Agnostic Christianity?

In the past few years, I've done a lot of thinking about/changing/contemplating my belief in God, his existence, and what he stands for. Originally, I was a Christian, and although I still have faith in Jesus Christ, a lot of people, I believe, wouldn't say that I am a Christian. I've done research, spoken with people, and recently took a World Religions class in college. Although the class isn't in any way what got me started thinking about all of this, it granted me a lot more knowlege (Mostly thanks to a great teacher) and viewpoints than I could have ever gained elsewhere. At this point in time, I have almost no idea where I stand. As I mentioned, I still feel a connection with Christ and God, but that's about as far as it goes. In fact, I'm almost sure that there is no way that anyone can ever be completely sure who or what God is/represents. I barely scathed the surface of the pool of knowlege that exists out there, and if the general population were aware of most of this stuff I think it would really change their views on religion. That's not to say that anything can proove that Jesus or God don't exist, but there are certainly things that require a lot of thinking. Things like huge similarities from the stories in the bible to stories that were written literally hundreds (Maybe thousands) of years before the bible was written, or proven influences from other religions to the modern bible. How can anybody really ever know what's true or false out there?

Carrying over from this thought, I as a person cannot accept Hell. To me, there is no way that a loving, all powerful, and all knowing God could ever let one of his creations go to a place of eternal torture when it is perfectly in his power to save them. And to pile more ontop of that, there are so many religions and beliefs out there who have just as much faith and proof in their own religion, how can flawed creatures all be expected to make the right "choice"?

I didn't start this topic necessarily to debate the reality of God and Christ. That is a debate that can never be settled and people, I believe, are just going to have to respect each other's individual beliefs. I started this thread to ask if there's anybody out there who feels the same way I do. That's not to say that I will never change my belief, I'm almost certain to someday, but is it possible to be an agnostic Christian? Faith in Christ, but still believe that there is no way anybody's going to fully comprehend what God wants of us, what we should follow, etc..?

Thoughts, opinions, yada yada yada.

I too feel there is a benevolent God in existence and that Jesus was a representative of this truely good and loving god despite the massive amount of evil in evidence on this planet.
I also believe a truely benevolent God would not create a place of eternal torture and pain such as Hell. That would be the action of an evil god.
There are many similarities between the Bible stories and much older stories because they have been reworked and modified and included in the Bible for various reasons by the writers.
One can consider themselves a Christian without having any connection with any church, religion or cult. The personal connection should be enough.
These are of course simply my personal opinions and thoughts.

I won't go into my beliefs about God and Jesus but I wanted to say that I think you are coming to your own personal belief system. I don't believe that organized religions cover 100% of the people's beliefs. That's why there's Unitarian Universalism and other 'inclusive' religions that accept a variety of belief systems.

I don't have a religion, but if I did, that would be it. My beliefs are unique to me. Even my husband and I believe differently on some things. I think spiritual beliefs are a very personal (meaning different from person to person) thing. I would hate to try to fit my beliefs into a pre-packaged religion, complete with all the beliefs, rules and thoughts. I believe our belief systems come from within, not without.

I thing you are experiencing the disclosure of your own personal belief system. And maybe it doesn't have a name, maybe it doesn't match someone else's exactly, maybe there's not a group who shares your beliefs, but I think that's ok.

Some people feel a need to meet once a week with like-minded people, or with people who will accept them and their beliefs without trying to change them into a preconceived and ordained set of beliefs. Some don't have that need.

Just in case you're interested: Find a UU Congregation Near You.

I believe in possibilities, so I certainly think that it's possible to believe and have faith in and follow Christ and his teachings, while believing it's impossible to know God. Striving to be Christ-like (whether he really existed or not) is certainly commendable.

Good luck to you in your journey. I think you're doing great.

I started this thread to ask if there's anybody out there who feels the same way I do.

You described my feelings for relgion a few months ago word for word. I was a catholic and then I started questioning first the church then my faith. I decided that whatever my beleifs it would have nothing to do with the church.

