talk about it nearly as much as WTC). I can see the lack of release of the video as disinfo for us conspiracy junkies, but for the main public I don't think they care. Noninfo and a simple government explanation was enough.

Btw good thinking OP.

Originally posted by freakyty
One thing is for certain, the government wants us to argue over what really hit the pentagon, otherwise they would have released better footage.

Yup that is one helll of a point you bring up there.

IF the official version is true, WHY doesn't the goverment just release all the footage taken from various non pentagon security camera's and shut up an entire army of Pentagon sceptics, it would realy be that easy... yet they gave us 5 lousy frames on which you can't realy see anything, thus fueling the conspiracies even more.

I argee with freakyty that the US government WANTS us to argue over this thing which they could clear up by releasing actual video footage, not 5 frames of "nothing"

Yeah, I want them to release the videos from the gas station and hotel cams. But they release one of the worst videos I ever seen with horrible quality. pfff

Originally posted by 2smooth4ya
The Israeli Spy Ring was a very serious issue in which most Americans doesn't have a clue about and/or refuse to acknowledge it once the infomation is given since it's not Arabs being accused.

From the five dancing Israelis to the PM of Israel comment about it(the attacks) being "good" for Israel and America relationship tells us that there's more to this story.

Ah, that's good that someone else is paying attention. And somewhereI remember there were allegations of israeli's using forged passports, if I am not mistaken. (in the names of some of the alleged terrorists on that day)

Anyway regarding 9/11, I would like to know more about Flight 93, and Building 7. I those two events have not been fully explored, while everyone was pre-occupied with the twin towers and the pentagon.


2 cents. Sorry for throwing this in here, I know I've wandered off of the topic.

Originally posted by aelphaeis_mangarae
A Boeing 757 didn't hit the Pentagon.

One question then... where is the missing plane and the people on board? Whoops! Forgot to cover that part of your "research"


PS - Staring at pics on the internet IS NOT research

[edit on 13-7-2006 by donk_316]

where has all the evidence gone? don't know but does that mean nothing happened?

of course not. disappearing of aircraft and passengers happens naturally (think Bermuda triangle) sometimes they're not found. does that mean they didn't crash? of course not. in the same vein, killing all passengers on a remote military base then scrapping or scuttling the plane wouldn't be that hard. it's not a game breaker at all.

[edit on 13-7-2006 by Long Lance]

And you'll get the body remains into the Pentagon (along with 757 components) how?

Dude. Props and a TWAT vote for you!

I have said this in past posts, and I still say it. I believe all this debate over what hit the Pentagon and missile strikes ect smells of disinformation fed to spread chaos in the 9/11 truth seekers movement.

Its one reason I don't really spend much time in the 9/11 forum anymore. Because it seems every thread is arguing over whether or not a missile or 757 hit the Pentagon. The key issues, the things that are the REAL red flags that there was a high level conspiracy in the government get ignored. Instead, time and resources are wated arguing over this issue, which really isn't the core of the whole thing.

I do not care if a plane, train, automobile, missile, or mutant banana from Neptune hit the Pentagon. There are far more glaring red flags that the offical story stinks, that spending all this time arguing over what hit the pentagon is getting us nowhere. Because the conspiracy still exists, and it is still as bad regardless of what you think hit.

I think the disinfo angle is on the money. You get a WATS for this one.

Frankly I think, and have always thought, many of the theories surrounding 9-11 are deliberate disinformation to "poison the well" as you say. The idea is to spread so much nonsense that serious attempts to look at the events of 9-11 are thrown off track. Honestly it's one of the reason I don't spend much time in the 9-11 conspiracy threads, even though I am convinced that elements of the US government (and the Israeli national security apparatus as well) knew what was going to happen beforehand, and either ignored it or deliberately took steps to make sure the attacks went ahead as planned.

I think many of the 9-11 theories are pure bunk - remote controlled airliners, Global Hawks hitting the Pentagon etc... I am quite skeptical of the WTC controlled demolition theories as well, frankly. Most of these theories require huge numbers of people - thousands - all of whom would have to be in on it, all of whom would have to be counted on 100% to keep their moutsh shut. All of whom would have to operate in perfect secrecy. In the real world, the more people involved in a conspiracy, the more likely it is to be exposed.

