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OP/ED: Cracks in the Facade

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posted on May, 10 2006 @ 12:44 PM
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Koji you are right it is not Bush that is ruining this country...it is the attitude of those who insist they and only they are right and only they know what is best for this country that have poisoned the political discourse here in America. Unlike Muaddib and others like him (who are the very people I was talking about in this post) I can see where my opinions and the opinions of others including other nations supporting my views could be wrong. But, for people like him it reads more like only the opinions that support what he already believes are correct. I have read tons of post here of his and nowhere does he even begin to question his own assumptions or consider the notion that they could have been wrong or that they cooked the books. I remember very clearly the lead up to this war and recall quite clearly how the media shuffled any news that questioned the whole notion of the war to the back page. I remember Bush belittling the inspectors and pressuring them to hurry up, all while claiming to back them. And I remember that the colilition of the willing were little more than the U.S., Britian and a handful of smaller countries, and most of them have pulled out already. But my post had far less to do with the war and more to do with Bushes character, which seems to be a compulsive liar. He even began his reign with a lie, claiming to rule from the middle when he has done no such thing. Muaddib and others like him seem incapable of considering others right to disagree, and need to attack those who do. Pity really, but no skin off my arse.




posted on May, 10 2006 @ 01:08 PM
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Excellent,

You have voted grover for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

I look forward to seeing these cold blooded killers get whats coming to them.
Hopefully they will be hung like Mussolini, anyway back to reality.



posted on May, 10 2006 @ 01:23 PM
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Great, another bush bashing moment here on ATS. And of course, the anti-bush ATS crowd strongly agrees.

I have come to expect no less. Us poor elitest white republicans are just going to have to deal with it the best we can.

Wait a minute, I thought the government wasn't run by bush? what happened to the shadow government who really runs things?


Blah, Blah, Blah. That should be the name of this thread.


And in the words of Captain James T. Kirk, "Khan, I'm laughing at the superior intelect!"



posted on May, 10 2006 @ 01:35 PM
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Does anybody else but me suspect that US government moles are infiltrating ATS?

I can't help but think that, I've wondered it time and again. It must be a thankless job, it must be tough to go against one's conscience for a government paycheck.

How many times does it take to get whacked on one's head with a 2x4 before the pain registers?
How many Bush regime deceptions does it take before Loyalty fades?
It amazes me.
They must be payed.

Now I understand how evil dictators rise to power, where before I wondered why they weren't stopped.



posted on May, 10 2006 @ 01:54 PM
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Originally posted by Toadmund
Does anybody else but me suspect that US government moles are infiltrating ATS?
................


Oh yeah sure....if people disagree with your biased opinion they must be U.S. government agents.....


You must be a Communist disguising as a peacenick so that more people accept the Communist agenda, right?..... i mean even the agendas that the left has, and pretty much everything they say in any speech they make comes directly from the Communist propaganda, so my guess is that everyone in here who disagrees with the Bush administration must be a Communist, whether they know it or not.....

BTW, how much are you getting paid?.....

[edit on 10-5-2006 by Muaddib]



posted on May, 10 2006 @ 02:08 PM
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Well; the commies don't pay much. So I have become a free agent spewing lefty lies as if they were truth.
Perhaps I should switch sides, get paid more and fight for the right?

Perhaps I should become an oil lobbyist, hmmmm, perhaps, YEAH, a corporate shill!

Global warming is a myth!
War is not profit motivated.
Bush cronies are not greedy!
The super rich have it tough!

So refreshing to fight the common pee-ons for a change, who says I'm a traitor to myself?

(Hmmm, no check yet)



posted on May, 10 2006 @ 02:11 PM
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Have you ever seriously examined your own biased opinions Muaddib or questioned their verity? I have and do so regularly and I understand my opinion is biased, but it is not carved in stone either. I would love conclusive proof that Bush did not lie his way into this war or that our troops have not bled and died in vain but to date that conlusive proof has not surfaced. But, there has been much that has surfaced that suggests that he did lie. I suppose in your worldview whoever claims that he did has an agenda or grudge to push. Sad.
You say repeatedly that more than one nation thought that Hussien had WMD. But, suppositions are not a good or valid reason to go to war. I suspect that my neighbor is armed to the teeth and a drug dealer and crazy to boot but that doesn't give me the right to invade his house and tear it down.



posted on May, 10 2006 @ 02:20 PM
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ATSNN is held to a higher standard, and as such, the topic, and only the topic is up for discussion. In this case, the topic is an Op/Ed piece regarding staunch George Bush supporters (in a broad and general way), not any particular ATS Member, or that particular member's agenda regarding... Anything, nor the possibiluity oif them being paid to post here, or to act in any other caqpacity other than an individual and unique member. Please confine the discussion to the topic only.

