A cheap trick called astrology

After receiving the umpteenth email (spam) that tries to tell me who I am I just had to get this of my chest. Astrology – horoscopic astrology to be precise – is nothing more than a cheap trick. Ah, right there I gave an opening for some attacks, so this is the part where I say why I make such a statement, right?

I have little knowledge of the “science” of astrology, but I will now try my hand at it. I’ve got some star charts, complicated math formulas and a good calculator. Let’s take random but well-known member. Err… Springer. Now, I don’t really know Springer much past brief, business-like conversations. Springer’s birthday is 25 May, which makes him a Gemini:

1. Springer has a good sense of humor.
2. Springer is often misunderstood by his friends and family.
3. Springer is a hard worker, but will never decline a moment to just laze around the house.
4. Springer is very creative and likes freedom.
5. Springer is very patient in general, but can get enraged if you push the wrong buttons.

How did I do? 3 out of 5? 5 out of 5? Am I a brilliant astrologer? No. Take the same character traits I mentioned above, and replace “Springer” with you name. How did I do that? I didn’t look at any astrology charts. It’s a cheap trick. Most people believe they’ve got a good sense of humor. Most people feel misunderstood by the other people. Most people believe they’re hard working. And so on. And even if you recognized only 3/5 (60%) of the traits in yourself, you are convinced that I’m a good astrologer – giving me some margin for error. Because you are only looking for the traits that match your personality, and not paying much attention to the ones I miss.
This was only a small-scale example. We could go to a bigger scale, but I’ve got only 6,000 characters, so moving along.

Go visit some sites that give the “personalities” of the star signs (Zodiac). Read it critically! Let’s use me for another example. I’m a Gemini as well. According to this site I am adaptable and versatile, yet nervous and tense. Now these characteristics are so broad that they could apply to anyone, and could mean just about anything. Am I versatile in bed? Am I nervous before going to an important meeting?
And to make their trick even more believable they often use synonyms (nervous and tense are exactly the same thing, no?) or antonyms. Antonyms? Yes. Let’s take a look at my (me as an) example again. “They [Gemini’s] are affectionate, courteous, kind, generous, and thoughtful towards the poor and suffering” but in another place they say, “…sullenly discontented, hard-hearted, cold, self-centered…”. So basically they’ve got me on both ends. I’ll read how generous I am and later I’ll recognize that I can be self-centered and cold at times. Fact is that these two parts are antonyms. SO either way I’ll recognize myself as a Gemini. Clever huh?

To cheapen the trick even more, they’ll use “big words”. Let’s have a look.
“In love they are fickle, not intentionally so but because of the basic inconsistency of their emotional nature, which has an amoral aspect to it.”
“Since they lack the quality of conscientiousness, they are apt to fight a losing battle in any attempts they make to be moral.”
What the hell does all of that mean? It sounds impressive, so I’ll just have to believe that it’s some of my personality traits. Why use a word like “conscientiousness” when you can just say “neatness”? Because it doesn’t do the trick. BTW what does neatness have to do with fighting battles or morality? Nothing? (And note moral vs. amoral.)

>>>Continued

They use exactly the same sort of “cheap tricks” in the daily horoscopes. “You will meet a dark stranger today ”… Huh? Do you have any ideas how many strangers I meet every day?
“People are sympathetic to your career needs. An agreement could fall easily into place.... Positive deeds bring you the benefits and advantages that you desire.... Network. Exchange ideas. Enjoy social as well as business meetings.... You can support and encourage the arts.... Your efforts can bring you recognition. ”
What does all of that mean? How does it help me? Again the “ideas” are so broad that it could mean anything! My efforts can bring me recognition? I would bloody well hope so. And see how they use words like “can, may, could, would, etc.” There is no guarantee that it is a definite. And people get paid to do this?

Funny how people live their lives by the daily horoscopes. You can find them everywhere. Especially newspapers and magazines. People read it religiously. Funny how something like astrology has a place in the modern world but there’s no place for religion in schools and public places?

Now I know a few astrologers will slap me on the wrist and say I’ve got it all wrong. “Astrology is actually a complex science that uses complicated mathematical formulas to calculate…” Where’s the scientific proof? Where’s the proof that celestial bodies hold the keys to our destiny? Where’s the proof that Mars action and the moon rules my personality?

Let’s say that there is truth in astrology. Let’s say that astrology is a definite science:
When we go to see a doctor, you want to see the best doctor. You want the best teachers for your kids. We want to be “served” by only the best professionals possible. But do you know what credentials the astrologer of the newspaper has? What makes him/her qualified to “tell you your future”? For all we know it could be the janitor that writes the horoscopes… Yet people live their lives according to what they read in the horoscopes? They read the horoscopes faithfully day after day. If it tells them to be careful how they spend their money, they don’t go on a spending spree. If it tells them that they will be lucky, they spend an extra buck on the national lottery. Yet, they’re more than willing to scoff at religions. There is no god? Ridiculous, isn’t it.

