What's an alien, what's a demon?

Well, Jesus was supposedly an expert on these demon things. And one of the central activities of his band of merry men was to cast demons that had somehow found their way into people and didn't want to leave. So in Biblical terms, I suppose demons are pretty much always spiritual entities of some sort. I don't think any portion of the Bible or the Apocrypha goes into a lot of detail about where these things come from. Not like the Watchers, anyway.

In "Buffy the Vampire Slayer," the demons definitely had corporeal bodies of their own, so that notion had to come from somewhere. The demon Halloween mask also suggests that demons are sometimes seen as having their own bodies and forms. So I don't know.

From a psychological perspective, demons are angry and frustrated portions of our own personalities that we usually suppress under heavy pressure from our families and polite society. They can be seen as a somewhat acceptible way for those with less social power to express themselves through a "proxy," rather than bear the responsibility of their own unacceptible behavior.

Curiously, demons are usually a lot more "fun." They enjoy being evil and shocking people, just like we do sometimes. Aliens, on the other hand, are generally on the dull side, seen more as just beings doing a job, not necessarily enjoying it. Like civil servants. "Grey," inside and out.

If the Greyevil is the modern, cold and removed nature of science representing the external, whle the daemonevil represents the childlike subconscience, then uf that is the case, and we now personify a new evil in the modern age, will the next age be characterized by yet another degree of evil personified? That is, can we stop wondering if we have entered a new age until we find a new mythos to personify evil?

Anyway, I think Incubus was always about.

Incidentally, I still think the Reptilion aliens are leprachauns on crack. Think about it. Leprechauns are into mischief. We have invented drugs of great mischief, like crack. Therefore, leprauchans have naturally gravitated towards it and are now all crack addicts. Once leprachauns became crackheads, all manner of mischief became more violent and maleavolent.

If I'm not mistaken, Enkidu, you're looking at aliens and demons from a Jungian perspective.

For many of the other participants in this thread, the difference appears to be that "demons" are spiritual beings and "aliens" are material ones.

This raises two more questions:

1. Can there be such a thing as a sentient, physical being that lacks a spirit?

2. And what exactly do we mean when we say "spirit", anyway?

Do these questions help illustrate the difference, or do they confuse us further?

This is getting interesting.

A spirit is another word for ghost or soul. We have a substantial physical body and a spirit, but not all spirits (like that one haunting the kitchen) have physical bodys.

Though, something on another dimension might not quite allways be physical or seen 'here', but it could go in and out. And in its respective dimension it is physical (as much as we are physical here).

So now we travel into the nature of existance : ) Once you go multi dimension you can't go back.

Originally posted by jazz_psyker
A spirit is another word for ghost or soul. We have a substantial physical body and a spirit.

Yes, JP, these words -- spirit, ghost, soul -- are all synonyms. But to substitute one word for another doesn't exactly help our understanding, does it?

Can anyone help me identify and define what these words really mean? And would such a definition exclude "aliens", meaning in this case visitors from another world? And if it does not, are we any further along in establishing a difference between aliens and demons?

Something on another dimension might not quite allways be physical or seen 'here'

Again, a question of what do we really mean by these words. A dimension, I understand, is a property of spacetime. A property, that is to say, of physical reality. If I recall correctly what I learnt at school, reality as we apprehend it has four dimensions, though it is possible to develop a geometry of any number of them. Correct me if I'm wrong.

But you seem to be using the word "dimension" to mean something rather different -- a kind of reality in itself, perhaps? And one, moreover, that is not necessarily physical. I find that quite confusing, and would be grateful to have you or another member help clarify things for me.

"Yes, JP, these words -- spirit, ghost, soul -- are all synonyms. But to substitute one word for another doesn't exactly help our understanding, does it?"

Ok a spirit its a eithric body made up of what people call pure energy. It is very much like one sees in fiction (a lot of times things in fiction are inflated or inaccurate), it is not allways so visiable or prelevent 'here'. But it goes into bounderys byond that of most fiction, fiction has rules but the spirit is limitless, and boundless.

Though I do find it odd when people say things like 'aliens have no souls olny we humans do' or 'demons have no souls' or 'aliens are demons'. When if something exists byond the physical (like a demon) it obviously has some sort of spirital body. So well if aliens are demons, then they contradicted their own statement of them not having a soul, because that is what they purely are, a spirit.

"Can anyone help me identify and define what these words really mean? And would such a definition exclude "aliens", meaning in this case visitors from another world? And if it does not, are we any further along in establishing a difference between aliens and demons?"

