personal proof that "God" is a MYTH, read on...

Would you like God to intervene every time a human make a bad decision? So much for free will?

I think the true tradgey here is that we are all trying to undersomething that is completely infinite while we ourselves are finite. Our finite mind can nont comprehend GOd nor can our 3 dimensional world and view of life see God much as a 2 dimensonal pac man can non judge width.


We are playing with something that is way beyond us and to think for a second you know why God did something or that you know what God is doing you are being foolish.

There's no such thing as "free will" when you're only presented a limited number of options. When dealing with God, we're presented with something much closer to a "Prisoner's Dilemma."

Prisoner's Dilemma

God puts you in a human body, with all the accompanying human needs, then establishes rules that limit the satisfaction of those needs. God then puts you in situations where you have to choose between satisfying the needs and obeying the rules. That is not "free will," because you have no control over the rules (which are established and enforced by your fellow prisoners), and only limited control over your physical and emotional needs as a living animal.

"God" also serves the purpose of a punishment mechanism in an iterated prisoner's dilemma, in that acceptance of God (cooperation with the mechanism) will push all players toward an equilibrium state of cooperation, which may cost the individual more than if they had acted in pure self-interest, but ultimately benefits the rest of the community.

The only real exercise of free will occurs when you purposely step outside the game and reject the punishment dictated by God and conveniently carried out by the "believers." The only problem is that the believers who are still in the game don't want to give up their control over you. So they'll call you a "heretic" and burn you at the stake, or in a forum like this, give you all the standard warnings about being judged or burning in Hell. Basically, they'll try to find other ways to sanction you and bring you back into the game, even though you want out.

The result is still a loss of free will, whether it's taken away by the "God" construct, or the people playing the game.

The thing that strikes me as odd is, how could people possibly know this.

well if would be nice if he did before a loved one was about to die, like prevent loved one from dying perhaps a reasonable action. god interevened like once a week in peoples lives when jesus was alive. now all of a sudden he just dissapeared and doesnt give a dam anymore? sounds really fishy to me. it would be whole lot easier if god didnt exist at all so i wouldnt have to waste time getting my revenge after my passing comes.

one person related hundreds of children being born every day to acts of god in this thread... those are not acts of god those are humans making babies. and anyway, i know for a fact that close to 30 000 children die every day around the world so where is god in that i ask you? hes sittin his ass on a leather couch in paradise watching eatch of those kids die thats where he is. still love god now?

The fact is. He doesnt exist. We are just the flicker of a blip in the shadow of the cosmos.

We are an accident, a string of complex amino acids that formed rna and then dna, simple single celled organisms which evolved simply because they had traits that allowed them to survive over others.

We live and die for purposes created within our own minds and nothing else, on a planet created by matter from an exploded sun, spinning around a younger sun.

No God. No fate. No purpose. Just science.

[edit on 21-6-2006 by Shadow88]

Look, I understand as well as most people the struggles with believing in a God who supposedly loves us, is all powerful, created us, and knows exactly what is going to happen to us yet still allows people to go to Hell, but have you tried directing some of the hate at they guy who raped your fiance? It would seem that he's to blame for most of this, not God. Sure, God could have stopped him, but then comes the whole free-will argument. That asshole had the free will to do what he did, and hopefully he'll burn in Hell for it. That is, if there is a Hell...

But I totally understand where you're coming from. I see the whole free-will argument as major BS most of the time, because free-will is situational. You can't just use it as a universal scape goat. It's as if people act like if God made a choice for us, it would be taking away ALL of our free will. A parent knows when to give their child free will, and when that child wouldn't be safe with free will. Should it be the same with God? If God had stopped that guy from raping your fiance, would it really disrupt universal free will? I don't think you should abandon God and hate him for this, I think you should take a step back and re-examine your faith. Perhaps God isn't what you once thought he was? Sometimes I think that, given the situation on earth right now, God either doesn't love us, doesn't care, or really isn't truley all powerful. If he was all-poweful, he could stop anything he wanted.

Then again, I'm just a human using human logic . I hope you get better.

I believe that God gives everyone to roads to travel on and im sorry for your lose but it was your girls choice to get into the car. Do not forget that horrible things happen to people everyday and the honest truth is that the Devil has no real reasons to attack people that dont believe in God, but if you truly believe and when God is Blessing you that is when the Devil attacks. Just read what happen to Job in the bible. Im not down playing what happen to you but what happen to him was ten times worse.