I was absolutely certain that the church was wrong and that it was put there for control. I wasn't certain that a god didn't exist. So I was agnostic at this point in time. Then I started questioning god and the supernatural. And from a catholic standpoint I was treading on very dangerous ground.

You would be suprised how ridiculous the concept of god seems to someone who has read about all the religions and acually opens their mind to the possibility that god doesn't exist. Most christians scold themselves for the thought even passing through their head. Most people probably know that there is a lot of undisputed evidence and just plain logic that can sway even their concrete faith.

But the church has an explaination for that too, Satan. The Church did well to cover all of its bases. Satan and hell are the perfect way for the church to stop the spread of the disease that is atheism and agnosticism. It ensures that if someone breaks from the church that it stops there, that they can't corrupt anyone else.

This is because they will simply beleive that this information was put here to test your faith and that the person telling them all this is a agent of satan. Try all you want, it is almost impossible to force someone out of religion by throwing cold hard facts at them.

Imagine if you were in a plane and someone on the plane told you to jump. He tells that if you jump you will not die. Would you jump? of course not, you would cling to what you have always been told, that if you jump from a plane you will die. There is no way to demonstrate that they will not die because they wont see you hit the ground.

The plane is symbolic of religion and jumping is symbolic of breaking from religion. The only way to break from relgion is to admit you were wrong and radically change everything you beleive in (the laws of physics) and jump (think the matrix). Not many people are willing to do so.

[edit on 21-5-2006 by daedalas]

There certainly are a great number of agnostic Christians in the world. It is entirely possible to do.

Good idea about the Unitarians - they accept all religions and have a large number of agnostic Christians in their membership.

I use to feel the same way you do, and I actually did become a Unitarian and am now becoming a Unitarian minister. Just don't give up being a spiritual person, whether or not you have a label to put on your beliefs. The label doesn't matter - just keep searching and you will find your path eventually.

I guess my formal label would probably be atheist, but I sometimes have thoughts about if there was a god. although the god that I conceive in nothing like the christian god. The god that I imagine is much kinder and tolerant.

I respect the need for religion and its ability to be a pure good thing at times. But that does not change the fact that it has inspired countless conflicts that have cause countless millions of lives. And the fact that I dont beleive in it. I am not sure that I could ever beleive in religion again.

Once you start think and looking at things on the atheistic level its hard to look at it any other way. but because of my respect for the right to religion, I think that Unitarian Unversalism is a great thing.

How does the church feel about their arch-enemy, the secular humanists, opening a universal church that rejects dogmas and creeds? This must be pretty tantalizing to christians and it must threaten the churches power. In which case you guys better watch out, remember the last group who threatened the churches power (the Templars)?

Hey guys,

Thanks for all of your replies. BH, I would definitely agree that I'm coming to some sort of personal religion of my own . As I said, I'm sure it will probably change with time as it already has, but this is where it stands as of now. I've heard a little bit about UU before... It sounds interesting to me, but I wonder what the church is like or what they discuss. Seeing as how the three largest religions in the world (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) all came from the same initial religion (Judaism), it would certainly make sense. And it's not necessarily that I believe people can't "know" God depending on what you mean by "know." I think people can have a sort of personal connection with God, but I definitely think that there is SO much knowlege out there, most of it probably way above human comprehension, that it's a far stretch to think that anybody knows exactly what God stands for. Thanks for the links, too. I might check that out .

I'm not really rejecting Christianity either. I think that protestantism/Christianity is still most definitely an option for me, but I have a lot to learn.

How does the church feel about their arch-enemy, the secular humanists, opening a universal church that rejects dogmas and creeds? This must be pretty tantalizing to christians and it must threaten the churches power. In which case you guys better watch out, remember the last group who threatened the churches power (the Templars)?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "The churches power." "The Church" hasn't had ruling power over people in a very long time. Yes, there are obviously a lot of people faithful in the church, but I definitely don't consider that a bad thing. And the Templars were most definitely not the last group to threaten the church . You've been watching (Or reading) too much Da Vinci Code!

