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Can enough light remove faith ?

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posted on Jun, 15 2006 @ 08:27 PM
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OK so just say you want to start a S.S. and you want to come off with a truth/light teaching that will result in the person having no faith in the end. What would be the best way to do this? Does any secret societies do this?

If you can make the truth have such depth can you strip a person for good or in other words can a person be exposed to enough of something to ruin them forever?

Has anyone that had any sort of faith studied truth/light and ended up with none. Still believing in something of supernatural substance if you will yet not fitting the most popular doctrines of faith?




posted on Jun, 15 2006 @ 09:21 PM
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Why connect 'light' and 'destroying faith', why would anyone teaching 'light' want to destroy faith? Why are you putting negative connotations on 'light', which is universally considered to be a 'pure and positive' aspect???

Why do you conisder the truth to be a danger to faith?

[edit on 15-6-2006 by Nygdan]



posted on Jun, 15 2006 @ 10:07 PM
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I think this idea you have is under the catagory of "Brain Washing" and not really to poiniant on anything absolutely direct? S.S. and not so S.S. have been doing it for age's , I mean look at what Jim Jones did with his follower's in the end. It is purely perception of the truth's that may be. And I have to agree with Nydgan, I don't think it is even possible to relate a universal belief to an acqusation of self control or self endulgence's of the mind.
IMO


[edit on 15-6-2006 by Allred5923]



posted on Jun, 16 2006 @ 02:51 AM
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The only way that I can understand this question and answer it fully is to use Christianity as an example, as I believe you have done. If, by some strange circumstance, a person of devout Godly faith is approached by an Order, carrying with them some earthshattering, undeniable truth that God does not exist; that the world is as it is by some logical and completely coincidental occurance, which can be proven by said Order, then yes. I believe it is possible to shatter someone's faith with truth, so long as this "truth" is along the lines I listed above, or something near to it. But there is an issue with this concept. First, if someone possessed information such as this, would they truly waste their time and energies by forming a secret society? What would be its purpose? And if the Order was already such a group, such as the Illuminati or so, what would hiding the truth do for them? This would be something that would impact the faithful on a global scale, but I can not see this as "light", without drawing a shadow over that very light itself. If you mean that it might "illuminate" truth, then perhaps. But I would have to agree with Nygdan. Light and Truth are one and the same. It is only in dire times and by dire people that both are corrupted by darkness.

[edit on 16-6-2006 by EdenKaia]



posted on Jun, 16 2006 @ 03:16 AM
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OK take your faith and shove it with Buddhism or any "Magickal" Practice.

You don't need brain washing, you just need to come to the conclusion that god that
you believed in is your own conscious mind and nothing more, and the god everyone
else believes in is just their own ego glorifying itself for the sake of security
and throwing responsibility onto.

Make sense?



posted on Jun, 16 2006 @ 04:18 AM
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Originally posted by Legalizer
OK take your faith and shove it with Buddhism or any "Magickal" Practice.
You don't need brain washing, you just need to come to the conclusion that god that you believed in is your own conscious mind and nothing more, and the god everyone else believes in is just their own ego glorifying itself for the sake of security and throwing responsibility onto. Make sense?

Thank you for that completely one sided, closed minded, atheistic statement. The pure power in your conviction has dissolved my doubts!
But seriously, truth is in the mind of the believer. To say that brainwashing is not necessary, but attempting to convolute another's perspective by telling them to "see the light" is no different. From this you gain no real answers, and most often you find yourself at yet another, even more mystifying crossroads than where you stood before. No answers. More questions.
No man can tell another where his path lies. Each person carries within them a destiny foretold by themselves alone. I can understand the belief that one must pave their own road, and place the blame of their mistakes on no one else's shoulders, but truth is a fickle thing when held against the light, and "truth", as we know it, can change in the passing of the tides. The shattering of faith can come with anything--a phrase, a statement, an action. But more than all else, it comes hardest from within. A man spends most of his life searching for a sense of peace that makes him whole. If that peace is religion, then so be it, for he is happy. What peace comes from tearing down another's totem? Most especially when you have nothing to support yourself but your very own opinion, which is the basis of your unprovoked attack to begin with? Finally, where does this leave our question? Still unanswered, and still hanging in waiting for this "truth" to come to light. No one truly carries the answers, for in those that have faith, there is no "truth" that can ever tear it down. For those that have found peace without it, then there is no "truth" but that which beats within them each day. Either way, a man is at peace. It is only when you make war with yourself and others over these causes, that truth becomes convoluted by sparring opinions and standardization. Let those that do not share in your convictions be, so long as their life is better for their own beliefs. Engage with them only when they seem lost, or actively seek their own little war. For in this time destiny is fair game, and those people never really seem to know what they want anyway.

