A cheap trick called astrology

Originally posted by ADVISOR
Back then Mars was the War God, when Mars was close, it was beleived it's influence would have some properties, just as the Moon does the tides.

Originally posted by Long Lance
It's called precession and it means you are a starsign off by very ~2400 years.

Originally posted by Yarium
When Astrology was made, people lived either "the good life" or "the poor life" - there was no such thing as middle class.

Originally posted by Cug
I don't know of a single astrologer who thinks the newspaper horoscopes are accurate, or thinks that one sign can describe your personality. All you have to do is look around you and you can see there are more than 12 personalities out there.

...
And so on.

So the general feeling and agreement is that astrology was invented many, many moons ago, and it had its place and function back then. We had human sacrifice back then as well. But we don't do that anymore... So how is it that we see astrology all around us on a daily basis? Why do so many people (that are "normal" people, i.e. not astrologers or "magicians" or into "magick") read it and take it so seriously? Why is it that there are legal battles going on (more in the past) to remove religion from the public face, but horoscopes will probably be there to the end of days? And they blindly believe something that has little scientific proof? Strange indeed...

Now there's a second group of opinions here. Those that believe astrology and Magic/Magick go hand in hand. Which type of astrology is used in the "magical" field? (I use quotations because I'm unsure of the correct term.) And I'm afraid I need to utter the words "Where's the proof?". Can something like astrology be proven? How would one know the difference between actual astrology and cheap tricks and coincidence?

On a bit of a side-note, since I started doing my homework for this thread - about a week ago - there's been some interesting activity at Wikipedia... more than 50 edits in a week. The controversy? The lack of evidence...

@ Mirthful Me - Thank you!

Originally posted by firebat
In addition... if we are 70% water and the moon has such an influence on the tides, what makes you think its out of the realm of impossibility that it could affect us as well?

Indeed. We may or may not be physically influenced by the planets, but how could "gravity" possibly influence our personalities and/or our future?

Originally posted by Gemwolf

Originally posted by firebat
In addition... if we are 70% water and the moon has such an influence on the tides, what makes you think its out of the realm of impossibility that it could affect us as well?

Indeed. We may or may not be physically influenced by the planets, but how could "gravity" possibly influence our personalities and/or our future?

Well, I'm definately no expert. But off the top of my head, doesn't the human brain contain a significant amount of water? With the evidence that gravity affects water and shellfish, it's not a HUGE stretch to think that gravity may also affect our brain. And our brain seems to play a pretty big role in the development of our personalities. We also make decisions with our brain which can influence what will happen to us in the future. Additionally, it's quite possible that gravity plays a much larger role than we think, just on the sub-conscious level. If that were the case, there's no telling how influential the moon and sun's gravity could be.

[edit on 5-6-2006 by firebat]

Originally posted by firebat
Well, I'm definately no expert. But off the top of my head, doesn't the human brain contain a significant amount of water? With the evidence that gravity affects water and shellfish, it's not a HUGE stretch to think that gravity may also affect our brain. And our brain seems to play a pretty big role in the development of our personalities. We also make decisions with our brain which can influence what will happen to us in the future. Additionally, it's quite possible that gravity plays a much larger role than we think, just on the sub-conscious level. If that were the case, there's no telling how influential the moon and sun's gravity could be.

It makes sense to some level. But again. Where's the proof. Shellfish behaviour is quite a distance from human personality traits and future predicting.

The problem with that theory: There is this "huge" variety of personalities. But according to astrology there are basically just 12 different personalities. And to make it more complicated your personality is based on the day you were born, not day-to-day gravitation (although the "daily predictions" works on a daily basis...). This means that a baby born 25 May supposedly has the same personality as a baby born on 16 June. Already the gravitational influences are different between these two days. Now imagine the difference of the planetary positions on 25 May 1963 and 30 May 2001. But supposedly they have the same personality traits - even thought the gravitational forces clearly differs. And as Commander Keen Kid pointed out - you would've been a Gemini if you were born 25 May 2000 - 4000 years ago (please correct me if I'm wrong, Keen). If you were born 25 May 2006 you are actually a Taurus...
And wouldn't a person born in the South-Eastern Hemisphere be under different gravitational influences/forces than a person born in the North-Western Hemisphere at the exact same moment? Yet astrology claims that these two people will have the same personalities.

I'm sorry, but there are just too many flaws in the horoscopic astrology theory to take it up seriously. If my approach is wrong - please point it out to me.

There is no problem with the theory... it only becomes a problem, for you, when you relate it to astrology. I've heard several different kinds of astrology.