Thanks.



posted on May, 10 2006 @ 02:47 PM
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.
.
Grover: agree with you and would like to congratulate you on publishing such a well-reasoned, well-articulated post.

Hundreds, hopefully thousands will read it and silently nod in agreement. More people browse than post.

You haven't said anything most of us don't know and agree with. You have not stated anything that hasn't been clear to most for years. Yet you're being criticised. However, these are desperately lonely times for the Apologists for the Bush administration, so it's to be expected they would respond furiously and critically here; after all, 'here' is one of the few places they can continue to peddle their warmongering support !

The Bush adminstration is currently in orchestrated collapse (similar to the 9/11 towers), but they failed to warn their supporters that they would soon be packing their bags and moving on. So everything's in free-fall and those who vicariously enjoy the death of others are soon to be left deprived of their favourite bloodthirsty entertainment. And they're devastated ! They are in shock! They are FURIOUS, actually, with Bush, Rumsfeld and the rest of the gang, for selling them out ! They (the Warmonger Apologists) had settled in and pledged their continuing support for a series of wars they believed would last for AGES ! They've been having the time of their lives, jousting with decent folk about the legitimacy of the invasion and destruction of Iraq. Their Warmongering Heroes had even led them to believe the carnage would continue in Iran. So they'd ordered in all that pizza and popcorn ........ and now here they are, flatfooted in the face of the dismantling of the Bush regime. No-one told them, you see, that it was only temporary.

So I hope you take a certain satisfaction, Grover, in the yelps and whines of rage and pain uttered here by the War Supporters. Soon --- if their addiction for war and human blood gets beyond their control --- they'll have to put their OWN cowardly backsides out there on the street and be pounded to pulp. And we KNOW they're too gutless to try that. So it's the thought of having to go cold-turkey, blood-wise, that's causing them to rage against you here. And frankly, it's nice to hear their yelps and good to see them identify themselves, no ?

Yours is a great post ! Nice to know you're on the planet ! One of you is worth a thousand war-for-profit supporters !



posted on May, 10 2006 @ 04:42 PM
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Originally posted by grover
Just because Bush says the sky is yellow and the sun blue and Tony Blair agrees with him then they must be right huh Muaddib? Perhaps it is you that has a ploy of denying and attacking every criticism of Bush and turning it on its head. I used to think you were incredibly intelligent, even if I disagreed with you even after you repeatly questioned my intelligence, something I never did with you. Now I understand that you are just another right-wing hack. I stated further back that i wrote this essay in an attempt to articulate my outrage. Why can't you just get it through your head that some people disagree with Bush and his policies, and that is alright. If everybody thought the same, we would not be a democracy. 31% approval rating for Bush and 23% for congress...you've become a minority Muaddib...perhaps we should put you on the endangered species list.


muaddib
They can disagree, slander and say any thing they want to.
If you disagree with them, then they call you names, (right wing hack)
If you dare to state what you believe and that is in opposition to liberalism, then YOU ARE REPRESSING them, and you better quit or they will call you another name.



posted on May, 10 2006 @ 05:24 PM
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semperfortis


Good point. They swarm you like Bees. They don't like evil conservative capitalists. Pro-Bush. You must be an evil capitalist. You must be part of the "nwo,illumati,reptillian-and anything else they can think of conspiracy.

Meanwhile, in the real world - economy-strong, jobs available to those who want one, Housing-up, Mortgages-up. Oh no Mr. Bill, the price of gas is 3.00 a gallon.

It's those evil big-oil Bush people. They don't want us to drive our big SUV's put out by those evil capitalist car companies - who are conspiring with Big Oil - and Bush has Oil stocks - he's an oil man , Cheney is an Oil man. They are Evil. They are responsible for your lot in life.

I thank god for the conservative radio stations. At least we get to hear the "right" side of the story.

Oh, By-the-way the evil Bush - his ranch in texas is run by solar energy. He also puts around in a hybrid vehicle on the property.

But, don't let that fool you.....he is evil and he owns oil stocks. he is big oil.

THE SARCASM IS TOTALLY INTENTIONAL.

The original poster pulled a page right out of the hillary-rotten-clinton handbook.

Yeah, blah, blah, blah, whine about how, "if we don't agree with this administration, we are not patriotic".

Who said this on the conservative side? I can't remember. But, I do remember her screaming this at the top of her lungs. God what a joke.

And of course he is going to get the way above top secret award(whatever that is).