The origins of aliens are not universaly agreed upon, some might origonate from here, others naught, others the same dimension but far away planet. Mabey they come from another dimension which over laps this one.

So the debate goes on, what they are. Based on what we want them to be.

"Again, a question of what do we really mean by these words. A dimension, I understand, is a property of spacetime. A property, that is to say, of physical reality. If I recall correctly what I learnt at school, reality as we apprehend it has four dimensions, though it is possible to develop a geometry of any number of them. Correct me if I'm wrong."

What school did you go to, my teachers never spoke of the 4th dimension : ( so yea that is ironic, seeing that some of my more othadox friends learned about it in a class and I didn't. Well anyway if their is a 3 demension, and a 4th, certainly their could be more after that, mabey, up to seven or 13?

"But you seem to be using the word "dimension" to mean something rather different -- a kind of reality in itself, perhaps? And one, moreover, that is not necessarily physical. I find that quite confusing, and would be grateful to have you or another member help clarify things for me."

the 4th dimension is preseumably a place where all kinds of things dwell and live, in their own world. But it is not compleatly in itself and things go back and forth, from here and their.

Originally posted by Astyanax
If I'm not mistaken, Enkidu, you're looking at aliens and demons from a Jungian perspective.

Some loose social psychological perspective, sure. Particularly in that it provides those lower in the social structure to gain a bit of power without responsibility. Once a demon is "cast out" the afflicted person, they're essentially healed, and can rejoin society without being blamed their whole lives. I've sometimes wondered if the Catholic's notion of "confession" has some kind of link to the old demon casting practice. You have to remember, too, like Jesus said in the Gospel of Thomas: "If you bring forth what is within you, what you have will save you. If you do not have that within you, what you do not have within you [will] kill you."

1. Can there be such a thing as a sentient, physical being that lacks a spirit?

That's a tough one. Among a lot of the abduction literature, you sometimes find people describing the aliens as more like robots or insects than people like you and me. Other times, people describe their encounters as giving them a feeling of peace and comfort. Sometimes, on my less skeptical days, I think that there is some kind of communication between living things that doesn't take place in any way we currently understand. Like telepathy through an unknown dimension, or something. Because I have encountered people who look just like the rest of us, who don't apparently have a "spirit" of any kind to speak of. They are dull. They don't shine. They'll steal or do other bad things without even thinking about it. So I don't know.

I've recently become interested in artificial intelligence again after many years. And I've wondered how we would get a sense of a machine that to all outward appearances does everything our animal instincts tell us a living being with a "spirit" might do. We're all electro-chemical machines, anyway. I can't tell if the feelings or emotions you have are more "real" than mine. So maybe in order to work correctly, or maybe at a particular overlap in that hidden dimesion, a machine gains a spirit, but up until that time, they can technically think and live, but have no spirit.

Only one way to find out, I guess.

2. And what exactly do we mean when we say "spirit", anyway?

Generally, when people talk about a "spirit," they generally mean a kind of glowing lifeforce, like electricity, but organized somehow so that it understands its environment and can use bodies and machines to do things. That's what I gather, anyway. Some metaphysicists have this broken down into other levels, but I think that's the basic gist of it. So in that regard, anything that "lives" has to have a spirit. From the tiniest little bacterium to a sperm whale. But a spirit is supposedly able to exist without a body, too. Like ghosts. They're seen as a kind of organized energy "echo" of the dead person. They can act on our environment in very limited ways, but really need a body to do anything important.

But that's where I really start to get confused. It seems to me that a "spirit" is just a kind of Jungian projection we give to other people, and sometimes objects (like your computer when it's acting badly), that doesn't really exist. It's just that because we evolved as social animals, we prefer to deal with the things in our enviroment from a social perspective, so we imbue other things and objects with a kind of displaced feeling of self. So our personal frustration and anger becomes a Demon from Hell, which is external to us, so we're not responsible for it.

Now, are we able to partially manifest these thought forms and somehow make them physically real in our universe? If you go along with what Rupert Sheldrake says about morphogenic fields, then maybe so. There's not a lot of good scientific research being done on the subject. We haven't been able to create some good definitions or hypotheses to test, yet.

Do these questions help illustrate the difference, or do they confuse us further?

Oh, I don't think we could get much more confused. Not me, anyway.

This is getting interesting.

It is interesting, from a philosophical standpoint. I return to it once in a while and mull it over. Like I mentioned above, Sheldrake has some interesting theories about it. Check him out HERE.

[edit on 1-4-2006 by Enkidu]

True enough, and they have discovered many of the mirror neurons that may have something to do with how we perceive spirit through empathetic projection.

