Cleopatra may have been murdered.

I came home from work tonight and my wife told me about a Discovery Channel documentary she had just watched regarding Cleopatra's death. I will post a link when I can find it,(I have yet been unable to come up with anything from my search) but the show apparently claims through the deduction of possible suicide methods, that the Queen could not have killed herself, at least not by the methods traditionally accepted. Historical record has shown us that Cleopatra had a widespread knowledge of fast-acting lethal poisons at her disposal, as well as the knowledge to use them. The mausoleum was only yards from the palace, where Octavian had "set up shop". Upon recieving her suicide note, how long would it have really taken him and his guard to reach the Queen? If she truly wanted to kill herself before he had a chance to parade her through Rome as a captive, why not use something a bit more potent than an Asp? Their bite can take more than an hour to take effect. Where was Octavian and his Roman cronies during this crucial time period? Some things are just not adding up here and I thought I would get some other opinions.

This is an old theory. Part of the thought behind it was that Octavian needed any remnant of Egypt to be destroyed, that would be Cleopatra and Ptolemy Cesaerian.

Originally posted by Mr Totality
This is an old theory. Part of the thought behind it was that Octavian needed any remnant of Egypt to be destroyed, that would be Cleopatra and Ptolemy Cesaerian.

Right. I'm aware it is an old theory. I am exploring the evidence behind it. Which theory is the most likely. It is obvious that Octavian needed to erase any threat to his seat of power, but why the charade? Those that knew Cleopatra undoubtedly would have been shocked to learn that she had committed suicide. This was grossly out of character for her.

I don't know if Octavian would've needed to knock her off, he could've had a kid with her, and then solidify his position even more. Possibly. She seemed to be clever enough to go along with whoever looked like a winner.

Originally posted by Nygdan
I don't know if Octavian would've needed to knock her off, he could've had a kid with her, and then solidify his position even more. Possibly. She seemed to be clever enough to go along with whoever looked like a winner.

True, he probably could have, but if you recall, Julius' marriage to Cleopatra was a bit of an embarrassment to the Roman Empire. Octavian was a "Roman's Roman", and one that was constantly trying to pull himself out of the shadow of Julius Caesar. Marrying Cleopatra and having a child with her would only have solidified the people's opion of him as a runner up. Secondly, he had a stout and independent disposition, from what has been said about his character, and I doubt he would have wanted to play third fiddle to anyone's mistress. When the union with Egypt and Rome first happened, there was so much outrage because the people believed that Rome was catering to a country they felt was beneath them and should therefore do as they were told. Octavian had been arguing this to the Senate and people of Rome from the beginning. How would it have looked to those that had just placed him in power, if he just went along and did what all his predecessors had done? IMO Octavian's success as an Emperor rested in his immediate and decisive action against all that had been wrought between Julius and Antony. The result seems clear. All who had anything to do with that union were killed. One way or another.

Originally posted by EdenKaia
I came home from work tonight and my wife told me about a Discovery Channel documentary she had just watched regarding Cleopatra's death.

I saw it.

I will post a link when I can find it,(I have yet been unable to come up with anything from my search) but the show apparently claims through the deduction of possible suicide methods, that the Queen could not have killed herself, at least not by the methods traditionally accepted.

It was poorly done. As my daughter said, they base the case built on stories that were told 400 years after her death, and hang the whole case on the reported incident that the slave came "right back" and found her dying. And they took much of the Shakespearian play as truth.

There are no contemporary (to her death) thorough reports on this. They didn't have accurate clocks. There is no way to know if she had such a slave who was sent with a message, how long it actually took the slave (if such existed) to find Octavian (who surely wasn't sitting around, waiting for messages), how long that Octavian made the slave wait (if he was mad at Cleo or had visitors, the slave would have to wait until Octavian gave him permission to speak), whether the slave ran into any traffic on the way back, whether the slave was stopped by someone or stopped someone to talk. The assumption was "Slave RUNS to Octavian, slave finds Octavian immediately, and slave RUNS back to Cleo and finds her dying."

We *don't* know, but they treat this speculation as truth.

They also made some speculations about where Octavian was. He could have been visiting a group of political or military cronies or could have been at the bath (Romans of his station had a lot of duties they attended to during the day and could have been almost anywhere.)

Historical record has shown us that Cleopatra had a widespread knowledge of fast-acting lethal poisons at her disposal, as well as the knowledge to use them.