Be careful what you step in. If it looks like crud, and smells like crud, it probably is crud.

Oh, Crud is meant to be the real word. But, the moderators don't want profanity on this site. Give me another break. If this isn't censorship I don't know what is.

Now, Sit back and watch the vultures attack. Good thing I wear boots.



posted on May, 10 2006 @ 05:39 PM
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Grover

Political blindness is the condition in which due to political ideologies and believe we become the enemy if we dare to criticize the present administration.

When political blindness attacks a person they lose the ability to differentiate between rights or wrongs as long as is their political leaders the one in power.

It does affects loyal followers of both parties.

But because is the Republican Party and Bush the president this will affect the group of people that are the most loyal to the party now in power.

Political blindness tend to render their victims unable to understand their rights under the constitution and to question any body that dares to remind them that they do have those rights.

Political leaders feed on the loyalist for support especially when they are trying to undermine the constitution in the pursue of personal agendas.

The political blind loyalist, are the first to step in and call you Liberal when you disagree with the object of their obsession that means the president.

The political blind loyalist will argue with you now tagged liberal regardless of the issue at hand if is true or not.

Been a conservative in our nation this days to a political blind loyalist means to be a blind follower to Bush, and if you don’t and disagree with anything the political party and leaders in power do you are an enemy and can not be in God eyes and a loyalist eyes a true conservative.

So good threads like this one will become a sacrilege and anybody that agree with it and post it will become a basher, liberal and the enemy.



posted on May, 10 2006 @ 05:42 PM
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Originally posted by grover

I would love conclusive proof that Bush did not lie his way into this war or that our troops have not bled and died in vain but to date that conlusive proof has not surfaced.



Bush didn't lie his way into this war.

He didn't need to.

Saddam actually resumed hostilities when he kicked out the UN arms inspectors. He had agreed to both no-fly zones as well as weapons inspectors as the terms of his surrender in 1991.

Kicking out the arms inspection and IAEA put him back on a war footing with the 22 nations of the 1991 coalition.

It has to do with the definition of surrender, not with any words from W.

Now, Bush and company are a bunch of weak sisters for not being honest about the Casus belli. Instead, they tried to "prove that Saddam is a threat;" when the truth is, the level of threat was meaningless compared to his violation of the surrender terms.

But, Bush & etc. thought all that was too complicated. Folks like Powell at the UN said they could "almost prove it" before the war even started.

But the fact remains, however poorly 'splained, that Bush didn't "lie his way into a war."

Did Clinton lie when he launched rockets at Saddam for violationg the same surrender treaty? Or is it only immoral when a Republican enforces international treaties? Or is it only immoral to do something effectual?

Or maybe it's the case that everyone who disagrees with you must be a liar?


.



posted on May, 10 2006 @ 05:58 PM
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The truth hurts and will always hurt when people are proven wrong. I really havent seen any threads here saying "Told ya so" and Its your fault cause you voted for Bush, and whats the matter, you must be mental if you like Bush.
That would be "most" inapropriate.

The truth is that I, along with most on ATS, have called it and seen the truth since early on- While a select few will not, do not want , and absolutely REFUSE to see the truth of this government, and the blatant lies dished out every day. They will come here and quote passages from God knows what and where, excuse every lie and justify every move made by this administration.

They are apologizing in circles.....up and down, left and right, side to side, on and on- going to Military websites
(You know who you are)- getting all the appropriate wording just so......hanging on to that last ditch effort to try to convince us Bush is a benevolent character.


Nice try. You may write better than me, but i have more common sense than you and i do not have to resort to going to military-right winged, warmongering websites to convince you of anything. You might say i have common horse sense and so do most people here. It doesnt take a genious or a good writter to figure out how screwed up this country has become under one man.


[edit on 10-5-2006 by dgtempe]



posted on May, 10 2006 @ 06:15 PM
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Sorry strangecraft but you are wrong...it is a myth that Hussien kicked out the weapons inspectors...they were advised to leave by the Clinton administration just before he bombed baghdad for shooting at American planes in the no fly zone. And as for that while I am not defending him because Hussien is indefensible, the fact remains if all things were equal except that America was divided into no fly zones by a vanquishing enemy, wouldn't Bush be negligent in doing his job if he didn't try to reassert American soverignity over those areas. Even a staunch Bushwhacker like myself would say yes.



posted on May, 10 2006 @ 06:45 PM
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Semperfortis,

See, that didn't take long. The vultures swarmed in like a piece of roadkill.

Oh, its those evil bush people....those evil capitalists....those evil conservatives. And they'll continue to spew their hate, "bush lied" "he's out for profits". He'e in the pockets of big oil....

