This is not a question of capitalist/socialist. No matter what ideology you follow, at the end of the day you need to mortgage your loans. This can only work if the budget is running a surplus.

The econ 101 in this case is that the US government is trying to make people invest and consume more. The stimulant is lower taxes so people have more money to spend. Since the current administration does not cut back on its spending, this policy can be viewed as a government subsidy to the citizens (and if this is not socialism, what is?).

The problem is that this creates a budget deficit, which in turn means that you are spending more money than you actually have. The upside to all this is that it might create (or preserve) jobs, which means a larger tax base. The larger tax base is then supposed to be able to sustain a budget surplus and repay the loans.

If you never reach this level, there is another agenda behind running a debt policy. Most often, a typical reason is to be able to remain in office by lowering the taxes for a particular focus group. Also, campaign funds are big factor when deciding the policies of a government.

So, the big question is:
Who benefits from these lower taxes?

I did grow up in the Bronx - want I should "troe is some fuks & sonna mybitches" in there?

Never A Socialist vs. Capitalist argument, sorry I didn't get you to see that.

You've taught nothing, but that an articulated tax cut cultist argument....is still a cultist screed at presentations end. Else, you never would have brought up a polar extreme like socialism in the discussion of US taxation.

Besides, yergen has been doing the schoolin'....great post!

Yeah, great job to the both of you. Hope you get your wish.

Hmmm, Astro I don't know where you studied economics, but the fact of the matter is that these two ideologies are primarily concerned with ownership of the means of production. This is what defines them, if anything.

If you extrapolate the two, you would have a capitalist society with only private ownership, and a socialistic society with only public ownership.

Furthermore, neither system really needs taxes, since capitalism doesn't require anything controlled by the government, and in socialistic states the government already owns everything so it would be like taxing themselves.

BUT, if you are interested in freedom of speech and such, you need to have a form of government that allows equal opportunity. The best way we know of today is to divide the power into three branches: legislative (congress), executive (presidency) and the supreme court, which applies the laws and decrees from the other branches.

These branches need to be maintained independent and that costs a lot of money. Who is going to pay for this if you don't have any taxes? Also, if you cannot determine ownership by laws and regulations in an independent institution, the system of capitalism would crumble and fall into anarchy.

Oh, thanks for the enlightenment. I guess where I studied economics had it all wrong then. Did I once ever say that we needed to eliminate taxes? My whole basis of argument is this. In an economic downturn,..of a capitalist society, (you know the definition of that don't you?) OVERTAXING is not the way to stimulate growth. Now, in a socialistic economy, we see the exact inverse.


Ah, ya know what..? Just forget it, I've been through this crap over a dozen times on here. You're just going to come back with something 180 degrees off topic to sway attention from the core argument. You know why? Because economics is one thing and politics is another and both you and BoutTime are only interested in the later. In that end, niether will discuss pure theories which do not support you politics.

It must be a damn cryin' shame to now be in a position to hope the American economy doesn't rebound for no more a reason than political gain of people niether of you probably know who could care less if your here or not. If our government was operated on a shoestring budget, I could even see no cuts but 128 trillion friggin dollars for 10 years is hardly that. there is waste and it must be cut.

Look, I'm registered as Democrat, but if it takes another couple years of this to get us back in, its not worth it. We should every damn one be doing everything we can and pulling for this downturn to end. Instead, we find people willing to sabatoge growth to get us back in. Look, no one's fooled here. The best thing we can do is realize that tax cuts are needed to spur growth and make sure the right people get them..the people that pay them..the people that risk it all to suceed only to be punished for success once they achieve it.

Well, I guess they had it all wrong, because what I'm trying to tell you is that capitalism and socialism are two political ideologies, which imply different views on who should own what. Neither system is defined by its view on taxes.

If you study macro economics you never really talk of either political system. Rather, you discuss cause and effect in national and international economies. For example, how does the interest rate affect the stock market or how should a government act in order to help markets clear etc.

Since economic theory claims to follow the principles of academic standards, when postulating theorems and such, it doesn't take a stand from a political point of view. It merely tries to prove its theories objectively and according to scientific standards.

Now, in order to prove my point I ask you to study some economic history, to be more specific J.M.Keynes. This man put forward theories that dominated the economic policies of most western world countries from after the depression in the thirties up until the eighties. He claimed that one should save (or not spend the surplus) during good times in order to be able to spend during bad times, without ending up with a huge national debt.

A plethora of so called capitalist countries followed these principles until they became outdated. So did a lot of socialist countries. In practice, taxes remained constant or were raised during good times to prevent the economy from being overheated and to be able to afford lower taxes, to stimulate an economy in recession or depression. Now, since both ideologies used this policy of taxation according to the state of the economy, you can't really claim that taxes are what defines a political system.