I'm just going by the scientific data. That's the only proof we have. The evidence shows that shellfish are affected by gravity. So we know that life is affected. As I said earlier, it's not a stretch at all to suggest that its possible we also are affected. And I'm sure there are some internet roadrunners out there would could probably dig up some research on the subject.

Also, I'm not sure where you got "future predicting" from. All I meant was that if our brain contains a lot of water and we know that water is affected by the the Sun and Moon's gravity, then it's possible that the way our brain functions has some sort of relationship with the Sun and Moon. Heck, that would all but make sense seeing as how we've worshipped both for thousands and thousands of years. Anyway, if gravity affects the way we think, then it affects the decisions we make, thereby affecting our future. No predicitions involved.

[edit on 5-6-2006 by firebat]

[edit on 5-6-2006 by firebat]

Originally posted by firebat
There is no problem with the theory... it only becomes a problem, for you, when you relate it to astrology. I've heard several different kinds of astrology.
**Snip**
Anyway, if gravity affects the way we think, then it affects the decisions we make, thereby affecting our future. No predicitions involved.

I think we're arguing two different things here. My point is the flaws horoscopic astrology (yes, I'm aware that there are different kinds of astrology), the kind you read in the newspaper and glossy magazines. The kind that states that today is going to be a good or bad day and what kind of love life you're going to have today. That's predictions, no?

I like your theory that gravity may affect our personality because of our chemical composition. It's an interesting theory that warrants some investigation. Personally I doubt it to be true - until I see some hard evidence. Wouldn't a group of people in the same location behave the same way (personality wise)? They are under exactly the same gravitational forces, are they not? It's a long shot for astrology to say people will behave a certain way just because they were born on the same date (not even day). And that their birth date in cohesion with the current gravitational forces will lead to certain behaviour? I wonder...

Originally posted by Gemwolf
Couldn't a group of people in the same location behave the same way (personality wise)? They are under exactly the same gravitational forces, are they not? It's a long shot for astrology to say people will behave a certain way just because they were born on the same date (not even day). And that their birth date in cohesion with the current gravitational forces will lead to certain behaviour? I wonder...

I can only speculate...

But we know there are many, many factors that influence how someone's personality forms. I think astrology generalizes and basically predicts based on the likelyhood that certain kinds of personalities are from people who are born on certain dates... although the personalities do vary because there are other factors to be considered. That is why I don't totally buy into the aspect of it... but the gravity component of certain astrological theories make a lot of sense to me so I'm nowhere near ready to dismiss the entire thing as hogwash.

Also, I've never really studied astrology in-depth so it's quite possible that I haven't the slightest clue of what I'm talking about.

Originally posted by Gemwolf
So how is it that we see astrology all around us on a daily basis? Why do so many people (that are "normal" people, i.e. not astrologers or "magicians" or into "magick") read it and take it so seriously?

Mental deficiency? To be honest I don't know of a single person who takes newspaper horoscopes seriously (and correct me if I'm wrong but that seems to be your emphasis). Many read them for fun and get a kick out of it when it was "true" and don't give it a second thought when it's wrong. The people who do take it seriously are simply misusing occult techniques.

Now there's a second group of opinions here. Those that believe astrology and Magic/Magick go hand in hand. Which type of astrology is used in the "magical" field? (I use quotations because I'm unsure of the correct term.) And I'm afraid I need to utter the words "Where's the proof?". Can something like astrology be proven? How would one know the difference between actual astrology and cheap tricks and coincidence?

In Magick many/most parts of astrology are symbolic. For example the planets don't physically influence you, they are symbols that represent certain things in your mind. And when you do a "real" astrological reading it's influence over you is not physical in nature, it's more of a spiritual/mystical thing.

But I think I'm just confusing the issue here. When most people ask for proof of things link magick and other occult topics, they are asking someone to prove their definition of the subject, and not the definition that a practitioner would use.

'm sorry, but there are just too many flaws in the horoscopic astrology theory to take it up seriously. If my approach is wrong - please point it out to me.

IMHO what your are doing is sorta like saying Chess is an easy game to master, and to prove the statement proceed to go over the rules of checkers.

I think we're arguing two different things here. My point is the flaws horoscopic astrology (yes, I'm aware that there are different kinds of astrology), the kind you read in the newspaper and glossy magazines. The kind that states that today is going to be a good or bad day and what kind of love life you're going to have today. That's predictions, no?

LOL, I just read this.. well no need to finish this post.. as we are most definitely talking about different things.

Thanks for an informed reply, Cug. Here's a prediction for ya: I foresee Gemwolf being in conversation with Cug about Magick...

