The Super Hornet guns down the F-22 Raptor

www.alert5.com...

This gun kill picture is from the HUD recorder of a VFA-11 Super Hornet taken during a Red Air exercise. The black box on the top left is an event marker to show that the trigger was squeezed.

This raises questions on the F-22's dogfighting abilities. If an F/A-18 can get a great lock on the Raptor like that, then how would the Raptor face the likes of the latest thrust vectored flankers, which are much more suited to dogfighting than the F/A-18's if the Flankers manage the transition from BVR to WVR ?

[edited to attribute opening statement -nygdan]

[edit on 20-4-2006 by Nygdan]

Where did this pictures come from? Is there a link you can add, please?

I read the HUD, as the guns are switched off?

[edit on 10-4-2006 by SpittinCobra]

No, I don't think it does. You cannot draw conclusions from an isolated occurrence. A pair of RN Sea Harriers once defeated a pair of USN F-14's on excercise, did that make the Sea Harrier the better fighter or the F-14 useless? Of course not. There is no rule that states that the superior aircraft HAS to win every single time, if this was a genuine combat engagement the F-18 would most likely have been splashed before it even knew the F-22 was there. I accept that was not the point of the post, but just because the Hornet has gun lock there actually proves nothing. Noe if figures were released that said the F-18 won 50% of a set number of WVR engagements there would be cause to worry, once is nothing.

[edit on 10-4-2006 by waynos]

Uh oh. I think maybe the Air Force is relying on Beyond Visual Range weapons platforms vs. Actuall agile close in dog fighters.

Interesting picture but that was likely a staged dogfight IMO. Meaning that the F-22 wasnt allowed to engage BVR. The raptor is mainly designed to draw first blood (first look, first shoot) not to be a dogfighter.

In BVR test the Raptor was able to engage multiple fighters with first strike. The US believes Dog fights arent obsolete yet though and thats clear from the even the F-22 design (Gun, Thrust vectoring etc.)

The F-22 is more designed as a stealth fighter, its not the most agile fighter in the world. For instance the Su-37 Sukhoi could seriously outmaneuver a Raptor.

The Raptor's primary advantage is basically its stealth abilities, which practically no other air superiority fight has. It carries its missiles inside for that reason.

We'd need to know the actual engagement conditions to say.

It could have been a 4 on 1...


To be honest, I don't see the bug outmanouvering the raptor in a 1 on 1 unless the F-22 pilot screwed up... big time.

Based on the way the aircraft is viewed, is the F-22 look like its about to pass under the F-18? And the F-18 was pointing downward to turn.

You're all over-debating this issue, its nothing to do with the Raptors optimum operational parameters or anything, its one single instance that proves nothing. Does anybody seriously expect the Raptor to be impossible to ever be defeated in a WVR engagement? Anyone who does is being very unrealistic.

Good point waynos. Im sure alot has to do with the pilots as well in a WVR Dogfight. I would put money on a more skilled pilot in a dogfight even if he had a less advanced plane.

This is a meaningless event, true or not.

The F-22 shot down 4 F-15's before the F-15's even knew it was there. They mixed it up over and over again using different pilots and the same result. They said they didnt even see it once, and they were looking for it.

BUT, thats BVR, exactly where the Raptor was designed to excel. Its not so unreasonable to believe that in a visual range dogfight the plane is able to be shot down.

But the bottom line is, is that F-18 most likely would never have gotten that close in a real world situation.

My opinion of the F-22 is unchanged, even if this instance is true.

[edit on 10-4-2006 by skippytjc]

Originally posted by skippytjc
But the bottom line is, is that F-18 most likely would never have gotten that close in a real world situation.

I'm not so sure its as clear as that.


Been trying to do some research on BVR vs WVR kills to date, I had read some time ago a research piece by the USAF strongly disagreeing with the strong emphasis on BVR combat, as the data just didn't back up the doctrine. But damned if I can find the thing again


Has anyone here read the same paper? Or got stats on it?

Very nice pic, nice find

But how can you tell from the HUD that it's the superbug and not another F22?

He bled a lot of speed trying to get at the F22. It's down to about 180 knots. The F22 is very close and must be passing by very quick, so if he had screwed up that chance and missed the shot, he'd be at a worse position with his low speed, and the F22 just came out of a vertical loop too (apparently) so he might have the energy advantage. My point is he took a big risk trying to get that kill, if it hits he wins if he misses he's significantly disadvantaged.

[edit on 10-4-2006 by Taishyou]

I too would like a link, sorry but I don't trust photos that appear out of nowhere, these images are uploaded so where did you get them from?

My plane does it... Ok, so maybe it's a bit over done... but still... the F/A-18 (Super) is capable of defeating a Raptor... Go Hornet Go Hornet...

Since you guys are particular on links, well here they are :

pic1
pic2

These pics are now all over the internet. A simple Google Search will get you to them and will also put up numerous discussion boards talking about it.

I'll quote this from elsewhere :

Here's the enlarged Picture. The Red circle shows the altitude of 15,090ft. the Hornet is currently pointing down at ~30 degress as the yellow circles on the elevation ladder show. It's also banking right as it's dropping the nose to pull around on the Raptor's tail. Opposite to Altitude indicator is the airspeed indicator (I didn't circle it since it is right on top of the Raptor). Note that it shows how slow the Hornet is going- 183Kts. From the angle the Raptor is flying at it looks like he's decending almost vertically.

Someone else asked if the blacked out square on the top left was the G meter. It's not. The G meter is circled in Brown on the lower left. The top number is the current G, while the number below is the max G during the flight. As you can see, it's already at 7.6, so this wasn't just a cruise.



The black box on the top left is a marker to show that the trigger was squeezed.

For comments on this picture by a Hornet, an ex-Tomcat and a Strike Eagle go here >> Read Comments (pretty heated debate USN v/s USAF)

[edit on 10/4/06 by Stealth Spy]

The post shows nothing. Give the right pilot a P-51 and some height, and they could get the F-22 in its sights. Any fighter can take down any other fighter in the right situation. If I were to guess, I'd suspect that these two planes were not engaged with each other, or the Hornet pilot is better than the raptor pilot.

In a lot of cases, it's the man, not the machine.

None of those sites offer any information about the engagement rules, it could have been a 5 Vs. 1 WVR fight for all we know and this remaining F/A-18 got his apparent “kill” after the Raptor killed his buddies. I don't think any definitive conclusions can be drawn about the Raptors WVR performance from two HUD frames and no supporting information. Also, this brings up another question how did these apparently real HUD frames get on the net? Security violation anyone?

Originally posted by Stealth Spy

For comments on this picture by a Hornet, an ex-Tomcat and a Strike Eagle go here >> Read Comments

[edit on 10/4/06 by Stealth Spy]

He he he... and I thought the F-15 vs Su-27 threads were bad!!!


I know how to down a B-2... tell some Navy guys the Air force said their dinky little hornets could never get a Spirit

Well, I suppose a "healthy" rivalry keeps the troops on their toes.

IIRC there has been less than 20 BVR kills since vietnam