You would be suprised how ridiculous the concept of god seems to someone who has read about all the religions and acually opens their mind to the possibility that god doesn't exist.

I'm not suprised . Tell me, have you taken any classes or just read about other religions on the internet, library, etc.? Not that I'm putting down independent research or anything, just curious. And I certainly know what you mean about the confines of faith, and how it's hard to make that initial "jump." While I've never "jumped" away from God or Christ, I've been slowly altering my beliefs and such based off of things I've learned, been taught, and pondered. I'm certain that I can't believe in Hell. I picture some peaceful old lady burning in Hell because she didn't choose to believe in God. God could have stopped it, but he didn't It's not logical, unless it's above our comprehension as people. Furtehrmore, it's hard for me to imagine a person being completely content knowing that good, just, and moral people are being tortured terribly for all eternity while they're up in heaven having a grand ol' time. I mean if I honestly thought of friends' families I've known, as well as my own, who have passed on being put through Hell for losing faith...I think I would go into deep depression and probably want to kill myself! But then I would be afraid I would go to Hell...

I use to feel the same way you do, and I actually did become a Unitarian and am now becoming a Unitarian minister.

Wow! You must have to know A LOT about A LOT of religions! Ever been to the Kabba?

- I do appreciate all of your replies and I hope you'll continue to contribute!

[edit on 22-5-2006 by Herman]

Herman, to answer your question there is a way to know. Please send U2U and we can discuss.

Also, if you're picking out religions that fit you, do you not see a problem with that? That would make you god (which you're not, sorry), not the other way around. Please be careful. Do not choose a religion, seek the truth. You've said you've believed in God, ask Him for help. He will. Christ did exist, he did die on the cross and come back from the dead to pay for the sins of those who believe. Notice how there's never any consistency to the opposition? Some say he didn't really come back from the grave, some say he didn't die, some day he didn't really exist, etc. Those who DO believe however, only know one account of the history.

[edit on 22-5-2006 by saint4God]

Originally posted by Herman
In the past few years, I've done a lot of thinking about/changing/contemplating my belief in God, his existence, and what he stands for. Originally, I was a Christian, and although I still have faith in Jesus Christ,
Carrying over from this thought, I as a person cannot accept Hell. To me, there is no way that a loving, all powerful, and all knowing God could ever let one of his creations go to a place of eternal torture when it is perfectly in his power to save them.

I guess I have a question first. Have you ever received Christ as your Savior? What I mean by that is, acknowledged the fact that you are a snnier in need of a Savior. You could have done this with someone else's help or by yourself with you and God alone. Then asked God/Christ to forgive you and be your Savior and Lord and meant it. I'll wait for your answer on this.


Also you mentioned that God wouldn't send anyone to hell when He has the power to save them. In that one sentence you have pretty much summed up what the Bible is about. You are overlooking the answer though. That's why Jesus came, He knew we couldn't save ourself so Jesus came and satisfied the wrath of God against sin. Through faith in what Jesus has done God did use His power to save. Those who go to hell now, choose to go because they have rejected Christ.

[edit on 22-5-2006 by dbrandt]

I don't think Herman is talking about "picking out religions that fit" an individual. I think this is really about finding what is in one's heart concerning spirituality. No one can tell me what will make me feel close to my creator. Certainly others tell me what they think will make me feel closer to my creator, but they truly don't know. That is between me and my God. Others only only know what works for them. Just as no one can tell me what my favorite colour should be or who I should fall in love with - because we are all different.

Herman, just find what is in your heart. The concepts of sin and hell, as you know, are not consistent - they are not even present in most religions. Remain patient with those who constantly push you to adopt their beliefs, they have their own paths and recruiting is an important part of their faith. It never hurts to listen, thank them and mean it, then find your own truth.