Please don’t send me your cheap tricks. You’re wasting much-needed bandwidth.

Originally posted by Gemwolf
Springer’s birthday is 25 May, which makes him a Gemini

I just wanted to make a comment on that, though, as it helps prove astrology wrong. The way they figure out what "Sun sign" you are is simply by noting what constellation on the zodiac the Sun is in at your time of birth. Well, as Gemworlf said, that would be Gemini, according to astrology. Though, going by the cold, hard facts we see this...

Image of the Sun's location on May 25th, 2006


As you can see, the Sun is clearly located in Taurus. Now, before people start clamoring that it needs to be set for the year of his birth too...

Image of the Sun's location on May 25th, 1963


Again, the Sun is clearly in Taurus.

I guess that's what people get when they decide to put stock into something that is based off of a conglomeration of calculations made over 5000 years ago by the ancient Egyptians, Chinese and Greeks...

I have heard it said, that just as the Moon has an effect on the Earths tides or even woman.. so too does the Planetary masses. This is what I have heard, and about the only part of astrology I will entertain. Obviously today we understand that the Moons gravity influences the tides, but people back then did know about gravity.

Knowledge was not a common aspect of society in those times, you must recognise differences in these points of history. Back in the old days, astrology was considered complicated, today knowledge is wide spread. Every one almost, can add, back then uh no.

It is the planetary influences astrology claims effects us. Back then Mars was the War God, when Mars was close, it was beleived it's influence would have some properties, just as the Moon does the tides.

Hope that helps.

what is that that your useing in the pictures... Can you tell me... Astrology has kinda interested me....

Originally posted by cmdrkeenkid

Originally posted by Gemwolf
Springer’s birthday is 25 May, which makes him a Gemini

I just wanted to make a comment on that, though, as it helps prove astrology wrong. The way they figure out what "Sun sign" you are is simply by noting what constellation on the zodiac the Sun is in at your time of birth. Well, as Gemworlf said, that would be Gemini, according to astrology. Though, going by the cold, hard facts we see this...

It's called precession and it means you are a starsign off by very ~2400 years. in other words, use a star map for reliable measurements.

Originally posted by Gemwolf
Astrology – horoscopic astrology to be precise – is nothing more than a cheap trick.

Actually it's the means to a cheap trick. In my scurrilous youth I would keep a fair number of astrology books on hand for "mood reading," usually an endeavor following a romantic evening out... If an astrology book says "love is in the air" then it damn sure was in this monkey's lair. Did I believe it? I'd have to say yes, the proof is in the pudding (or clothes heaped on the floor). Would I guide my life by it? A resounding no. I view astrology as one of those harmless fictional pursuits that can lead to hours of enjoyment.

But that's all in my past now, my philandering days are over... I've reformed, and now hold women in the highest regard.

Zodiac Monkeys, not just for a lot of Bull anymore...

One of my best friends father is a Jungian Astrologer - and he's always flipping out over my chart interpretation. I keep it around as a conversation piece, not so much as a means of divinitation or anything of that sort.

He's constantly commenting on the placement of certian nodes and auspicious angles, and for the most part - these things completely elude me. He's a brilliant man in his field, but has a hard time transposing his terminology over into laymen's terms, so it comes out as the standard "You're hardworking, dilligent, a teacher...etc".

I've tried to figure out what he's saying by referencing several books and sites - but this "new light" regarding star charts really blows the lid off his theories.

Just curious...where might I find these star charts of the night sky?

I'd love to present this scenario to him next time we cross paths, and see if it affects his calculations. (My chart is really the only thing he's ever inclined to discuss when he makes his appearances).

Thanks again for the insight.

When Astrology was made, people lived either "the good life" or "the poor life" - there was no such thing as middle class. Supported by the church, Astrology gave people some meaning, some reason for their less than beautiful existance. It was called something, can't quite remember what, but it had to do with "people in power were born to be in power, and people who work for them were born to work for them".

Claiming that gravity influences your birth may be true... but if Jupiter was rising when I was born, then you have to remember that the gravitational pull of the doctor was much stronger at that moment than the gravitational pull of Jupiter.

Originally posted by ADVISOR
I have heard it said, that just as the Moon has an effect on the Earths tides or even woman.. so too does the Planetary masses. This is what I have heard, and about the only part of astrology I will entertain. Obviously today we understand that the Moons gravity influences the tides, but people back then did know about gravity.