[edit on 16-6-2006 by EdenKaia]



posted on Jun, 16 2006 @ 05:22 AM
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What?
You went on for paragraphless paragraphs repeating some other persons dogma, at least I'm certain I've read all that in a dozen other places before, with paragraphs.

The answer to this persons question has been answered in my post.
I'll rephrase it.

If you want a person to have no faith at all, faith being a dependance and un-critical acceptance of dogma, then you simply teach them to see that their own consciousness creates the world around them, and that everyone else is doing the same thing. Even if they are full of faith in something that doesn't exist, its their perception that colors everything they witness, not the invisible non existing entity.

This can easily be proved by giving them drugs, or keeping them awake for too long, any many other sensory deprivation and stimulation techniques.

Look at the old churches and the new churches and their sensory stimulation methods.

Why would you want to do this?
Well for money and power over people, like any old religion, for starters.
A secret society, like the original poster suggests, would not get far without money.

If you want your secret society to think freely without religious moral guilts then
you have to free them of their "faith" first. For instance if your secret societies'
seventh level ritual is an orgy, well they had better lose that religion before they
attain that level of initiate or they won't be having much fun at the secret
society seventh level sexy picnic.

If you want your secret society to go about their lives ruthlessly acquiring wealth
and power then you have to free them of their faith. Skull and Bones for example....
Those people with the hooty owl as another...

Religion is only an opinion, and mostly opinion of dead people that living people
accept as truth because it has been shown that humans get a bit of a rush
when they lie to themselves and believe the lie to be true.

Brainwashing by the way takes very certain actions.
Control someones food, sex, sleep, and social interaction, those are brainwashings master techniques. Add to that pain and fear and drugs you can make very good pawns and patsies for your secret society.

There is a method to the madness.








[edit on 16-6-2006 by Legalizer]



posted on Jun, 16 2006 @ 05:28 AM
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sounds kinda like Stockholm Syndrome


en.wikipedia.org...



posted on Jun, 16 2006 @ 03:03 PM
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Originally posted by bookling
OK so just say you want to start a S.S. and you want to come off with a truth/light teaching that will result in the person having no faith in the end. What would be the best way to do this? Does any secret societies do this?

If you can make the truth have such depth can you strip a person for good or in other words can a person be exposed to enough of something to ruin them forever?

Has anyone that had any sort of faith studied truth/light and ended up with none. Still believing in something of supernatural substance if you will yet not fitting the most popular doctrines of faith?


Nothing ever attempted has been enough to eradicate faith, since it still exists. And we all know there have been attempts enough to fill volumes.

There were those who during the various attempts have denied their faith. There were those who didn't. I doubt if there has ever been follow-up on those who did to see whether they stayed "denied" or not. The ones who didn't mostly died, so follow-up there will have to wait.

I may be missing something, but if so apparently other posters did also: Are you speaking of truth/light as a particular teaching as in Truth/Light?


Can't answer to your last question without more information.

But I want you to know I do take you seriously and would not mind continuing this.



posted on Jun, 16 2006 @ 03:33 PM
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If "light" is 'truth' then are you asking if that with enough truth does one put aside faith? Yes it is called belief!



posted on Jun, 16 2006 @ 03:45 PM
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Originally posted by Legalizer
What?
You went on for paragraphless paragraphs repeating some other persons dogma, at least I'm certain I've read all that in a dozen other places before, with paragraphs.

The reason it sounds so familiar is because it has been said countless times before. That doesn't make it someone else's dogma, it makes it reasonable conclusion. If a vast majority of a populous agree to a certain belief, then that belief is by default the most reasonable to that group, regardless of whether or not the dogma makes much sense to anyone else. And in brief response to your attack on my paragraphs, or lack thereof, I'll just place this here for review of your own grammatical prowess:

OK take your faith and shove it with Buddhism or any "Magickal" Practice.
You don't need brain washing you just need to come to the conclusion that god that you believed in is your own conscious mind and nothing more, and the god everyone else believes in is just their own ego glorifying itself for the sake of security and throwing responsibility onto.
Make sense



The answer to this persons question has been answered in my post.
I'll rephrase it. If you want a person to have no faith at all, faith being a dependance and un-critical acceptance of dogma, then you simply teach them to see that their own consciousness creates the world around them, and that everyone else is doing the same thing. Even if they are full of faith in something that doesn't exist, its their perception that colors everything they witness, not the invisible non existing entity.