But from a purely religeometric perspective, many traditionalists have shown me diagrams in a which a soul surrounds a spirit, thouth I never understood the distinction.

In any case, none of this explains why Leprachauns chose crack. I suppose angel dust was to 'good' sounding, and meth was not so readily available during the 90s, when the Leprachaun economy became particularly weak (gold was at a 30 year low).

Originally posted by Ectoterrestrial
In any case, none of this explains why Leprachauns chose crack.

I think it's obvious. They're Irish. 'Nuff said.

I guess this is about as far as we're going to get, unless someone comes along with a really different and compelling new perspective. From the foregoing discussion and a fair amount of preliminary reading and thought, I conclude that demons and aliens are one and the same. This holds true whether we believe in them or not.

Here are the options:

1. "Aliens" are demons who have adapted a spiffy, chrome-plated new disguise in order to blend in with the preconceptions of a technological age, the better to pursue their diabolical mission.

2. "Demons" are alien visitors to pre-technological cultures. Their true nature was misapprehended by people in those cultures, who interpreted the weird appearance and behaviour of the aliens as demonic (or angelic, or ghostly, or monstrous, or what have you). Vide Clarke's Third Law: 'Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.'

3. Aliens and demons are differently manifested archetypes of the collective unconscious or, to put it in simpler language, they are the different forms taken by the conscious apprehension of instinctive human drives in different cultures.

The possibility that aliens and demons are both real, but distinct from each other, can be discounted because of the trouble we have in telling their manifestations apart. Occam's razor applies here: 'Entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily.' Or to put it another way, believing in everything is effectively the same as believing in nothing.

As for the leprechaun/crack issue, it's nothing but superstition. Leprechauns exist, of course, but any fool knows there is no such thing as crack.

Its kind of hard to use two aruments that go against eachother : )

You said that aliens are demons with a spiffy technological outfit/illusion. But also that demons are realy aliens, that any sort of evil magic powers were repilcated by technology.

I mean its one thing to say that aliens are demons under a premise they are infernal beings masquirading with a spiffy apearence (using demon magic for their technological powers). But then to say that midevil accounts saying they were demons with evil magic is false, that they were aliens using purely technology, the whole thing goes into a illogical circle.

Originally posted by jazz_psyker
Its kind of hard to use two aruments that go against eachother : )

You said that aliens are demons with a spiffy technological outfit/illusion. But also that demons are realy aliens, that any sort of evil magic powers were repilcated by technology.

Look at my previous post again, carefully. You'll see that I am offering the two theses as options. Obviously, one can't be true if the other is. And neither of them can be true if aliens/demons are creations of the mind, which was the third option I proposed.

My point was that, whichever of these options you choose to go with, aliens and demons end up being the same thing. They're demons mistaken for aliens, aliens mistaken for demons, or products of the mind conceived as either aliens or demons, depending on the cultural background of the person manifesting them.

Hope that clears up any confusion.

HAHHA, yea I ommited the options part.

Good to read inbetween the lines.

I don't know if this will add anything to this very interesting discussion, but will post it anyway.

Demons have been exposed for what they are, first by Jesus who cast them into swine and they ran over a cliff (devilled ham, if you will..). They also possess people, haunt houses, and actively initiate human contact through ouija boards, etc. They, like the Devil - lie A LOT.

"Aliens" have no pedigree, and when we assume they come from other planets is it because they tell us "I hail from Zeta Reticuli" and so forth and we have no way of knowing, so we assume they are telling the truth.

There is a saying in the Bible that you shall know a tree by it's fruits. Demons and Aliens produce the same, stinky, rotten fruit: they have no regard for human life, hijack people's minds, lie A LOT, go bump in the night, and conduct freaky experiments on people who are completely traumatized by the experience.

If these "aliens" are building bodies out of human tissue, cattle, whatever - and taking eggs and sperm from women to create bodies, wouldn't it be perfect for a homeless demon who can't find some swine to jump into?

They have a master, and are slaves to that master, who I think is trying to build an army. It's definitely a big project. Armies are good for one thing - WAR.

And the Bible says that in the last days the evil one will make WAR with the saints.

One more thing. In the garden of eden, Satan was a reptilian -- a snake. He still is, it sounds like to me.

Originally posted by Sheresearcher
There is a saying in the Bible that you shall know a tree by it's fruits.

That may be true, but it kind of all depends upon if WE are smart enough to recognize the fruits when we see them, don't you think? After all, one of our greatest discoveries, penicillin, was discovered by us finally recognizing that the stinky, rotten mold was actually a fruit in disguise. The limitation was, and still is, ours.