[edit on 21-6-2006 by Mrknighttime32]

[edit on 21-6-2006 by Mrknighttime32]

Sorry for your loss worksoftplayhard. Some wounds we learn to live with and not leave behind.

The prisoner's dilemma. If we were not sentient and happy as beasts, we would be unaware of the effects of our species social constructs on our own behaviour. We are sentient and aware of a conscience that supersedes social or state laws.

What are those laws, written on the hearts of men, is that not the true dilemma? Or is the height of evolution conformity and/or psychopathy?

Though we change every moment that passes into something different, something in us also remains the same. Unaware of the final destination of such a contradiction we are limited in our perception of ourselves. Faith is the assurance of things yet seen. God is the universe stretching out a hand of mystery to guide us stumbling into the unknown.

It can be argued that science has offered more comforts and conveniences to mankind than has his religions. Science has also used its fruits to oppress, maim, kill and frighten.

Deeds without love are nothing.

worksoftplayhard>>

Really liked your post, I would like to extend my condolences to you.

I wouldnt beleive in a good either (Well i already dont), because what god would create a world where such tragedy happen?

If thats one of gods tests... i really dont need god.

worksoftplayhard

Please accept by sincerest condolences

I have suffered a loss in the past year and I would like to offer some advice...

Meditation and Tai Chi can bring about inner peace without the need for drugs

I have just started along this path and it seems to help

I don't follow it myself, but Buddhism is the one religion I know of that does have a god - they follow the teachings of Buddha in order to gain enlightenment and a connection with the universe

If a more rational approach is more your thing (it is for me), two good books I have read that merge eastern teachings with western science and quantum physics - 'The Dancing Masters of Wu Li' and 'The Holographic Universe' - both give a deeper meaning to life without mentioning Church or God.

Perhaps one day when you are ready you could check them out?

Take it easy


[edit on 22/6/2006 by alienanderson]

I'm so sorry for your loss. I'm sure nothing I can say, or anyone on these boards for that matter, will make you feel better.

I personally believe that we human beings are eternal. We have always existed in some form, and will always exist. Before coming to this earth, we were with God, and we were happy. There was no pain. There was no suffering. Only peace,love, joy, and happiness.

Sounds pretty great, doesn't it? Well, that's where we have a metaphysical problem. As far as we understood, we were happy, but can one truly understand what happiness is, without having experienced pain and suffering, and unhappiness?

For example, let's say you said you loved sweet foods. Could you truly say you love sweet foods better than every other kind of food, if you had never tasted anything salty, or bitter? You need a basis of comparison. So God created a place for us to experience misery, hate, bitterness, anger, sadness, pain, and every other miserable emotion, so that we could truly understand what happiness is, and that only through God, and through his wisdom, can we be truly happy.

So he gave us a planet, and gave us free will, to do what we want, and most humans seem to use that free will to hurt eachother, either intentionally or unintentionally so.

I'm a Christian (More specifically, a Mormon), and there are afew scriputres that always have helped me get through difficult times.

From the Bible, the Book of Revelations, chapter 7 verses 14-17

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

And from the Book of Mormon, The Book of Ether, Chapter 12 verse 4

4 Wherefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to glorify God.

And Lastly, from the Doctrine and Covenets (written by Joseph Smith)
Section 122, Verses 5-8

5 If thou art called to pass through atribulation; if thou art in perils among false brethren; if thou art in perils among robbers; if thou art in perils by land or by sea;
6 If thou art accused with all manner of false accusations; if thine enemies fall upon thee; if they tear thee from the society of thy father and mother and brethren and sisters; and if with a drawn sword thine enemies tear thee from the bosom of thy wife, and of thine offspring, and thine elder son, although but six years of age, shall cling to thy garments, and shall say, My father, my father, why can’t you stay with us? O, my father, what are the men going to do with you? and if then he shall be thrust from thee by the sword, and thou be dragged to prison, and thine enemies prowl around thee like wolves for the blood of the lamb;
7 And if thou shouldst be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murderers, and the sentence of death passed upon thee; if thou be cast into the deep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy; if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elements combine to hedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good.
8 The Son of Man hath descended below them all. Art thou greater than he?