The question was actually whether or not exposure to extreme truth would strip them of their faith. Telling them that their beliefs are just in their head and having nothing to back it up doesn't change anything. What have you really taught them? Another opinion, and nothing more.
To strip such a devout person of their faith by means of alternate realities and forced beliefs would be brainwashing. Meaning that you are going against the grain of everything that has been accepted by them from birth, and replacing their beliefs with something on an entirely different side of the spectrum. Brainwashing.


Religion is only an opinion, and mostly opinion of dead people that living people accept as truth because it has been shown that humans get a bit of a rush
when they lie to themselves and believe the lie to be true.

Religion has been around for as long as man has walked this earth, and will continue to be around for far longer than you will. The rush humans get from lying to themselves only comes when they initially realize they are lying and act on it. As I have stated before, if your life is better in believing that religion is an opinion created in the minds of the faithful, then more power to you. The point is that you can never prove that it is merely that, an opinion, to those that carry strong in their conviction, so why waste your breath stating something that you can't back up anyway?


Brainwashing by the way takes very certain actions.
Control someones food, sex, sleep, and social interaction, those are brainwashings master techniques. Add to that pain and fear and drugs you can make very good pawns and patsies for your secret society.
There is a method to the madness.

Who is arguing with this?



posted on Jun, 17 2006 @ 06:02 PM
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Can enough light remove faith ? ..... and you want to come off with a truth/light teaching that will result in the person having no faith in the end.


What you refer to is the "false light". And the "truth" shall set you free; not blind you.


If you can make the truth have such depth can you strip a person for good or in other words can a person be exposed to enough of something to ruin them forever?


No man can be stripped of anything good unless he first chooses it. Any man that wishes to remain stripped shall have it! A man will never remain in any shell hell that he chooses to leave.


Has anyone that had any sort of faith studied truth/light and ended up with none. Still believing in something of supernatural substance if you will yet not fitting the most popular doctrines of faith


To teach that we are souls is beneficial. To teach that we are mere matter or animals devoid of mind and soul is dangerous. The Western brotherhoods of the left are often teaching that all spiritual phenomena are merely "nature spirits" but in reality, they are contacting passed over human beings and often abusing them. When you join certain lodges such like these you are trained to be a materialist and the false light you receive is that of illusions.

Scientists see matter as reality; yet they see **Illusions**.
Religious zealots see God; yet they **Hallucinate**.

The false light is to go into an extreme in either direction. If you reach for balance no false light can ever blind you.



posted on Jun, 17 2006 @ 06:34 PM
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Originally posted by bookling
Has anyone that had any sort of faith studied truth/light and ended up with none. Still believing in something of supernatural substance if you will yet not fitting the most popular doctrines of faith?


The answer to your question is yes. This is exactly what happened in my life and how I come to believe as I believe.

I was born to and raised by two Pentecostal hellfire and brimstone preachers. I actually lived inside the church as I grew up. The older I got the more I realized I didn’t/couldn’t believe as my parents did. I went on a spiritual quest for light. For answers that I could not find in the narrow world my parents lived in.

My travels eventually lead me to become a spiritual anarchist. I believe dearly in God, I just don’t believe in religion, any religion. Along the way I learned that each and every designated path is a path away from God, light and love. Religions divide people and create us/them mentalities. They are a form of brainwashing. God created man, man created religions.

I also came to the conclusion that my beliefs are mine and mine alone. I wouldn’t dream of asking someone else to believe as I do. I am a cult of one. If you want to join my cult the answer is no, go start your own damn cult.


I hope this helps answer your question.

wupy

[edit on 17-6-2006 by mrwupy]



posted on Jun, 17 2006 @ 10:14 PM
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And just to add, being a spiritual anarchist means I have to form my own beliefs and trust in God that they are true.

This is where I am so far.

I believe it’s important to occasionally sit down and take stock in the things you believe in. Sure, its easy to list off the things you don’t believe or have discarded because your journey has taught you better, still, it’s often hard to actually list off the things that you do believe. I learned this in a fellowship discussion group long ago. Since then I’ve had to occasionally sit down and put on paper the things that have been bouncing around inside my head.

I start with the last list I made and remove the things I’ve learned to be, well, not wrong but no longer applying to me. Then I add what I’ve learned over the time since I wrote it and go from there.

It makes things allot easier when I’m asked about my beliefs as well. Rather than having to go into a drawn out explanation I can hand them the latest list. I highly recommend this to everyone as well.

Matter of fact, I have learned that its thru the sharing and caring we have in each others lives that we are best able to grow.

Now:

I believe that before man, before the Earth, before the beginning of time, the truth existed, it’s the only thing that has never changed. It’s the only thing that has never needed to change.