But yes. My main focus is horoscopic astrology - the kind we find in the newspapers - although it goes a bit beyond that. It may include "palm readers" that uses the same tricks. Looking at the amount of "What's your birthday, this email will reveal your personality" emails I get in my Inbox, somewhere, someone is taking it seriously. And if you look around you'll notice the horoscopic references in our daily reading material.

I question the fact that no one questions the ridiculous horoscopes that are sold to the world daily. Or am I taking it too seriously? Is all the daily horoscopes in all the newspapers all over the world just an inside joke? Do they print them just for entertainment value? A daily joke? Personally I think it's a bit pointless if no one takes it seriously... Someone gets paid to do it. Isn't any space in a newspaper valuable space? I'm glad to see that no-one at ATS takes the horoscopic astrology seriously... Shouldn't someone then tell the newspapers that they're wasting valuable ink? BTW when did it become "popular culture" to print horoscopes in newspapers (and other magazines)? And may I be so bold as to say that females enjoy their horoscopes far more than males?

Seriously people...

Why in the world do you think astrology works?!
Here's a pretty funny website that explains astrology and exposes it for what it really is, a blatant scam.

Astrology = $+up1d

And for those of you who are no doubt about to get offended by this website, its a satire. The entire website is full of ironic satires and rightfully outspoken criticism. Its kind of like the modern day "A Modest Proposal".

I grew up in a part of the world where astrology is inextricably meshed with the fabric of daily life -- where prospective spouses will only marry if their horoscopes are compatible, where important events and endeavours of all kinds, from sowing a field to building a hydroelectric project, are always begun at an astrologically-computed 'auspicious time' and where no statesman's retinue is complete without a (regularly consulted) astrologer of repute. Astrology is not a subject that fascinates me, but I have to admit to knowing a bit about it. I can't help knowing.

From that perspective, I'd like to make a few comments about things I've read on this very enjoyable thread. Let's begin with:

Originally posted by firebat
I've heard several different kinds of astrology.

You've heard right. For practical purposes, however, most believers identify two broad categories: Western and Eastern. Without going into detail, the main difference between them is that 'Western' astrologers identify a person's birth sign (Aries, Taurus, etc.) with the 'house' (roughly, constellation) occupied by the sun at the time of the person's birth. If the sun was in the house of Virgo, you're a Virgo. As am I.

The sun moves to a new 'house' every month, roughly speaking.

To 'Eastern' astrologers, the birth sign is the house that was 'ascendent', ie immediately above the eastern horizon, at the time of your birth. If Aries was rising at the time you were born, you're an Aries. As am I.

The ascendant changes every two hours.

The personality characteristics associated with birth signs are roughly the same in both systems. Therefore I have the personality of an Aries according to Eastern astrologers, but that of a Virgo according to Western astrologers.

Originally posted by Gemwolf
There is this "huge" variety of personalities. But according to astrology there are basically just 12 different personalities. And to make it more complicated your personality is based on the day you were born, not day-to-day gravitation (although the "daily predictions" works on a daily basis...). This means that a baby born 25 May supposedly has the same personality as a baby born on 16 June. Already the gravitational influences are different between these two days.

Look at the natal chart presented by Cug. It shows not only the position of the sun among the constellations but also those of the five planets known to the ancients, as well as the moon.

It is the interaction of influences from all these heavenly bodies at the time of a person's birth that is supposed to determine personality (as well as physiology, by the way). Each heavenly body determines certain aspects of personality and physiology. Some, like the sun and moon, are more influential than others. But it is the sum, or average, or whatever it is, that defines the person. When you add up the permutations and combinations of up to nine bodies with twelve zodiacal signs (and, amongst some Eastern astrologers, two additional 'nodes'), together with all the 'cuspal influences' and other complexities, you end up with a fairly 'huge' number of different personality types. Or so it's said.

Originally posted by Long Lance
It's called precession

Most astrologers understand precession and make calculations to eliminate its effect.

Originally posted by Cug
Gemwolf asked how do you know the qualifications of an astrologer? ...References, samples of their work, membership in trade organizations, etc. In other words just be a smart consumer.

Samples of their work? No astrologer on earth has yet averaged better than fifty percent accuracy on their predictions as far as I know. If you know of one, tell me.

References prove nothing. Any number of gullible people will give you any number of references to any number of charlatans.

As for taking the world of an astrologers' guild for anything... gosh, I'm almost tempted to use one of those smiley things to express my reaction to the thought.

Originally posted by firebat
They found that the shellfish's biological systems correlated with the gravity cycles, even though they were isolated from light and any other factors that would allow the shellfish to detect the gravity, other than simply sensing it in some unknown way.

