Jesus Papers

I have heard all kinds of various theories about the death of Jesus.
does anyone even know if he existed? really? The stories vary so widely about him, even if he is real, in the end you take away the reality you want to know to help you grow.

Gods Peace

dalen

Originally posted by Boatphone
and it has worked out very well...see?

Yeah but thats assuming that he was thining 'hmm, in 2,000 years, it'd be great if people like jerry fallwell beleived in me and people used me as a political tool', but, honestly, how many 1st century cult-messiahs were thinking about that? And, agian, wouldn't his story be all the better if he actually did come back, people would flip, and then he can just say, 'i will return again'. And all the apostles, they just kept the lid on it, and died, for a guy that they knew wasn't really dead, and was hanging out in a house in judea?

Ok... to all the doctors and experts in drugs i see here ..tell me .. when exactly was this "drug" given to Jesus ?
and of course ..how does anyone survive EVERYTHING the man wnet through...

do ppl even think anymore ? or they just buy and swallow every crap that comes up in the market ?

If Jesus survived and had children it would be in the RCC best intterest to say so, so they can claim even lowder they are the chosen church of God.

Why hyde something that will make you BILLIONS ???

I always thought that Jesus did appear to people after he died. Isn't that what the resurrections all about? I'm confused as to what you're asking I guess.

Originally posted by Griff
I always thought that Jesus did appear to people after he died. Isn't that what the resurrections all about? I'm confused as to what you're asking I guess.

a resurection is a "paranormal" incident... he died, and than he came back to life (according to the Bible) and was taken to Heaven...he didnt stick around having children with Mary Magdalen...

Funny thing is...before this book came out the big thing was the "da vinci Code"... before the Davinci code the big thing was "Jesus never exhisted"... every year a new flavor of the season shows up... the only thing that changes is the pooh...the flys are the same.

Big fancy fat books, based on documnets that were never seen, but were heard of ...reminds me of highschool.

" is Tracy really a slut? " " I heard she is."

Has anyone here started reading the book? That might help the conversation.

I am hoping to buy it soon but I must finish "Talisman" first...I did really love "Holy Blood, Holy Grail", and have read it a few times.

-- Boat

BN, these ideas aren't actually new. They're just not so accessible to the public. Notice that the davinci code was basically a rip off of HB/HG (indeed, maybe a literal rip off), written by the same authors as this. Now the same guy is putting out another book on a widespread and long lived conspiracy theory about jesus. People eat it up because people love to read about jesus, it blows their minds, and people like that.

I personally wouldn't give the book a second thought. These 'theories' are not new and this author is only putting forward an old idea to which he has attached his name for financial gain. I won't contribute to his wealth based on someone's old, old idea. If he has any moral core he should be ashamed of himself.
Why this kind of thinking is important? I am a Christian and in my mind it doesn't matter what the details of the legend are, whether Christ died and came back, whether Christ was gay or not or even if Christ existed in reality. What is important is the spiritual message of Christianity and all the oldest religions of the world - play nice and share your stuff. This is difficult enough without complicating the message with irrelevant 'facts'.

Originally posted by Boatphone
I am hoping to buy it soon but I must finish "Talisman" first...

-- Boat

Sorry to be off topic.....is that from Steven King? If so, I've read it and it's pretty good. I read it in highschool though.....don't ask me how long ago that was.

To clarify some points...

Yes there is a "drug" out there that will produce effects such as undetectable heartbeat, breathing, etc. A person will appear dead and after three days awaken in a state of euphoria. The Indians (from India, not America) call it Soma and I believe it is still in use today. From what I have read, it is a combination of several plants that create the illusion of death. Jesus (Yeshua) was said to leave his body for three days and on the third day rise again. This is an allegory of his soul's journey to attain an even higher level of consciousness than his already Christ consciousness. If you believe in metaphysics and are willing to accept theories and ideologies that may not follow your beliefs, you will begin to see the truth. Yeshua had to leave this world (the matrix), move through lesser planes (hell) to reach the Creator (Mother/Father deity) and attain enlightenment.