To answer your questions, no, I have never been to the Kabba.
Yes, one must know a considerable amount about a wide variety of religions, but even more important than that, one must respect other's right to chose their own paths. In my congregation there are Agnostic Christians, Buddhists, Pagans, Witches, Islamics, Jews, atheists, and those who simply call themselves Unitarians.

Good luck, I wish you the best.

Edit for spelling

[edit on 5/22/06 by wellwhatnow]

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
In my congregation there are Agnostic Christians, Buddhists, Pagans, Witches, Islamics, Jews, atheists, and those who simply call themselves Unitarians.

To say that no-one is wrong is to say that there is no right. In school, when the answer was incorrect, did not the teacher let you know so that you could arrive at the correct answer? The Christians in your group must have missed some important parts of the Bible that they believe in. If you love them and wish to strengthen their faith, please share with them:

Matt 12:15 "Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division."

Next question then is, what kind of division? Consider this parable:

Matthew 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him and he will separate the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
Then the King will say to those on his right 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheretance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creaton of the world..."

Matt 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devils and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me."

Okay okay, so there is a division...but can't we worship with Pagans? Let's see what Jesus says again:

Matt 6:7 "And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words"

Hm, pagans pray differently...
Do the Christians believe in Jesus and the words he spoke above?

How about:

2 Corinthians 6:14 "Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righeousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: 'I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.'
'Therefore come out from them and be separate. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you.' says the Lord. 'I will be a Father to you, and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty."

Don't get me wrong, I love all my brothers and sisters be they Wiccan, Atheist, Satanic, Agnostic, Buddist, etc. but per all the reasons, it looks like we're not to be in the same house of worship.

Help your fellow church members who are Christian to know what is written. I'd be interested in hearing what they have to say.

Originally posted by saint4God
To say that no-one is wrong is to say that there is no right.

Or that everyone is right. Some people's belief system (mine) states that 2 people can believe 2 different things and both be right.

Spirituality is a personal thing, so what's right for one may not be right for all.

Originally posted by saint4God

Matt 6:7 "And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words"

Hm, pagans pray differently...

Really, then do tell me a pagan prayer as an example.

Originally posted by saint4God
Don't get me wrong, I love all my brothers and sisters be they Wiccan, Atheist, Satanic, Agnostic, Buddist, etc. but per all the reasons, it looks like we're not to be in the same house of worship.

Okay, if I am not welcome then I won't come to your church.

Originally posted by saint4God
Help your fellow church members who are Christian to know what is written.

They know what is written in the Torah, the Quran, the Dama Pada, the Christian Bible, the Chosen Faith, and more.

Originally posted by saint4God
I'd be interested in hearing what they have to say.

Then come and ask them - you would be welcome in my church.

By the way, Thanks - I mean it.

Dear Herman,

Greetings...

I would like to share a thread with you that's posted in the dreams and personal predictions page. It is someone else's post but maybe my responses to that person will be of some help to you or to others here:

www.belowtopsecret.com...'

God Bless

Originally posted by saint4God
Herman, to answer your question there is a way to know. Please send U2U and we can discuss.

Also, if you're picking out religions that fit you, do you not see a problem with that? That would make you god (which you're not, sorry), not the other way around. Please be careful. Do not choose a religion, seek the truth. You've said you've believed in God, ask Him for help. He will. Christ did exist, he did die on the cross and come back from the dead to pay for the sins of those who believe. Notice how there's never any consistency to the opposition? Some say he didn't really come back from the grave, some say he didn't die, some day he didn't really exist, etc. Those who DO believe however, only know one account of the history.