If shellfish have evolved a reproductive or other biological cycle that is synchronized with terrestrial tides or the phases of the moon, it is likely that it would have become self-sustaining, even when there are no external, environmental cues to calibrate it by. It might slip over many generations (as has the human menstrual cycle), but probably not in a single generation or two.

No-one has any real idea what gravity is. It's probably the least understood 'force' in nature. But whatever it is, it's too weak to have the effects purpotedly exerted on human beings by the planets. Believers in astrology will have to look elsewhere for a source of the claimed influence.

Originally posted by GENERAL EYES
Just curious...where might I find these star charts of the night sky?

Right here. Enjoy.

And now, having thus enlightened you, I should like to add my own personal opinion, which accords with that of sayswho above: astrology is poppycock indeed. Balderdash too. Fiddlesticks, even.

Just look at the state of those countries where people set most store by astrology. They are among the poorest, foulest, most helpless, most miserable countries on the (pardon me) planet. If astrology had a grain of truth in it, things would surely be otherwise.

Astyanax, may I ask from which country you are? Eastern?

It's strange to see someone so informed about astrology - but sceptic at the same moment. In most cases astrologers (or rather people that know a bit more about astrology than Average Joe) are FOR astrology... Also, I've got a new question, which I guess you may be able to answer. Is there any relation between the Eastern Horoscopes (or rather the Chinese Horoscopes) and Western astrology? Meaning do they use the same planets and calculations? Hmm... Let's put it this way... Would a person doing Western Astrology come to the same conclusions as a Chinese Astrologer? At least in the broader sense?

Edit: Grammar

[edit on 7-6-2006 by Gemwolf]

Originally posted by Gemwolf
It's strange to see someone so informed about astrology - but sceptic at the same moment.

I was a gullible sort of fellow when I was younger.

Originally posted by Gemwolf
Is there any relation between the Eastern Horoscopes (or rather the Chinese Horoscopes) and Western astrology? Meaning do they use the same planets and calculations?

Got me there, didn't you? I'm an ignoramus about Chinese astrology. I know they use the same planets, which are associated with elements, seasons and human predispositions. However, Chinese horology is very strange: a twelve-hour day, a modified lunar calendar and so on, and their constellations are different as well. Moreover, there's this sixty-year cycle (twelve 'year types', e.g. dragon, horse, pig etc., multiplied by five 'planetary' elements (metal, fire, water etc.) which defines essential personality types in that system rather than the solar or ascendant dominance I talked about earlier. It seems unsystematic and ridiculously complicated compared with other forms of astrology, which are unsystematic and complicated enough themselves.

All the same, Chinese take this stuff very seriously. For example, 'fire horses' (people born in a Fire Horse year) are supposed to be desperately unlucky, and the last such year, 1966, produced an epidemic of abortions across China.

Would a person doing Western Astrology come to the same conclusions as a Chinese Astrologer? At least in the broader sense?

Does any astrologer come to the same conclusions as any other astrologer? I wonder. But to answer your question directly, the Chinese system seems very different to the others, mainly because of that sixty-year cycle, so maybe they wouldn't.

Then again...

Your original post talked about the ambiguous verbal trickery used by Sunday-paper astrologers to make their 'predictions' applicable to just about anyone. Consulting astrologers use this trick, too, but on the whole they rely more on intuition and well-honed psychological insight. A person who went to see a 'good' Chinese astrologer and a 'good' Western one might hear similar things from both, simply because both consultants would be drawing like conclusions about the person seated opposite them. If they had to make predictions or personality assessments based on location, date and time of birth alone, without seeing the person, I doubt there would be very much similarity.

In my earlier post, I used 'Eastern astrology' to refer to the system favoured by cultures in the Indian sphere (roughly the subcontinent itself, parts of Central Asia and most of Southeast Asia). I don't know if Chinese astrology ever got much beyond China. What do the Koreans and Japanese use? Can anyone enlighten us?

[edit on 8-6-2006 by Astyanax]

Yea but anything that classes people in those ways isn't accurate be it a psych test or whatever. Actual astrology is the same kind of thing as electron positions in a atom being known to useful ends - their positions in relation to one another do have different effects.

True about the Precession changing the actual locations in terms of what constellations the planets are actually seen in front of, Western astrology for some reason sticks to 0 degrees Aries as the sign-wheel-starter and an equal-sign system. Biodynamics uses the actual scale of the constellations, and Hindu astrology takes sidereal time into account but still has equal signs.

For example if you use how it looks in the sky then the Age of Aquarius doesn't actually begin until 2323 (using the Hindu zodiac) as that's when the Sun at Spring Equinox is rising against the background of the constellation Aquarius.