Therefore I need to repeat myself in saying:

What defines these political systems is their view on ownership of the means of production.

Even stronger proof of this is to ask yourself what good are taxes in socialist state. If the government owns all businesses, they get the profits (if any )anyway, so for them to tax this profit would only cause them more work to get what's coming to them anyway.

Therefore, one can conclude that the capitalist system is more dependent on taxes than a socialist one.

Now if you read my earlier posts in this thread one more time, astrocreep, you would hopefully notice that I do not advocate increased taxes. I am merely saying that it is worrying to see a budget deficit so large, and so little concern about the consequences of it. Eventually you have to balance the budget. This is even more important today, with a depreciating dollar.

Since you have studied economics you ought to know what happens otherwise. That is why I'd like to see some real arguments from you, rather than just claiming that the US is a capitalist country and therefore should have low taxes.

I’m at a loss on several things, Astro.
First, why are you personalizing this discussion? And most importantly, why do you expect me to come over to your point when you’re wrong on the core argument? Lastly, where do you think my true interest sits, being a business owner, to see further continuance of this mismanaged poor economy or to cheer a rebound that will get my earnings up the tens of thousands they’ve dropped under Bush?
To take your point of being overtaxed, I’m guessing you mean overall taxes, not Federal solely?
Stimulate the economy by adding jobs to the economy. Consumer spending goes way up, capital expenditures go way up because of product need, inventories get depleted causing a manufacturing boom and you’re left with a bigger tax base, a robust economy and …life is good.
3 Millions jobs have been lost applying this version of tax cut economics. Not calling it ‘Bush’, but economics, to make that clear. The consecutive tax cuts, of the form this economic theory has pushed & is set to do again, has fueled a $500 Billion deficit.

From Dr.Krugman: “Job growth from the Clinton administration was about 225,000 jobs a month. Mr. Clinton presided over the creation of 11 million jobs during each of his two terms.) Or maybe Osama bin Laden did it. But surely there must be a statute of limitations on these excuses. By the time of the election, Mr. Bush will have had almost four years to deal with the legacy of the technology bubble, and more than three years to deal with the economic fallout from 9/11. And Congress has given him everything he has wanted in terms of economic policy, even though that has led to a frightening explosion in federal debt: in the current fiscal year the Bush tax cuts will account for almost $300 billion of a deficit expected to top $500 billion. (If that $300 billion had been used to employ workers directly — a new W.P.A., anyone? — it would have created six million jobs.)”

Honestly Astro, it’s simple stuff, but if economics for the whole is driven by the benefit for the few, we have this mess. No one rich is suffering any penalty for their success, neither is anyone in my tax bracket.
As for the tax cut cultism as being echoed in your posts, Thomas Paine wrote, “a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom.” Tax cuts are great, just not the way & to whom they’ve been applied in this system by this administration.
And it’s offensive to assume your economics erudition is above others, simply because you fail to see the argument clearly & the facts you’re presented with.

A note and a question:

The economic ramifications of governmental actions are not apparent until seven or eight years have passed. (Wish I could quote you a source for this - Sorry - lousy memory) Clinton benefited from the Reagan/Bush(41) policies. Bush(43) now faces the arguably disasterous results of Clinton's actions. Tax cuts do work but one must wait before judging the result - it's not instantaneous.

Question: Why do corporations pay taxes at all? They are not persons, they are legal entities. Those taxes merely reduce workers wages, benefits, and job security. The cost of the taxes is passed on to the consumer or end user of the company's product. Tax the product not the producer. That way only the user pays tax and only if he chooses to buy.

on this issue but I'm afraid you are wasting the efforts on deaf ears. Ears that have bought into the cultism you so deftly explained.

This is really about a civil war of sorts, a class war between the top 2% elitist that these dittoheads worship so and the rest of us who fall into the shrinking middle class and the working poor.

We hear them harp endlessly on the $$$$'s wasted on welfare and unemployment, yet the dollars spent for such "socialist" spending amounted to less than 1-1 millionth of the overall amount spent on the US military budget and the wars-for-oilwells going on in the middleeast as we debate these issues.

I also agree that spending on silly studies about cowfarts and ketchup should be deleted, that money to foriegn nations should be stopped and instead invested in the rebuilding of the US's infrastructure and schools.

As for welfare it should be controlled and only spent to improve the lives of the children who we will someday depend on to continue our great nation.