[edit on 22-5-2006 by saint4God]

I have prayed for guidance, and I still do. I know I'm not God , and as wellwhatnow said, I'm not trying to pick and choose what fits me best. In fact, I don't like that mentality at all. Saying "I'll only believe this because I like it, but I can reject that because I hate it and want to do it..." just isn't faithful. But if you're going to literally follow everything in the bible, you've got a lot of work ahead of you. In fact, you better just live on a farm, don't wear certain fibers, and plant your crops in the right locations! What I would like to find is truth. The way history is so scrambled now, though, I doubt if that's even possible anymore.

dbrandt,

Yeah, I have acknowleged Jesus as my savior. I used to be sure of God and everything, but I sometimes wonder if that's just how I was raised. That could be one of the reasons I find it hard to let go of faith (Acknowleging Jesus), not that I want to or anything. It seems like the way I've changed my beliefs so much, my faith in Jesus would be gone too, but it's not. I am, however, questioning more. By that I mean that I'm not completely positive anymore... And I don't like that. I don't think people should trick themselves into believing something. I think it should be something you consciously find and know for sure.

Also you mentioned that God wouldn't send anyone to hell when He has the power to save them. In that one sentence you have pretty much summed up what the Bible is about. You are overlooking the answer though. That's why Jesus came, He knew we couldn't save ourself so Jesus came and satisfied the wrath of God against sin. Through faith in what Jesus has done God did use His power to save. Those who go to hell now, choose to go because they have rejected Christ.

But for some people, accepting Jesus isn't as easy as just "doing it." Some people have been raised Buddhist or Hindu or Muslim, and by the time they hear about Jesus, even if somebody tries to convert them, it's too late. I know there are verses about people ignorant of Christianity not going to Hell, and that makes sense, but what about the people who simply can't find it in them to believe? It's not a choice when you're not sure of your options, so do those people deserve to burn in Hell? I could understand if someone literally spat in God's face and said "I don't want to be with you", but when the answer is so ambiguous how can an innocent person possibly be blamed for not finding Christ. To me, it's like searching. People don't choose to reject Christ, they simply can't find him or lose him along the way.

posted by Benevolent HereticOr that everyone is right.

Some people's belief system (mine) states that 2 people can believe 2 different things and both be right.

Spirituality is a personal thing, so what's right for one may not be right for all.

That's one of my favorite things about Hinduism (Although I'm not a hindu.) They believe that everybody is eventually going to the same place (Moksha...not really a place but none-the-less.) no matter what path they follow - it'll just take longer for some people.

To say that no-one is wrong is to say that there is no right. In school, when the answer was incorrect, did not the teacher let you know so that you could arrive at the correct answer? The Christians in your group must have missed some important parts of the Bible that they believe in. If you love them and wish to strengthen their faith, please share with them:

In school, there was a definite answer that could be proven . In religion, there are multiple answers and nobody can say which one is right for sure. We can only guess and, depending on which religion is right, hope to God that we guessed correctly! On some tests, there is an "all of the above" option as well on some multiple choice tests.

Thanks again for all your replies! I really do appreciate it...it's helping me a lot and it's good to have a place where I can discuss these things.

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
Really, then do tell me a pagan prayer as an example.

Why would I do that? You should already know if they pray beside you, and it is Christ who says that they "babble on" thinking they'll be heard of their many words, not me. You have issue with the wrong person my friend.

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
Okay, if I am not welcome then I won't come to your church.

Who said that? All are welcome to come and worship God, who had one son, was crucified, raised from the dead to purchase a place in heaven for those who believe.

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
They know what is written in the Torah, the Quran, the Dama Pada, the Christian Bible, the Chosen Faith, and more.

And? I know what's written and the Torah, Quran, Tao Te Ching, the Bagavad Gita, etc., it does not mean I worship their gods.

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
Then come and ask them - you would be welcome in my church.

I would if it were within a reasonable driven distance because I want to know. I truly do.

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
By the way, Thanks - I mean it.

Glad I could help in some way. I'm not looking to criticize, only to point out some very key factors of what Christ says and faith in God as he taught it. I don't know why anyone who calls themselves Christian would not want to follow Christ. I do hope for the best for the church, that they may know and follow God's will and plan in all they do. I hope for the same for all who attend mine as well.