There is Astrology, and then there is Astrology...

What your describing here is what most people come across, popular astrology.


There is astrology far more intricate and complex than this. As far as its origins, it is based thousands of years ago when Astronomy and Astrology were one and the same.
The Mayans are a good example, excellent astronomers and also astrologers. Their entire concept of Time and Destiny depended on their observations of the stars, planets, eclipses and comets. People in ATS are flipping out over the 2012 end of the current mayan calendar cycle....well, that is Mayan Astrology on a Macro scale. It also exists in the micro or personal.

I have a friend that charts people's astrological "perspectives" for lack of a better word. It takes her 20-30 hours to complete for each person, and she is pretty good, not generalities but detailed.

Anyway, what abounds today are cheap imitations of what used to be.

Astrology is very complex. Simply reading a generic sun-sign horoscope will almost always be inaccurate. A person's personality is not determined by just looking at a sun sign. You have to look at more factors than just that.

I prefer to avoid new-agey type astrology, as Im not to keen on the New Age Movement as a whole. However, I do like to study the earlier less fuzzy bunny astrological texts and info.

And astrology is not just some cheap divination tool to be casually glanced at for amusement. Nor should it be a money making scam. Astrology is alot like the tarot. There is more to it than fortune telling. It holds deeper spiritual and estoric truths in its symbolism, and is used for many more things than just divination or planning the future.

If you study the glyphs, images, and descriptions of the zodiac and the planets, youll find its not simply some silly fortune telling toy, but a very fascinating and mind opening story.

Here's a link where you can get charts displayed for a wide range of times-places, it also goes some way to showing what variables there are to astrology, though anyone new to it will probably not be able to make head nor tail of what any of the variables are about, granted,


www.astro.com...


(if you want to use it you will have to enter the time-place data here,

www.astro.com...

)

very interesting and informative. thanks guys

Sorry if someone else has already said this, but i briefly skimmed through the two pages....and so i may have missed what was and wasn't mentioned.

ASTROLOGY was used for various different means,as a few here have said....
Found a few links that might be of interest..
Your sign beyond the zodiac

Also there was a site that said that had apparently the corrcet dates, but i cannot seem to remember where or what it was called.....


Also an extra Sign has been added in there......so all this time, many people have been reading their wrong star!


(briefly going into.religious)
There is also the Star of Bethlehem.....the three wise men followed!

some info here

here

Skepticreport.com
Time is not on Astrology's side
www.skepticreport.com...

and some info the Mayan date of 2012?
www.levity.com...

helen


EDIT .......found web site dates change.

We now find that there are 13 signs of the zodiac and the Sun no longer spends an equal amount of time in each sign.

The following list gives the calendar dates of the old zodiac star signs and the new zodiac star signs according to our best Astronomical prediction

HERE

[edit on 6/15/2006 by helen670]

Originally posted by Yarium
Claiming that gravity influences your birth may be true... but if Jupiter was rising when I was born, then you have to remember that the gravitational pull of the doctor was much stronger at that moment than the gravitational pull of Jupiter.

Gravity is a force that is still unexplainable to the human race. It is invincible, and has properties that we can NOT reproduce. Some people say Earth is just a really strong magnet. That is not true, because Ive seen a really strong magnet pick up a 3 ton pile of metal, yet was completely ineffective towards any other type of substance other than metal. Gravity attracts everything, and contains properties that are mysterious. To say a Doctor has its own gravitational pull is DUMB. The doctor had nothing more than a bit of Kinetic Energy.


Also... EVERY star, and every planet, has a gravitational force, its not just the planets in our solar system, nor just our sun. But everything in outer space effects us at birth. And its not JUST gravity that effects our birth, there are also other invisible unthinkable energy's at work.



Also, many peoples readings can be wrong because some people are born on CUSPS. I for one was born on March 21st. March 21st is on a cusp , a cusp is a situation where your sun sign is in transition from one sign to the next. I was born between Aries and Pieces. So I have the attributes of both a pieces and aries person.

As an end to my comment, I dont take any horoscopes serious. There was a time where a horoscope totally caught my eye, because I read it at the end of my day, and the horoscope TOTALY matched my day and every aspect. But then a year later, on the EXACT same day just a year later, that SAME EXACT horoscope came up. Word for word the same. That was from MSN.com horoscopes.

But anyway.. there is no doubt in my mind that the position of the sun, and stars, and planets, effect your birth. Knowing the exact effects is probably nothing more than speculation.

[edit on 23-6-2006 by LAES YVAN]