I believe that unconditional love is the greatest gift you can give to this world, And to yourself.

I believe that the path someone walks does not make him or her holy. They must make the path holy regardless of the path they have chosen.

I believe that if you can’t see god in everything, than you can’t see god in anything.

I believe that there is only one race, the human race, and we’re all in it together, whether we like it or not.

I believe that forgiveness is not a gift to the person that wronged you; Forgiveness is a gift to yourself so that you may go on with your life in peace.

I believe that even though we express ourselves individually our spirits are all a part of the same being, the one who created all things. E Pluribus Unum, Out of many (people) One (spirit).

I believe that my true reflection will never be seen in a mirror before me, but in the eyes and hearts of the people I share my life with.

I believe that each of us has only one true gift we can give to this world, the gift of ourselves. Everything else will fall away

I believe that political power in the hands of religion has always, always, led to tyranny. I also believe that political power in the hands of religion will always lead to tyranny.

I believe that I have yet to meet a person who could not teach me something, if I will only pay attention.

I believe that every religion or designated path is in itself a cult, for no other reason than it narrows your mind from the broader realities.

I believe that your soul is as unique as the fingerprints on your hand. No one knows what you have learned and of the journey which brought you here. No one that is, except you. That’s why it’s important to share.

I believe that hugs make kids grow. (And they’re not bad for adults either)

I believe that though I am but a drop in the ocean, I am still the ocean. So are you.

I believe that if your heart is at peace with the life your living and your soul is at peace with your creator, who ever you consider that creator to be, than everything else is just icing on the cake.

I believe that hate is a poison to the soul of the person that is doing the hating.

I believe that all who teach us leave a part of their soul in ours.

I believe that in our darkest and most personally damned moments there is a light shining brightly to guide us, and we never realize that till long years have given us perspective.

I believe that your life is a reflection of your perspective on it. If you go around seeing things as being terrible then they inherently will be.

I believe that I have much to learn, and I know I will enjoy every moment of learning it.

Love and light,

wupy



posted on Jun, 17 2006 @ 10:23 PM
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Gosh that was beautiful Wupy - did you author all of this yourself? I tell you, I felt really good reading those lines, so thank you and god bless you



posted on Jun, 17 2006 @ 10:26 PM
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Originally posted by Nygdan


Why connect 'light' and 'destroying faith', why would anyone teaching 'light' want to destroy faith? Why are you putting negative connotations on 'light', which is universally considered to be a 'pure and positive' aspect???

Why do you conisder the truth to be a danger to faith?

[edit on 15-6-2006 by Nygdan]
I read this thread and then pondered it for a while trying to think of an answer but I can't put it any better then Nygdan
and thanks for your insightful response.



posted on Jun, 17 2006 @ 10:28 PM
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Originally posted by sobolwolf
Gosh that was beautiful Wupy - did you author all of this yourself? I tell you, I felt really good reading those lines, so thank you and god bless you
I've got to agree with you
to both Wupy and Nygdan.



posted on Jun, 17 2006 @ 10:45 PM
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Originally posted by sobolwolf
Gosh that was beautiful Wupy - did you author all of this yourself? I tell you, I felt really good reading those lines, so thank you and god bless you


I authored about 98% of it.

"If you can't see God in everything than you can't see God in anything." Is a very old Sikh quote.

"I believe that the path someone walks does not make him or her holy. They must make the path holy regardless of the path they have chosen" I read this somewhere but not sure where.

The rest I wrote.

All of it I believe.

wupy



posted on Jun, 17 2006 @ 10:48 PM
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Originally posted by mrwupy

Originally posted by sobolwolf
Gosh that was beautiful Wupy - did you author all of this yourself? I tell you, I felt really good reading those lines, so thank you and god bless you


I authored about 98% of it.

"If you can't see God in everything than you can't see God in anything." Is a very old Sikh quote.

"I believe that the path someone walks does not make him or her holy. They must make the path holy regardless of the path they have chosen" I read this somewhere but not sure where.

The rest I wrote.

All of it I believe.

wupy
Wupy I wish I could express myself with the beauty that you do. I'm envious but happy I got to read it. Thank you for sharing.



posted on Jun, 17 2006 @ 11:01 PM
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Originally posted by gallopinghordes
Wupy I wish I could express myself with the beauty that you do. I'm envious but happy I got to read it. Thank you for sharing.


Anything i've written here can be shared with those you think might benefit from it. Pass it along to friends if you think they may enjoy it as well. Better yet, send them a link and introduce them to ATS. They may be eternally grateful


wupy

[edit on 17-6-2006 by mrwupy]



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