The Moon and the Sun both affect the tides. As for the effect on people? I think it's pretty much nil, despite what the new agers say.

As for planetary masses affecting people, that's even less. For example, a mother holding her newborn baby has more gravitational influence on the child than any of the planets at their closest to Earth.

Back in the old days, astrology was considered complicated, today knowledge is wide spread. Every one almost, can add, back then uh no.

It's not only that, but astrology was a deep basis of the ancient religions. If you were the person who studied the heavens you were also the priest.

It is the planetary influences astrology claims effects us. Back then Mars was the War God, when Mars was close, it was beleived it's influence would have some properties, just as the Moon does the tides.

The distance of the planets from each other really hasn't changed for billions of years, so I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "when Mars was close."

Originally posted by TristanBW9456
what is that that your useing in the pictures... Can you tell me... Astrology has kinda interested me....

The program I used is Starry Night Pro. That version is quite expensive, but you can pick up the basic version called Starry Night Astronomy or Starry NIght Backyard for under $30. Also, that's astronomy.

Originally posted by Long Lance
It's called precession and it means you are a starsign off by very ~2400 years.

Good! I wanted to see if someone knew about that. Though I think it's closer to about 4000 years that everything is off, as most of the observing of the night sky was done then by the ancient Egyptians, Chinese, and Greeks. Also, back then, the star Thuban in the constellation of Draco was the "North Star."

Originally posted by GENERAL EYES
Just curious...where might I find these star charts of the night sky?

As I said peviosuly in this post, I use some astronomy software... Though if you want actual hard, paper charts, you can pick up something very basic from a hobby shop. Most carry astronomy related tools, books, etc...

And where are all of ATS's astrologers...?

[edit on 6/3/2006 by cmdrkeenkid]

Astrology is used for magic and to know what weakens and strength you have in magic. Astrology aids you in magic and also tells you a lot about your self. Most astrologers are not qualified and even if they qualified you must have experiences in the subject. Also it depends on your teacher I mean where did he learn it. Was it genuine or not. Coz most people will not teach you to the full extent and the true meaning. Even in magic it’s like this. All depends where you get or who trained you.

I myself use astrology for magic and in time you will know what’s true and what’s not about astrology. You must have experiences and where did you get the information or who taught you.

Originally posted by cmdrkeenkid
The distance of the planets from each other really hasn't changed for billions of years, so I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "when Mars was close."

The orbits haven't changed much, but the distance between say the earth and mars changes all the time. When the earth is between the sun and mars, mars is close, when mars is one the other side of the sun from the earth it is further away right?

Good! I wanted to see if someone knew about that. Though I think it's closer to about 4000 years that everything is off, as most of the observing of the night sky was done then by the ancient Egyptians, Chinese, and Greeks. Also, back then, the star Thuban in the constellation of Draco was the "North Star."

Well it's pretty common knowledge. You know Age of Aquarius and all that stuff. Here is an article about it www.astro.com...

And where are all of ATS's astrologers...?

Probably ignoring this thread... I don't know of a single astrologer who thinks the newspaper horoscopes are accurate, or thinks that one sign can describe your personality. All you have to do is look around you and you can see there are more than 12 personalities out there.

I only know the basics of doing a natal chart (and I'm not very good at that) but this is what I do.
First make a chart of your birth (here's mine)


First you interpret the rising sign, then what sign each planet(+the sun and moon) is in and how the planets relate to each other (aspects).

That's where I stop as it takes me a few hours to get that far. What you end up with is several pages worth of stuff describing the person.

Gemwolf asked how do you know the qualifications of an astrologer? Really the same way you would know the qualification of a plumber, a photographer, or anyone else. references, samples of their work, membership in trade organizations, etc... In other words just be a smart consumer.

[edit on 6/3/2006 by Cug]

I wish to go on record saying that…astrology is anything but “cheap”!
1. Astrology was invented by the ancient Chinese and those babies were responsible for a bunch of human advancements.

2. Astrology has provided an alternate framework for fantasy and simplistic explanations for things we do not understand. If you ask me…religion could use the relief.

3. Of course, astrology is complete poppycock or was it balderdash, I can’t remember so, lets say it’s both.

4. You have to love it when astrologers wax eloquently on advice to simpletons based upon calculations using Polaris as the perennial North Star when it was not the North Star when the Chinese invented their failed attempt at astronomy and the basis for the calculations which are used to mislead the naïve.

The Mayans, on the other hand, were real astronomers and had very good math not to mention the zero for calculations maybe 1000 years before the Greeks gave it to the Egyptians.

