Bringing democracy to the world what about some in the USA

I once heard a well known republican pundit say Liberals don't get it they don't understand that after 911 everything changed, though I do not for one minute agree with the liberals don't get it remark I do however agree that after 911 everything did change. Here is how in the name of fighting terrorism America changed.

1. Invasion of Afghanistan, Bin Laden is still currently dragging his dialysis machine around with him in the desert with no place to plug it in. But we are still bombing the **** out of that country. Remember Bush said he did not think too much about OBL.

2. Americans are being searched like a common criminal at airports.

3. The patriot act is enacted and more American rights are tossed. The morons that are supposed to be putting our best interests first don't even read it but still grandstand about how they are protecting us all.

4. Iraq war, over 2500 of own dead and over 100,000 Iraqi civilians are also dead their considered collateral damage. To show how much they matter the pentagon does not even try and keep an accurate count of the Iraqi civilians killed and when we reached the number 2500 of American military lost, Tony Snow the White House Press Secretary said, "It's a number," and then went onto try and make that comment sound ok.

www.whitehouse.gov...
Q Tony, American deaths in Iraq have reached 2,500. Is there any response or reaction from the President on that?

MR. SNOW: It's a number, and every time there's one of these 500 benchmarks people want something. The President would like the war to be over now. Everybody would like the war to be over now. And the one thing that we saw in Iraq this week is further testimony to the quality of the men and the women who are doing that, and the dedication and determination to try to ensure that the people of Iraq really do live in a free, effective democracy of their own creation and design.

5. NSA begins listening to us all without a court order, their collecting our phone numbers, who we call and who calls us, how long we talk, etc.. Last week I lost my phone bill and thought about calling them and asking if they could give me a detailed list.

6. Everyone from the quakers to peace groups to student groups being targeted & monitored by the government.

www.democracynow.org.../06/27/1432256
Pentagon Admits To New Spying of Student Groups
The list of activist groups monitored under a secret Pentagon program is growing. De-classified documents show the government intercepted the students' e-mails and planted undercover agents at at least one protest.

7. Then the gov. begins looking at international bank records without a court record. If they could do this with no problem why have there been no arrests or major congressional investigations into all the companies that made money from 911?

Then we have pundits on tv making comments like I'd rather have them collecting my phone records than collecting my remains. Is that the terms we are supposed to be thinking in when it comes to our freedoms? It's ludricous, especially when you recall that when Americans were afraid to fly & this fear was actually hurting a business, we were all told to go about our business in a normal fashion because to do otherwise would be letting the terrorists win.

But now that the gov. wants us all to accept their invasion of our privacy their constant assassination of our rights as Americans, it's ok because this is fighting terrorism? I'm sorry but there does come a time when it starts to look like we the American public is the only target of all this so called fighting terrorism. We the American people who have been told to go to the mall & shop to fight terrorism, we the American people who have been told to go about our live in as normal fashion as possible to fight terrorism but we the American people are supposed to bend over and grab our ankles to fight terrorism. We are told we are bringing democracy to the world because we are the land of the free.

[edit on 28-6-2006 by goose]

The concern I have is that most of the people crying about all of this are in fact liberals and the suggestion is that all conservatives are in fact well... nazi's.

See the problem here? Even if you had a good arguement the extreme politicization of it makes a lot of people turn off soon as you start talking.

Furthermore, it is not the job of the US military to know how many Iraqi's have died since they are fighting a war where numbers of Iraqi's are the enemy. It is Iraqi's job to know how many have died and frankly I doubt they are that well organized and all the factions over there are not working together either.

What I really wonder about though is this; if Democrats ran the whitehouse and everything else was the same, would we hear still the crys from the liberals about what is going on?

If the answer is yes, then you have credibility, if the answer is no then you don't have any. See that is the problem here.

If you actually took the time to study both American and world history, it might be easier
for you to understand why so many people are outraged by the acts of this administration.

Many people who you might consider liberals are actually highly conservative when it come to
the protection of our hard earned civil liberties.

Many people opposed the acts of this administration do believe in God, but they also believe
that Freedom gives us the right to make an informed decision on our own without government
intervention.

It is not a liberal concept to demand accurate voting.
It is not a liberal concept to demand the highest ethics of our leadership.
It is not a liberal concept to demand zero tollerance of any one or any group
who attempts to undermine our U.S. Constitution or The Bill of Rights.
It is also not a liberal concept to denounce tyranny or raise your voice in protest
when your leadership has betrayed your confidence.

These are not liberal values or Democratic values
These are American Values.

Originally posted by denythestatusquo
The concern I have is that most of the people crying about all of this are in fact liberals and the suggestion is that all conservatives are in fact well... nazi's.

What I really wonder about though is this; if Democrats ran the whitehouse and everything else was the same, would we hear still the crys from the liberals about what is going on?

If the answer is yes, then you have credibility, if the answer is no then you don't have any. See that is the problem here.

I said what I said about the Bush Administration not republicans, because many republicans and or conservatives do not support what is being done by the Bush Administration, but yet you insist on bringing the debate of republican & democrats into it.