Naturally, it's all speculation, since there has yet to be discovered a single shred of good, archeological evidence to suggest that any demi-god such as the "Jesus" written about in the Gospels even existed. Just stories from a time when people weren't sich sticklers for separating "fact" from "fiction."

One might as well speculate about the death of Merlin.

Originally posted by Griff
I always thought that Jesus did appear to people after he died.

Not in the original texts. The resurrection was a bit added on later so that his story would more closely conform to the Egyptian Isis-Osiris-Horus story. Just like he was made a "god" in the good ol' Greek tradition. The Christ story is really a hopeless and contradiction-ridden pastiche of elements of older, cooler stories.

Originally posted by BaastetNoir

If Jesus survived and had children it would be in the RCC best intterest to say so, so they can claim even lowder they are the chosen church of God.

Why hyde something that will make you BILLIONS ???

Maybe. However, a recognized King of the Church might want to take control of all that Aztec gold they accumulated, along with all the other treasure, including land. As far as the Church is concered, having a founder who flew up to Heaven is a lot less problematic than having some Great Great Grandchild of Jesus sitting in the Mercy Seat.

All of these stupid satanic theories - always neglect the evidence to the contrary.

1. At the time - the enemies of Christ did not claim that he survived the crucifixion. The enemies of Christ claimed that the Apostles stole His Body. The reason that they did not claim that he survived is because they knew that the witnesses to the crucifixion and the condition of Jesus after his torture under Pilate - would have made them look like complete IDIOTS!

2. The idea that Jesus might have survived because others lasted for days on the cross and Jesus died within hours - neglects the fact that He was nearly dead before He was even placed on the cross - the Scourging nearly killed Him and would have killed any other person.

3. The theory that the Apostles stole His Body or that they "drugged Him" to make it look like He was dead - is absurd on many levels.
a. by all accounts - the Apostles were simple men and cowards.

b. If the apostles did know that Jesus really did not rise from the dead -
they would be the first known human beings in history to willingly give
their lives for something that they KNEW to be a lie. There is not a single
documented case of a person willingly giving their live for something that
they knew to be a lie. Many people died for lies -but they believed these
lies to be true. If the Apostles stole the Body or drugged Him they would
would have known His rising to be a lie.

Not only did one give their life for Jesus and the faith that He gave - but
but eleven did! All but one Apostle died horrible deaths - that they could
have avoided had they simply said that Jesus did not rise from the dead.

These people that write this nonsense are this generation of pharasees - they are liars and satanists - and almost always Jewish!

Jesus died on the Cross that first Good Friday and He rose again on Easter Sunday - this is an HISTORICAL FACT testified to by more people than any other. Billions of people over the last 2000 years have testified to this fact.

It is more absurd to deny that Jesus rose from the dead than to deny that the earth is round!

Some claim the crucifixion(killing) of the Nazarene was far more brutal than what we have been led to understand.

There are those who claim Issa(s.a.w.) was castrated, and died quickly.

I think the only one on drugs is the author.

Anyone who thinks Issa(s.a.w.) did not exist is mistaken.

He lived virtuously, He was a bold and fearless rebel who confronted the Hypocrites and whose gift was born of heresy.

And He died on the cross.

Peace be upon Him.

[edit on 3-4-2006 by pRoPhEcY]

If He was drugged, it was with the vinegar sponge, or whatever it was soaked with.

His legs were not broken as the two others' crucified that day were, because the Roman guards were told He was already dead.

His side was pierced with the lance and blood and water poured out.

After he rose from the dead he stayed on earth for 40 days.

It was Thomas (the doubter) who held His hands and slipped his own hand into the wound on His side.

Jesus said, "the prince of this world now comes for me, and I have him not within me."

I just finished reading the four gospels and I am now reading Acts, so this stuff is fresh in my memory.

Of course, I am going by the Bible, and I do believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God and the Son of Man, fully God and fully man.

[edit on 3-4-2006 by Icarus Rising]

I'm not going to repeat all that has been said in this forum on ATS on the subject but for those of you interested in an in-depth analysis of this issue from someone other than Baigent - a true Christian, also - you should read "The Jeusu Conspiracy" by Holger Kersten and Elmar Gruber. I think Kersten wrote the first half of the book which concerns this topic.

