Ahem... Question.. Do you guys believe in A devil?

I actually read (Robert Graves:The White Goddess) that the existence of the devil and hell may be due to a much more mundane reason. When the people of Abraham, who came from Ur in Persia, first colonised the so called " promised land" they did not find the territory empty.
It was inhabited by a people who worshipped Helel,(Morning Star like Venus later to become Lucifer and Satan) to whom they had to impose the new Yahwe religion, so they banished Helel,buried her underground and that is why to this day God has no Jurisdiction in Hell.( Which is a bit wierd for a God not to be completely Omnipotent)
What is your reaction to that possibility?
Osbert+

That's interesting. I'd never heard that before. It does seem like a very good possibility though. As for the original question, I do not believe in Satan or hell in any sense of the words. I've thought about it at length and I cannot get it to make sense in my mind that there is a certain place you go when you die if you sin. I also cannot get it to make sense that there is an outside force causing me to do bad things. If I do something wrong it is because of one of two reasons. Either a) I wanted to do it and didn't care about the consequences, or b) I didn't know that it was wrong. In today's world not knowing something is wrong is rarely an excuse for doing it anyway as there are way too many sources of information. Another reason I have problems with the whole idea of Satan is that, hypothetically speaking, if there is a Satan and it is his fault that bad things happen then we have no choice in the matter. That would mean that those who hurt children had no choice because "The devil made them do it." And those who murder others had no choice because "The devil made them do it." To me the notion that an outside entity can force me to do bad things is ridiculous. Very rarely can anyone force you to do something that you don't want to do. Blaming anything on Satan prevents people from being responsible for their actions, and I can't accept that.

It almost sounds the way the bible describes lucifer dressed in splendour as if he were an earthy King. If thats not the answer I believe the concept of hell and the devil are mans creation to arouse fear and obedience. The demons could be the Kings army sent out to uphold his laws and precepts.

The only devil I believe in is the Tasmanian Devil. Gods, devils,demons,angels and any other religious entities have no bearing in my life. A waste of time and energy to think otherwise IMO.
Osbert - I like your thinking on Helel and Hell, its a good enough reason or part of the reason that our perception of Hell is the way it is.


On a lighter note, can someone explain to me WHY satan does what he does(or is supposed to). I mean why would satan try to overthrow god if he knows that god is omniwhatever and could never win. Secondly why would satan willingly lose the "final battle" if he knows that god wins anyway. Finally why would satan do gods bidding and torment souls in hell (if they dont believe in god etc) if satan wants gods power (The enemy of mine enemy is my friend).

Methinks its all BS


G

[edit on 12-7-2006 by shihulud]

Can Evil be manifested? iF SO WHAT INERTIA DOES THE dEVIL, DEMONS , etc contain? Actually we can't view them in this plane with out limited human vision? Which opens the question, Can there be the possibility that they exsit in other dimensions? And have access to a portal to materialise in our dimension?

Why do people blame their shortcomings and faults on the devil?
Truly, isn't that just an excuse not to take responsibility for their own actions?
People are falable, they make mistakes, but seriously, to think that the devil sits around all day thinking of ways to get people to screw each other over, that makes no sense to me at all?
If I was the second most powerful being in existence, I'd be out gambling in vegas!

Originally posted by Osbert


,buried her underground and that is why to this day God has no Jurisdiction in Hell.( Which is a bit wierd for a God not to be completely Omnipotent)

That is not at all Biblical. Hell was created for the devil and his angels, we are informed. And satan does not have control over hell, God has.

Originally posted by dbrandt
That is not at all Biblical. Hell was created for the devil and his angels, we are informed. And satan does not have control over hell, God has.

I did not say that it was Biblical and I don't see where God has control over Hell, neither do I understand how, a God reputed to be Infinite Goodness, finds sufficient evil to condemn part of his creation to suffer the torment of hell for eternity
Osbert+

The Book of Enoch (a Dead Sea Scroll Book) is mentioned in:

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, "and was not found, because God had taken him"; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. (hmm what testimony could that be? The book of Enoch?)

Jude 1:14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him." (He Prophesied? Yeah its in the book of Enoch)

and he is of course mentioned in Genesis.


Going with that the actual name of the Serpent that "seduced" Eve was actually named Gâdreêl. There were many of them and they are also referred to as the Watchers. They corrupted mankind with forbidden knowledge.

Enoch 69:4 The name of the first Jeqôn: that is, the one who led astray [all] the sons of God, and brought them down to the earth, and led them astray through the daughters of men. And the second was named Asbeêl: he imparted to the holy sons of God evil counsel, and led them astray so that they defiled their bodies with the daughters of men. And the third was named Gâdreêl: he it is who showed the children of men all the blows of death, and he led astray Eve, and showed [the weapons of death to the sons of men] the shield and the coat of mail, and the sword for battle, and all the weapons of death to the children of men. And from his hand they have proceeded against those who dwell…

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:


They also had relations with Earth Women creating Nephelim (Giants). When you read the actual Hebrew scriptures you will find the use of Satan in many verses to mean adversary.

That King of Tyre context about a Cherub is not talking about "Satan" - there is no name Lucifer in the Hebrew or Greek scriptures. Start digging and you easily conclude the things we call Serpent are still here in their ships...

Here is a snip of the 2nd coming from Enoch:


Enoch 1:5-8

5 And all shall be smitten with fear And the Watchers shall quake, And great fear and trembling shall seize them unto the ends of the earth. And the high mountains shall be shaken, And the high hills shall be made low, And shall melt like wax before the flame. And the Earth shall be wholly rent in sunder, And all that is upon the earth shall perish, And there shall be a judgment upon all (men). But with the righteous He will make peace, And will protect the elect, And mercy shall be upon them.


The Watchers are not onlookers they are referring to this class of beings. Here among us on the Earth. Sort of like this verse:

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


I'm sure many UFO sightings are real and the context of sexual experiments are also real because they did the same thing thousands of years ago when they had relations with Earth Women creating Nephelim. There is your devil and adversary "Satan"

More on my web page:

www.numberman.net...
www.numberman.net...

The Devil....... And his evil............ The subject comes to mind, of the ``Last days``. Where men will get more wicked, and things will take a turn for the worst, do you think, as the bible says in the Book of revelation, that the devil has a short time, and knowing this he has come to make trouble with the inhabitants of the world? Woe to the inhabitants of the earth............., etc.. Do you think that men have become inheretantly more wicked? and sinful?

Thoughts