That's what the show assumed. There's no documentation one way or another. But it makes for a sellable documentary if you tell the public this is a fact.

The mausoleum was only yards from the palace, where Octavian had "set up shop". Upon recieving her suicide note, how long would it have really taken him and his guard to reach the Queen? If she truly wanted to kill herself before he had a chance to parade her through Rome as a captive, why not use something a bit more potent than an Asp?

The asp story is not contemporaneous with her death, actually. It shows up several hundred years later. The documentary did mention this and then treats the asp as fact after saying it wasn't a direct connection.

Some things are just not adding up here and I thought I would get some other opinions.

My opinion: it was a badly done show. It took speculation and rumor (and they mention that these are speculations) and then treat them as fact. My daughter stomped out with "ARRGH!" after about 20 minutes of this. I watched the whole thing, and thought it very weak. It could have been greatly improved by emphasizing that this was speculation and presenting some alternatives or even making that a minor part and presenting more of the real political intrigue.

Originally posted by EdenKaia

Originally posted by Mr Totality
This is an old theory. Part of the thought behind it was that Octavian needed any remnant of Egypt to be destroyed, that would be Cleopatra and Ptolemy Cesaerian.

Right. I'm aware it is an old theory. I am exploring the evidence behind it. Which theory is the most likely. It is obvious that Octavian needed to erase any threat to his seat of power, but why the charade? Those that knew Cleopatra undoubtedly would have been shocked to learn that she had committed suicide. This was grossly out of character for her.

I dont necessarily agree that it was out of character. There was much thought that it was much more honorable for her to take her own life than let OCtavian do it. Remember, she believed that her "love" was dead, and I am sure was pretty certain that she knew her son couldnt hide forever.

Originally posted by EdenKaia

Originally posted by Nygdan
I don't know if Octavian would've needed to knock her off, he could've had a kid with her, and then solidify his position even more. Possibly. She seemed to be clever enough to go along with whoever looked like a winner.

True, he probably could have, but if you recall, Julius' marriage to Cleopatra was a bit of an embarrassment to the Roman Empire. Octavian was a "Roman's Roman", and one that was constantly trying to pull himself out of the shadow of Julius Caesar. Marrying Cleopatra and having a child with her would only have solidified the people's opion of him as a runner up. Secondly, he had a stout and independent disposition, from what has been said about his character, and I doubt he would have wanted to play third fiddle to anyone's mistress. When the union with Egypt and Rome first happened, there was so much outrage because the people believed that Rome was catering to a country they felt was beneath them and should therefore do as they were told. Octavian had been arguing this to the Senate and people of Rome from the beginning. How would it have looked to those that had just placed him in power, if he just went along and did what all his predecessors had done? IMO Octavian's success as an Emperor rested in his immediate and decisive action against all that had been wrought between Julius and Antony. The result seems clear. All who had anything to do with that union were killed. One way or another.

Agreed, it seems that there was little chance that Octavian would have fathered a child with Cleopatra. Caesar and Mark Antony's involvement with her embarrased Rome. Octavian would have kept away from that bad press

My thought was maybe the slave did get there right away and Octavian just said "hmmm I'll finish what I am doing and then go" .... But then I am just a cynic and would think to myself it would be a way to solve a problem without my being involved.

Cleopatra was the most intelligent Queen of Egypt´s history.

She used her body, her sensitivity, her soul to continue her dinasty and to hold the power. She was a leader, an ambitious monarch...

She thought she would be able to control everything, but all her plans failed when she met Antony. She had fallen in love.

Octavian wanted her power and knew about Cleopatra´s love. Octavian's navy severely defeated Antony in Actium, not only to win the battle, but to murder her love.

When Cleopatra was told that Antony was dead, she was unable to find a way out. Even though she had been able to solve other previous situations, this time, her heart was broken.
She committed suicide and died on August 12, 30 BC at the age of 39.

Her death was the mark of the end of the Egyptian Monarchs. The Roman Emperors came into to rule in Egypt. The Ptolemies were Macedonian in decent, but ruled as Egyptians, as Pharaohs. Cleopatra was the last pharaoh; after her death Egypt became a Roman province.

Octavian´s purposes succeeded.

If Antony was already dead when Cleopatra was informed of it
or if they - both - were told that the other had died (when this was not true) in order to push them to committ suicide...

In the event of having been defeated: yes, then we could say it was a murder.