Hummmmm

i will have to agree, the astrology & horoscope entertainment of today, I find 'wanting'...

but there has been a concerted effort by organized religions & media to remake astrology & horoscopes fall below the threshold of 'pseudo-science'

back in the Jesus birth era, weren't the Magi, the learned & respected 'wisemen',
able to get an audience with the King Herod...weren't these scholarly men who were adept & practiced in the intricacies of Astrology
[perhaps a form of Greek Astrology, or even Chaldean-Babylonian Astrology]
able to Discern/Interpert and follow that 'sign' in the sky, a 'Star' in the East...
and bring the gifts to the heavenly announced, future 'King of the Jews'
in scripture there were Angels, shepherds and the Magi (Astrologers) who either announced or proclaimed or honored Jesus' birth.

Astrology served its purpose, and the torch-was-passed to the Church, as it was later developed based on the Christ & Jesus teachings.
(or so the Church rationale goes)

right now astrology is down-&-out, but this too is just another 'cycle',
which is what astrology is founded upon...recurring cycles of many different periods.

betcha, someones' mind is grinding away at melding together the esoteric
nature of Astrology with the 'non-ordinary' almost mystical-magical properties
of subatomic energies in the Quantum Physics world...
non-locality and the connectivity of physical objects (like planets)
creating distortion in the fabric of time-space might be examples of
resurrecting a Quanta-Astrology theme...who knows?

Originally posted by HIH
Astrology is used for magic and to know what weakens and strength you have in magic. Astrology aids you in magic and also tells you a lot about your self... I myself use astrology for magic and in time you will know what’s true and what’s not about astrology.

Can you elaborate? How does astrology help you in magic, and if it does, what branch of magic is it?

Originally posted by TheB1ueSoldier

Can you elaborate? How does astrology help you in magic, and if it does, what branch of magic is it?

Ok for example let’s say if I have an exam and I need help. First I need to know the date operation, sign position of astrology, the house position, and planets in that position, moon phase and the sign it is in (which zodiac). What kind of magic you’re good at and not at, by check the chart you can aid you’re self. Its bit complicated and I’m sorry I can’t go any further, because I have agreed not to discuss out side. I had the best teacher the one who taught me magic. Understanding astrology helps you when you want to do magic and lot of things can be done not just this and that.

Originally posted by TheB1ueSoldier
Can you elaborate? How does astrology help you in magic, and if it does, what branch of magic is it?

Lets say you want to do a magical ritual to get a raise at work. Here are some ways astrology can help.

Use the sigil (seal) of Jupiter on a talisman.
Do the ritual on the day that corresponds with Jupiter. (Thursday)
Do the ritual during the planetary hour relating to Jupiter.
Make a chart for the planned time, and make sure Jupiter is well dignified, and see if there could be any problems. For example if the chart shows that there could be a loss in fortune you would be better off picking another date/time to do the ritual.

This is for Western Ceremonial Magick, but really many people use something like this.

Originally posted by Cug
Lets say you want to do a magical ritual to get a raise at work.

I like the normal way of doing your job incredibly well and asking and/or getting noticed for it. I guess I'm just old fashioned.

This is for Western Ceremonial Magick, but really many people use something like this.

So... Uh... This wouldn't work in the Eastern world? I thought magic was a universal thing?

Originally posted by cmdrkeenkid
I like the normal way of doing your job incredibly well and asking and/or getting noticed for it. I guess I'm just old fashioned.

All magick will do is light a fire under your butt, so you will work harder and get noticed.

This is for Western Ceremonial Magick, but really many people use something like this.

So... Uh... This wouldn't work in the Eastern world? I thought magic was a universal thing?

So... Uh... what part of "many people use something like this" made you think it won't work in the eastern world?

[edit on 6/5/2006 by Cug]

Originally posted by cmdrkeenkid

Originally posted by ADVISOR
I have heard it said, that just as the Moon has an effect on the Earths tides or even woman.. so too does the Planetary masses. This is what I have heard, and about the only part of astrology I will entertain. Obviously today we understand that the Moons gravity influences the tides, but people back then did know about gravity.

The Moon and the Sun both affect the tides. As for the effect on people? I think it's pretty much nil, despite what the new agers say.

[edit on 6/3/2006 by cmdrkeenkid]

I've heard of scientific reports and studies showing results that were pretty amazing, given the general assumption that the Sun and Moon only affect tides, not life. The studies involved, as much as I can recall, certain kinds of shellfish that responded to the Sun and Moon's changing effects of gravity on the Earth. They found that the shellfish's biological systems correlated with the gravity cycles, even though they were isolated from light and any other factors that would allow the shellfish to detect the gravity, other than simply sensing it in some unknown way.

In addition... if we are 70% water and the moon has such an influence on the tides, what makes you think its out of the realm of impossibility that it could affect us as well?