You were wright. name calling, "you must be mental" and now a new one, "political blind loyalists". and now conservatives label them as "liberals". (By the way - the classic liberal answer to anything..."the old names aren't working so lets make up a new one...."Yeah...Political Blind Loyalist....Yeah...that sounds good...I like it.....

Maybe we should take a look at some of the economic indicators;

online.wsj.com...

Oh but wait, there put out by the evil bush administration......Backed by the Evil capitalists at the department of commerce......These figures must be lies...... Oh, "Bush Lied". Carl Rove must be behind the lies......Rumsfeld must be behind the lies.....The 3 1/2 million votes were lies.....All manipulated by the evil bush people.....Cheney...he lied...he's covering up something....

All lies by the Evil Bush people.....and those conservative political blind loyalists.....all liers......

No, only those here at ATS must be right....After all, they are on the side of good...only they stand up for the sheeple...Only they can bring America back from the brink of disaster.....Because they know the truth....Bush lied.....Rice she lied......Powell...he's a good guy because he quit the evil Bush party.....


Semperfortis, What do you think is next?



posted on May, 10 2006 @ 10:16 PM
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Originally posted by dgtempe

The truth is that I, along with most on ATS, have called it and seen the truth since early on-



Yeah, especially if by "early on," you mean "the instant a non-Democrat was elected." That pretty much sums up the majority attitude of the geniouses at ATS all right. No argument there.


Originally posted by dgtempe
You might say i have common horse sense and so do most people here. It doesnt take a genious or a good writter to figure out how screwed up this country has become under one man.



Oh right, whereas everything before 2000 was completely fine, which is how Bush and the republicans ended up in charge in the first place.

The truth is, when a non-liberal tries to post an op-ed piece in ATS, it's trashed instantly. Why isn't this whole thread in the PTS forum? Because the liberal view is more and more the "party line" here.

And yet you're horrified if anyone has the temerity to actually DISCUSS or QUESTION the stuff in this "op/ed piece."

You can't have it both ways, ya know. You cannot pretend to defend your own ideas simply by calling other people names, Dgtempe. And yet that's the substance of your rebuttal---that someone else writes better than you do.

impressive.

.



posted on May, 11 2006 @ 12:03 AM
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I, for one, do not have a problem with people discussing the issues of this post. What I do have a problem with is when people with no other legs to stand on resort to branding others who agree with this post as being part of the "Bush Bashers".

Is it that much of a problem to simply refute what grover said without "liberal", "bush bashers" or anything else derogatory? How hard is it really?

Is that, what marg rightly attested to, a symptom of the "political blindness" that is coming across your mind?

Or is it just hitting too close for home to realize the fact that it is too late to save the POTUS now from all the corruption and wrongdoing that has been done in his name during this administration?

If you have that much of a problem, write your own op/ed piece and point out why Bush deserves to be respected instead of complaining about the "Bush Bashers".

I'm sure the evidence is out there to help pad Bush's credibility. But not much proof.

Or, are you afraid of what you might find as you sink lower into your "political blindness"?



posted on May, 11 2006 @ 01:43 AM
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Grover I do not know who these mythical people are that believe these things you think. Yes I am a Bush supporter, voted for him twice in fact. No I don't think Jesus would endorse either party, I rather suspect that if Jesus returned to Earth there would be no need for political parties. I don't agree with your assertion that Bush's administration has been disasterous, in point of fact I think hes done a preetty good job on most things that count. The economy is running like a finely tuned machine, he has gotten more appointees confirmed to the judiciary than any president in recent history, he has funded stem cell research, passed some landmark legislation, created a new vision for future space travel, deposed a terrorist regime in afghanistan and ousted another which recent documents show was training over 7000 terrorists a year, was planning a massisive suicide bombing operation against the west and who we to our great shame had once supported as the lesser of two evils. True he has made some decisions I have disagreed with vehemently, but at the end of the day America is strong, her people are free to do as they wish, and the war against murdering barbarians is being fought thousands of miles away rather than in the streets of our cities.
I understand that you may dislike the presidents policies and even his person, what I don't understand is the fervor of your hatred. The passion with which you seem to despise this him is at the end of the day, far more venomous to you that it ever will be to him. No politician is either perfectly good or perfectly evil, and Bush is no More the Anti-Christ today than Clinton was in the 90's.
Hate is never empowering, no matter how much it may sometimes seem to be.



posted on May, 11 2006 @ 07:34 AM
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What is meant is early on, as in the first STOLEN ELECTION. Then the second, then just when we thought no more could go wrong, Bingo!!!
At least, that is the case for me.



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