Briefly, they expand upon some the ideas being bandied about here:
- there was such a drug available
- there was no "thrusting" of the spear to ensure death; just a little poke to see if there was a reaction which was common practice (the rest of the stuff about the water and strange powers was just made up)
- there was no resurrection - the word originally used was mistranslated; what is says is "Resuscitation" which is much more consistent with other strange goings-on surrounding this event
- the Gospel of John was written to send a signal to the followers that would reassure them that Jesus did not die on the cross - it was intended as a message of hope
- a whole, whole bunch of other stuff in that story makes no sense whatsoever and seems to have been written by someone unfamiliar with the treatment of the dead according to Jewish law and customs
- a lot of the other parts of the "legend of the risen Jesus" are likely just embellishments

Oh, yes. There is quite a bit about the NT accounts of the Passion story that leave a lot of room for doubt if you are open to an honest examination and willing to leave your devotion outside the door while you're looking.

As usual, I part with the disclaimer that my only interest in this story is the history of it. So, if you just want to believe what you were taught in Sunday School, then you can just ignore this entire post.

As you can see, this book Holy blood, Holy Grail is basically not true. In that book they also got the idea for the Da Vinci Code. It has been proven that CHrist's bloodline is a conspiracy. I saw they investigate it at World Conspiracies in Discovery Channel.

I do belive that Jesus died and had been brought back to life. I believe that He is in heaven because He said that when he arrive in heaven He will send the Holy Spirit to help us. And the Holy Spirit is here. I know that because He lives in me.

Christianity is not a religion. It is a personal relationship with God. To us Christians religion is irrelevant. Forget about religions just read what He said!

I know Jesus will come back to judge the people on earth. His prophecies had come true. He said that before he comes back, there will be war, famine, earthquakes, natural disasters that includes the tsunami.

And one of the most awaited event that Jesus told us is the rapture.

I don't know about you guys but I believe in the Bible. God had changed a lot of people. Try www.godspeaks.com so that you might believe.

I do know some of you will go to heaven and others will go to hell.

GOd Be PrAisED

God bless you all

[edit on 4-4-2006 by JesusIsGod]

Actually Jesus was pierced in the heart...

1. Now, at the sixth hour of the day, although the sun was at its height, the day became as dark as night;
2. And men sought lanterns and they builded fires upon the hills that they might see.
3. And when the sun refused to shine and darkness came, the Lord exclaimed, Heloi! Heloi! lama sabachthani` (Thou sun! thou sun! why hast thou forsaken me?)
4. The people did not understand the words he spoke; they thought he spoke the name Elijah and they said,
5. He calls upon Elijah in his hour of need; now we will see if he will come.
6. And Jesus said, I thirst. A Roman soldier dipped a sponge in vinegar and myrrh, and placed it to his lips.
7. Now, at the ninth hour of the day the earth began to quake, and in the darkness of that sunless day, a flood of golden light appeared above the cross;
8. And from the light a voice was heard which said, Lo, it is done.
9. And Jesus said, My Father-God, into thy hands I give my soul.
10. A Roman soldier in compassion said, This agony is all too great; relief shall come. And with a spear he pierced his heart and it was done; the son of man was dead.
11. And then the earth was shocked again; the city of Jerusalem rocked to and fro; the hills were rent and tombs were opened up;
12. And people thought they saw the dead arise and walk the streets.
13. The temple quivered and the veil between the sanctuary and the Holy Place was rent in twain, and consternation reigned through all the place.
14. The Roman guard who watched the body on the cross exclaimed, This surely was the son of God who died.
15. And then the people hurried down from Calvary. The priests, the Pharisees and scribes were filled with fear.

I would have to say this is one of many play by plays available regarding the death of Christ. I'm not going to bother looking up other listings as rebutals.

If Jesus was speared through the heart, why is this not depicted (to my knowledge, which isn't vast) any pictures or statues of so on.

In all the crucifixs' I have ever seen, the wound is always shown on the right side of his body at the lower part of his side.
Now I know over the years that certain details can waiver, and even some artists can envision something entirely different based on their own views, but show me one out of all the depictions of Christ on the cross, where it shows a wound near his heart area.