Originally posted by Herman
I have prayed for guidance, and I still do.

Great! He will answer. Do you believe this?

Originally posted by Herman
I know I'm not God

,

Excellent, you'd be surpised how few come know this even if their words say something different, their heart may fall into it.

Originally posted by Herman
But if you're going to literally follow everything in the bible, you've got a lot of work ahead of you.

Let me ask, do you think God supports or opposes work for growth?

Originally posted by Herman
In fact, you better just live on a farm, don't wear certain fibers, and plant your crops in the right locations!

Levitican law, very good. But, there have been a number of covenants from Old Testament to new. Each time, man broke them. This new covenant is one that cannot be broken because there is no reliance on our part to keep the promise. God kept a promise to us, to say that Christ died for our sins and whoever believes in him is saved from death eternal. That is the new promise. But, despite how easy it sounds "is that all I have to do? believe?" Yes, that's it. But, believe in your heart as words are only a projection, and it's not something that you "do", it's not an act "for it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this is not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, not by works so that no man may boast."

Originally posted by Herman
What I would like to find is truth. The way history is so scrambled now, though, I doubt if that's even possible anymore.

I don't think "finding" is what you need. Validating perhaps, but I think you've met with all the answers already. All we have to do is switch from blind faith to seeing faith. Thanks for the U2U, we'll get started right away.

Originally posted by Herman
Thanks again for all your replies! I really do appreciate it...it's helping me a lot and it's good to have a place where I can discuss these things.

Sure thing! Glad to be of any help if I was.

[edit on 23-5-2006 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
You should already know if they pray beside you, and it is Christ who says that they "babble on" thinking they'll be heard of their many words, not me.

I do know. Unitarians say "Service is our prayer." This means that if we want something to change we roll up our sleeves and get to work on it ourselves. People do not pray during a Sunday service in my church at all (unless they do so silently). There is no babbling, only working.

Originally posted by saint4God
All are welcome to come and worship God, who had one son, was crucified, raised from the dead to purchase a place in heaven for those who believe.

I don't believe. That's why I made the statement about not coming to your church, I truly feel I would not be welcome because I do not believe the same things you believe.

Originally posted by saint4God
I would if it were within a reasonable driven distance because I want to know. I truly do.

My church is in Fort Worth, TX - fjuuc.org...

Of course there are UU congregations all over the world. I believe someone already posted the link to "Find a UU Congregation Near You."

You surely must realise though that not everyone is going to think the same way you do or believe the same things you believe. People have a right to free will including the freedom to choose what they will worship and what they will believe. I do believe in Jesus (Joshua as I call him) but no more so than Siddhartha (Sid to me.) You and I are simply not going to be able to agree on such things.

Meanwhile, I wish Herman all the best on finding a path and a truth that is fulfilling and meaningful.

ag•nos•tic ( g-n s t k)
n.
1.
a. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
b. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.
2. One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.

adj.
1. Relating to or being an agnostic.
2. Doubtful or noncommittal: “Though I am agnostic on what terms to use, I have no doubt that human infants come with an enormous ‘acquisitiveness’ for discovering patterns” (William H. Calvin).

Chris•tian (kr s ch n)
adj.
1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings.
3. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
4. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
5. Showing a loving concern for others; humane.

n.
1. One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.
How can one be both agnostic and a Christian? Jesus said He was not only the Son of God, but the same as God. How can one be unsure of the existence of God, yet believe the teachings of Jesus if He said He was God?


[edit on 5/23/2006 by darkelf]

So, darkelf, you don't believe that Jesus and God are 2 different things? Do you believe that Jesus is the mortal manifestation of God and that they are one soul or spirit? When you say, "Jesus is Christ" does that mean the same thing as "God is Christ". Are they really the same being as your real name and your username are the same person?

Just curious.

I was taught that Jesus is the son of God, therefore while Jesus came to teach the work of God, he was not the same as God. I was taught he sits at the right hand side of God. So Jesus was the messenger of God...