I hope this helps.

I am sorry for your loss...and the loss that didn't come to the ones who deserved it...

I have been a "Satanist" for about 4 years now, I was that fed up with "god" and his X(christ)ian minions...

Also, since i'm a sinner, i'd much rather be friends with the guy downstairs than be his enemy if i'm already sinning and going to hell to begin with! I never got baptized, I never want to either, give me the glory of eternally burning hells than the boring happiness of heaven.

that is a horrible story and im sorry for what happened to your girlfriend i cant even begin to imagine what you are going through.

However, there is one thing i would like to make you all aware of. Something that everyone here has overlooked is the probablility (and a likely one at that), that God is not like a person in any way. As i see it, God does not do things or not do things like a person would do, like step in and prevent something from happening on an individual or even worldwide scale. I have a feeling that a lot of people picture God as a gigantic old man with a white beard who sits up in a cloud palace and chooses whether to help people out in life or not. This is a very limited view of the "concept" of God. I look at God as more of an idea or concept rather then an individual being that i could ever fully understand. Does anyone kinda get what i am saying here? I wouldnt blame God for what happened to your girlfriend at all, i would blame the people that caused it, and depending on your philisophical or Theological standpoint, either forgive them or punish them any way you can.

My condolences. This was a tradegy. These rapists/potheads should have been jailed, no question.

Like you, I do not believe in "God", well, not of any religion I've ever heard of. I was raised Catholic and attended church at least once a week for 16 years. I realised "God" could not exist as a child, because all the tales of the benevolence of "Jesus" and "God" were in complete contrast to the world around me. Starving millions in Africa, many of whom are Christian, being left to starve for nothing - what sin did they commit to deserve that? Serial killers saying "God" told them to do it. Of course, these guys are crazy, arent they. "God" would never talk to them would he? He would talk to the guy in the rope telling you to repent your evil ways, love "God" and make sure you put money in the collection plate.

To me, nearly all organised religions are a crime against humanity. Controlling the gullible by telling them if they don't conform, they'll burn in the pits of "Hell". Asking their flock to contribute towards helping the poor of the world whilst they themselves sit in luxury. How much money/treasure does the Vatican have? Enough to end world poverty I'm sure. Did "Jesus" not once say (according to the Bible) that the meek would inherit the Earth? When? After all the rich and powerful have buggered off and left us a polluted dying planet?

As was said earlier, Buddhism has no God, and I have no trouble with people trying to "cleanse their spirit" or whatever, that's cool. I personally believe there is a supreme being, responsible for the creation of the universre and whatever is beyond, but I don't think he is conscious of us, interferes in our lives or sent his son to Earth 2000 years ago.

I cannot believe the comments such as "maybe it was her time" etc. This guy has just suffered through a major ordeal. The last thing he needs is to hear a load of claptrap from fundamentalist nutters.



Again, sorry for your loss.

First off, let me say I feel for you guy, I really do.

There's too much here to understand before we can even begin to assess the how's and why's of what happens in our little space of everything. I feel like God is God (He Is what He Is) on whatever level and maybe even multiple levels, but what we go through must be a by product of our purpose. However painful or joyful it's dealt, we must be able to deal with it. It appears that at some time you had the right idea, beacuse love and compassion has to be the only way. Once boundless love is achieved, only then can you become part of the One; giving you understanding of the One. Yeah, this crap (reality?) can be figured out, but it's really tough on our cesspool level. Stick to the core values of what's good, and it all comes back to you (meaning you can regain the power you had before you got here). It doesn't take an idiot to figure out there are plenty of distractions to keep us off the beaten track, but the answers and understanding is there, you just can't give up on it. To me, that's much more of a science than religion.

cool a satanist. ive always wondered about the life of a satanist ever scince my loss... tell me groundzero what is the daily routine of a satanist? do you feel like you belong now that your a satanist? any regrets of becoming one? possibly this could be my destiny who knows.

I dont get it, how can you belive in destiny and not belive in some type of God/higher power or whatever?

because whatever my destiny is heaven or god dont have a place in it.

So what your really saying is that you dont have "personal proof that "God" is a MYTH" because to me it sounds like you belive in something.Your just choosing to turn away.Correct me if i'm wrong.