Let me make something very clear it is not just democrats whose rights are being eroded it is republicans as well. Every American no matter who they voted for or intend to vote for in the future are having their rights eroded. Do you think when the NSA is listening they say, oops that a republican we can't monitor him?

Also many of us democrats are very disappointed in the many democrats going right along with this erosion of American's rights and freedoms, voting for it and supporting it.

We feel as though we have little or no representation. I do not think the republicans can say they do either, the republicans who are against big gov., big spending, and government messing with their private lives, c'mon can anyone tell me that this Administration, hasn't failed you on just about everything the republican platform is supposed to be.

The only ones who have representation in the government right now is corporations. Most of our government officials democrats and republicans are nothing more than whores selling all our rights to the highest bidder.

You don't think all those lists and all that monitoring and all that data is being done for free do you? We the American taxpayer are paying for them to spy on us. We are paying for the wars in money as well as blood. We are footing the bill for it and paying these whores who keep voting our rights away as well.

And while we are doing that we the American people can't even get a raise on minimum wage, but don't despair the gov. who refused to vote for us to get one made sure they voted for us to give them one.

[edit on 28-6-2006 by goose]

You made a good point denythestatusquo but I think goose is write to say the answer is it doesn't matter who's in the White House. And judging by the differences between the candidates in the last election it really doesn't!!!

Me well economically I’m quite right wing, though socially I'm quite liberal. But the only thing that makes me against the war in Iraq is my compassion for other human beings, and my knowledge of how things is. So I don't think the left-right argument is that relevant; what is your respect for the greater right and your willingness to look outside the box. If people who don't do that is all the Republicans are left with (as some people would claim) then it still doesn't change what the core attractions to the anti war movement are.

Being an outsider to America then unless the Democrats promised something completely different I kind of want the Republicans to win because then even more people would be disillusioned come the next election. And disillusionment is good; as it’s the soil that the seeds of progress and change can sprout out of.

Question:

Let's assume somehow we were able to weed out and eliminate all of the terrorists thereby ending the 'war on terror'. Does anyone think that the government would end the patriot act, stop tapping our phones, quit looking at our bank records, quit searching us at airports, etc, etc?

Answering this question just might give you insight on who the real enemy of this war is.

Err, America is not now, nor never has been, a "democracy". The unwashed masses have never been in direct control of anything.......thank god for that.....

So,let me put this question to all of you. What rights of yours have been tossed because of the Patriot act. How has it actually affected you personally. I have been stopped in airports and my luggage searched, if this keeps me safe it does not bother me.

Originally posted by mecheng
Question:

Let's assume somehow we were able to weed out and eliminate all of the terrorists thereby ending the 'war on terror'. Does anyone think that the government would end the patriot act, stop tapping our phones, quit looking at our bank records, quit searching us at airports, etc, etc?

Answering this question just might give you insight on who the real enemy of this war is.

Do you know for a fact that they are tapping your personal phone. Do you know for a fact that they are looking at your personal bank records.
I don't think the Patriot will end, maybe it will get revised but it will always be there.

Originally posted by steve99
Do you know for a fact that they are tapping your personal phone. Do you know for a fact that they are looking at your personal bank records.

I didn't say they were tapping mine. But they have admitted to tapping ours. So, who's to say, down the road, they don't start tapping mine. Perhaps they don't like what I'm saying on this thread and may want more info on me.

I don't think the Patriot will end, maybe it will get revised but it will always be there.

Are you ok with that, assuming my hypothetical situation occurs some day (no terrorists)?

They can tap mine all they want, as I am not doing anything wrong. They could be doing it now for all I know.

There will always be someone that will want to attack this country.

I don't feel any problems with my freedome. Maybe some people are just paranoid about big goverment. Maybe they should move to another country and see how the other half lives, if it is bad here.

I hate that type of comment. It's my country too. If you like your rights being taken away and if you like your privacy being infringed on maybe you should move... to a place like Russia or China.

I love the USA. It's a great country. But, I feel that we are no longer as 'free' as we once were. Yes, you're correct that they probably aren't tapping you now, but this is a start. First it's the terrorists. Once the terrorist are gone (some might say there aren't any now) it leaves the door wide open for them to start setting their sights on us. I for one don't want this country to turn into a big brother society. It's not now, but IMO it's heading in that direction.

How do you feel we are not free. Do you do the same things as you did 3,4,5 ,10 years ago. I know I do and I don't look over my shoulder thinking I am being watched.
What would the goverment benifit from taking our freedom away. Why would they want to tap my phone or yours for that matter.

Originally posted by steve99
How do you feel we are not free. Do you do the same things as you did 3,4,5 ,10 years ago. I know I do and I don't look over my shoulder thinking I am being watched.
What would the goverment benifit from taking our freedom away. Why would they want to tap my phone or yours for that matter.

The fact that someone thinks it is their business to access your phone and bank records and to actually listen to your phone conversations and possibly read your email and snail mail, should alert you to the fact that your freedoms are slipping away.