These theories are also excessively baroque and complex. Why go to the trouble of building remote controlled airliners when you can find fanatics who'll be glad to fly them for free? Why surrepitously place demolition charges in buildings when fire, gravity, and the kinetic effects of a 400,000lb object hitting a hollow structure at 550mph will do the job just as well? It simply doesn't make sense.

Some of it is simply speculation by the misinformed, but I suspect much of it is deliberate disinformation desgned to throw people off the track. The real questions I'd like to see adressed are ignored - why were FBI agents on the trail of Atta's group reassigned or warned off further investigations? Why were Mossad agents watching from the top of a building across the street and cheering? Who warned Odigo employees two hours before the attacks?

And these are the questions that are not getting addressed, because people are misdirected by stories about "pods" on airliners, Global Hawks hitting the Pentagon, and other patent nonsense.




[edit on 7/13/06 by xmotex]

Personally I think when trying to prove the 9/11 conspiracy we should stay away from the Pentagon. But amongst 9/11 researchers it is ok to discuss it.

Here is my article on the Pentagon:

911physics.atspace.com...

Originally posted by aelphaeis_mangarae
Personally I think when trying to prove the 9/11 conspiracy we should stay away from the Pentagon. But amongst 9/11 researchers it is ok to discuss it.

Same. Personally, I'm more inclined to believe they flew a 757 into that building in such a way as to make it look as though nothing of the sort happened. Remember that pre-9/11 program that looked into readiness for a 757 slamming the Pentagon?



More on MASCAL. But how much does this matter ultimately?

I'm beginning to consider the same for the WTC. Not that it wasn't blown, but that that's not a great approach for presenting a case for an inside job, which in itself is most important for getting real reform in our government today. When you're trying to get people to consider a possibility fairly, bringing up something drastically shattering to their current schema or what-have-you wouldn't be very productive, in my opinion. The Northwoods Documents may even be a bit much for some people.

Sometimes you just have to reconsider what you're doing, and if it's worth it.

[edit on 14-7-2006 by bsbray11]

"I wish people would stop making reference to a missile hitting the Pentagon. I mean missiles don't have engines.

It was not a missile damnit!"

Hmmm, what does it have to do with an engine?
There was no engine...

I believe also a 757 hit the Pentagon. It doesn't change my belief that 9/11 was an inside job.

To me, when the plane hit the pentagon is not the red flag that something was amiss.

Its what flight 77 was doing in the hour before it struck, and everything that was happening that set alarm bells ringing. The actual hit tells me nothing. Except the curious lack of Pentagon video footage and video footage of the plane in the skies over DC.

tinwiki.org...

Originally posted by the_gary
"I wish people would stop making reference to a missile hitting the Pentagon. I mean missiles don't have engines.

It was not a missile damnit!"

Hmmm, what does it have to do with an engine?
There was no engine...

Just to let you know some missiles do have jet engines, like a cruise missile. You also have UAV's that have a jet engine that is close to the size of a airliner engine.

[edit on 14-7-2006 by ULTIMA1]

So wait, this is a black ops inside of a black ops?

Great, just what we need, more conspiracy and hate for the government, that always solved all our problems. I'm sorry, this might be a plus for those of us that think a 757 did in fact hit the pentagon, but lets stop to realize what all of this really is, for what it is, more ploys to get people against the government, it's one conspiracy after another, because after all, problems were really solved by creating more lies and hardships... Right? They were after all? I mean look at all the Anti-War protests in the pasts, and all the Peace movements gone arigh, those, I mean, solved all our problems... Right?

It was a very good post Bsbray, but there are always skeptics. Very good work though on the research and the idea, I liked the fact that there is an "option C" for those stuck in the middle, because there will always be doubt, but I'm just one that would rather be blind and left in the dark where I'm safe, then be in the light and known and sticking out like a soar thumb and a big red bulls-eye over my head.

Good Work, that was just all my opinions though. Just to clarify, I meant no sarcasm by anything, I really do think you did good on this.



Shattered OUT...