As for the unemployment benefits I've watched as the benefits have expired after 6-8 weeks, long before the person could find any kind of job to replace his/her job that this administration has allowed employers to send off shore and give them a bloody tax break for doing so!!! OVER 3 MILLION MANUFACTURING JOBS LOST IN LESS THAN 3 YEARS!! THAT IS A TRAVESTY!! AND THATS ONLY FROM ONE CAREER SECTOR, WE DON'T KNOW HOW MANY HAVE BEEN LOST OVERALL BECAUSE SHRUB AND HIS MOB OF GOP CRIMINALS HAVE CHANGED HOW AND WHAT IS REPORTED AS A LOST JOB!!!

WHY ARE YOU ALL SO WILLING TO LET THIS BASTARD DESTROY THE GREATEST NATION ON THIS PLANET AND STILL DEFEND EVERY FRIGGIN' DUMBASS MOVE HE MAKES AS THE BEST THING FOR AMERICA????

YOU ALL CALL SHRUB & COMPANY PATRIOTS BUT WHEN THIS SAME FAMILY WAS ATTEMPTING THESE SAME EFFORTS AGAINST OUR NATION IN THE 1930's PRESIDENT ROOSEVELT HAD THEM ALL ARRESTED AND TRIED FOR TREASON AND CONSPIRING TO AID THE ENEMY!!!


TAKE BACK AMERICA FROM THESE CROOKED BUNCH OF MONEY GRUBBERS!!! STAND UP FOR YOUR COUNTRY AND OUR PEOPLE!!! STOP THIS NONSENSE NOW!!!!!!!

DR.DEAN FOR PRESIDENT IN 2004

Im not even talking about economic growth here, in my post.

Im talking that until the govornment learns how to handle its finances wisely without blowing and pissing it away, how to properly manage thier wealth, they dont deserve another goddamn penny from me or anyone else. They need to be cut the # off, period.

My tax dollars should be spent:

1. On paying off the national debt, first and foremost
2. On revamping the military, making it more efficent, more organized, beter improvements. And this means stop buying all these tech toys like mad and start investing in the people of the armed forces
3. On research into new fuel sources, new ebergy, how to kmake America less dependant on foreign energy, and more sefl suffiecient. Also, research into various medical ailments, space exploration, ect, the pursuit of science.

What I am sick of seeing my tax dolalrs wasted on:

1. 80,00 dolalr toilet seats and other ridiculous wastes
2. Social programs like welfare, educational or propoganda programs, thinsg of that nature. Social engineering
3. Aid to foreign countries. Tired of the #
4. Congressional payraises
5. Creation of new Buerocracies

We dont need a tax raise or cut, with what we pay in taxes, is MORE than suffiecent for them to take care of all of the above if they learn to cut where its pointless, and redirtect that money where it matters, they have more than enough to take care of pur problems with wise money management.

Until they figure out how to take care of it, though, I will fight against any tax increase what so ever. Cut the suckers off!

Fact: Less than 4 cents of every tax dollar go to all "social services" in this country.
Fact: Almost 47 cents of every tax dollar go to our bloated and dangerous military.
Fact: We outspend the next 16 countries in military spending put together.
Fact: Corporate welfare accounts for the next largest chunk 27 cents of every tax dollar.
In fact, corporate welfare increases have eclipsed social welfare increases over the last 20 years by 800%. Thats right...800%
And what have all these huge tax-receiving business done with that money and Bush's tax cut??? It didn't go into creating more jobs domestically. It did help to make the richest 1% in this country richer than the bottom 99% put together.
It helped those "American" corporations downsize and outsource American jobs overseas at RECORD pace...while they took your money, so the executives could make THAT LITTLE BIT MORE!!!
Im so tired of this ignorant red-neck s**t, talking about "Nobody's going to take nuthin off my plate...lazy welfare b**stards. They don't want to work..they just want the bread from my mouth."
If that isn't the most ignorant, retarded rhetoric I have ever heard. 4 Cents you j**ckasses!!! 4Cents!!!
Me, Im willing to double that to 8 cents if it helped somebody get something warm to eat...or help a single mom gets some pampers..or help a kid get into the YMCA.
ITS THE F**KING CHRISTIAN THING TO DO!!! Christian, you know, the principles I keep hearing this country was founded on! Boy, we sure want those TEN commandments in everyone's face, and we have to keep those filthy homosexuals from marrying but "share a little something from my plate?" H**L NO!
Thats mine, I worked for it and no lazy-ignorant-out-of-wedlock-n*gger-mother is going lay around all day poppin out kids, watching TV, eating bon bons, smokin crack and stealing my money!!!
You're so f**ckin stupid I want to puke.... the brainwashing from the machine has outdone itself if you guys really buy that garbage....pathetic.
WAKE UP!!!! WAKE UP!!! WAKE UP!!!
We are at war with the shepards not the other sheep.


Everything is permissable