In the past they at least had to go to the courts to get the right to look at these things because they were considered yours and part of your privacy. Now they also belong to the gov.. without even proving there is a case or reason to view you as a person of interest.

In the past the police at least had to knock and ask you to open your door now they can kick it in if they want to without knocking.

In some places already if you own property in an area and the town or county deems that property has a better use and for the overal good of the town can actually force you to sell it at market value.

Are they doing it to you. Do you know anyone they might be doing it to. People are bitchin and moaning that our rights are being taken from us. Do you acually know someone that this has happened too. Someone that is not doing anything illegal.

You guys make it sound as if the police are rounding people up. Kicking in doors. Again do you know someone this has happened too.

And as for emminant domain this has always been there. It is just now that the news is picking up on it. Again you guys make it sound wide spread.

The US is the same as it was during any wartime. Do you think it was any differant during WW2. The only differance was then the press was on our side.

Originally posted by steve99
They can tap mine all they want, as I am not doing anything wrong. They could be doing it now for all I know.

There will always be someone that will want to attack this country.

I don't feel any problems with my freedom. Maybe some people are just paranoid about big government. Maybe they should move to another country and see how the other half lives, if it is bad here.

No offence steve but don't you think that's its people like you sharing your attitude that help our rights further deteriorate? Could people like you help us slide into slide into a dictatorship?
Adolf Hitler once said that so long as the bread and butter on the table and security in the streets the average German will be happy with their government. (Maybe not in those words but its something I remember reading at school).

Maybe Hitler was write maybe he was wrong; but its people who take that self centred approach that don't half support people like him. Rights are being taken away in America but providing you’re still free to do your shopping, see your mates down the road and that sort of thing; you will be happy steve99? Because apologies if I’m wrong but it sounds to me that's all your actually saying.
Not that I'm denying that having a place to exist comes before one in which to live. I just don't like it when the interests of world government (mass media ect) have become quite separate to the interests of the public. But food and security is what counts; isn't it?

P.S Steve99 like a mad man the government may allow you and me the freedom to speak our minds; but like a mad man when do they not use their freedom to ignore us? (not just us but everyone sharing an opinion contrary to theirs) Do you really trust the people who got us into the Iraq war for reasons still unclear? Maybe there isn't a connection but I don't trust people who lie to me especially if they are power hungry and only speak to me through the TV.

Originally posted by steve99
Are they doing it to you. Do you know anyone they might be doing it to. People are bitchin and moaning that our rights are being taken from us. Do you acually know someone that this has happened too. Someone that is not doing anything illegal.

So you think we are supposed to wait until it happens to us, to notice it? Don't you think it might be just a wee bit late to take notice then?

The press is on whose side now, what side are you talking about? The major media outlets/news outlets are owned by corporations, whose interests do you think they care about?

Do you realize that propaganda has been used by the current gov. on us? Here is a story about Armstrong Williams, one pundit paid by the gov. to promote their agenda and there were two more who it turned out that were paid by the gov. to promote their agenda and then there are the VNR's.

www.democracynow.org.../01/11/1446234&mode=thread&tid=25



[edit on 29-6-2006 by goose]

You can't fight what you can't see. If it didn't happen yet what is there to fight about.
I believe very little of what I read in the press. Especially on the Internet.

The news only cares about one thing making money and it will show stories that will do it for them. Hence the girl that disapeared in the Bahamas last year is still being reported.

All those rights being taken away are things they have already taken. It's not something that is non existant.

I agree I don't know how to change it but I definitely know it's being done and it's wrong. Their saying it is to catch terrorists but it is we the American public that are losing our rights. And it is all being done under the guise of saving us from terrorists. Do you think the majority of people would all just sit there without any fuss if they told us it was just because they wanted to take those rights away?

People have died fighting for those rights, but now those rights and freedoms that Bush mentions in every speech is being taken slowly but surely. It's shameful!

I believe only trusted websites and then I do my own research to find out more info. As for the media, it's pitiful how little real news they tell and when they do have to tell something they frame it and spin it in such a way as to make it seem acceptable what our leaders do.

I've actually watched interviews where the journalists who are supposed to remain neutral have actually been outright hostile to the person who has a different point of view, it's pathetic to see what passes for journalists and journalism today.

Well gotta tear the computer apart and move it so if you respond it may take awhile to get back to you as I am somewhat electronically challenged & I am unsure if I can get it all wired back properly. LOL





[edit on 29-6-2006 by goose]

Originally posted by steve99
Are they doing it to you. Do you know anyone they might be doing it to. People are bitchin and moaning that our rights are being taken from us. Do you acually know someone that this has happened too. Someone that is not doing anything illegal.

Steve, just because it's not happening to YOU doesn't mean it isn't happening. That kind of thinking shows me that the government won't have to "chip" us---we will go willingly to the slaughter.

Since 9/11 the police have changed their tactics.
I hope one of the cops who post here can verify this.

In my community, if you speak to an officer without being spoken you, you are interfering with police and you can get a ticket and a court date.
If you fail to answer an officer the same can happen.
And, many have attitudes to match.

I certainly don't think things were like that not so long ago.

[edit on 29-6-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]