Demons and Aliens produce the same, stinky, rotten fruit: they have no regard for human life, hijack people's minds, lie A LOT, go bump in the night, and conduct freaky experiments on people who are completely traumatized by the experience.

Well, some people have reported very positive experiences, but even if we accept for the moment that aliens seem to be doing evil things, don't you think it might be that like the mold, we just aren't smart enough yet to recognize the "fruit" of the alien's work? Just maybe? That the trauma is an unfortunate side effect of our own ignorance, and the alien's need to keep certain things from us, for our own good?

Anyway, the aliens are less of a threat to us than many of our own kind. At least with the aliens, they don't seem to be purpously out to see us dead, which they could apparently accomplish with ease. That's more than I can say about some people in the world.

Yea if you check out the fruits we often give our fellow man, or let alone other creatures and beings. Its pretty compareable to that posiably aliens give.

Could be more flawed beings in a flawed world/universe, hence why they interact with us because they live somewhere around we do, in tehsuck world.

Though as for what is the truth, speculation can olny go so far. To realy find out one needs to ask 'them' or check out for themselves.

Going back to the disputed origons of aliens, and the they are demon idea. Where they came from would be hell, heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeelllllllllllllllllllllllllll *wosh* (crater opens up on the surface of the planet and in a jet of fire a UFO flys out).

As to if they are ourselves in the future, I don't realy aggree with that. "why are we all so ugly in the future eeehhh" A lot of the aliens lack hair, man I don't care if you can shift though walls and fly in a saucer if you got no hair and are ugly life doesn't matter : ) As long as we are complaining about aliens, I would like to point out that they also have no fashion sense (outfits of startreck), and fly around in unimagitive craft, a saucer, triangles and a cigar shaped one, great. If you fly around in some crapy spiffy huge cigar thats gayer then gaylord, you can go sodomize yourself with your big gay spaceship.

If I was a sphisicated 4th dimension being I would have perfect hair, a spiffy pimped out renasanse outfit fit for a king with pimp infuence to it. And my craft would be very ornate and cool looking, also huge. It would have a mansion inside of it. I would also have quite a few of cool servents mabey robots, or cool looking aliens to be my butlers and minions.

And if I abucted somebody, I would olny do to fly people. Mabey picking up dates, and those who were brought would have a cool time, and I would leave my mark on them which wouldn't be some gay nasty scar, or a brand/implant. But a very vivid unique tattoo ("wow you got a tatto of a space pimp riding on a dragon flying in the sky, with couds and #". And implants wouldn't be hidden and hamper and mintor people, but be very visable and enchance people. One person gets super stong arm that can punch though walls, another gets a plasma gun built into the arm, and another gets propellor arms.

But yea..... what if : ) If olny.

Originally posted by jazz_psyker
If I was a sphisicated 4th dimension being I would have perfect hair, a spiffy pimped out renasanse outfit fit for a king with pimp infuence to it. And my craft would be very ornate and cool looking, also huge. It would have a mansion inside of it. I would also have quite a few of cool servents mabey robots, or cool looking aliens to be my butlers and minions.

The craft would also be full of attractive aliens of the opposite sex wearing spacesuits that were quite close-fitting in the booty area, right?

~~

i've always had the viewpoint that demons
were spirit things, having no substance but 'residing' in the unseen realms...
so that, if one were possessed by a demon spirit, it could happen that the hallucination of a hideous man-like form was the demon taking control of that persons senses...and the repulsive,foul smelling, rancid skinned
creatures that are reported as being demons...are only the emotionally charged imaginations of those eye-witnesses attempting to describe the 'feelings' they have 'seen' of the denizens of the 'unseen realm'.

weren't the ancient Greeks aware of the theories of Atoms & Germs & molecules (all elements of this invisible realm) way long before the time of Jesus & those scriptural accounts of demons in the new testament??

ergo, demons being formless things inhabiting the realm of feelings and 'unseen things'...cannot be Aliens, which have physical substance and are part of the natural/material universe (according to UFO thought)...
all that needs to be determined is if Aliens are from this present time/ from this dimension/from another solar system altogether.

cheers

While I certainly don't think aliens and demons are one and the same there are some similarities.
A book that may be of interest is- 'A Field Guide to Demons' by Carol K. Mack and Dinah Mack.
A couple of excerpts-

The demon is universally regarded as an incorporeal spirit who can actualize in many ways, yet is usually depicted as a grotesque hybrid: part Homo sapiens, part wild beast, it always walks upright.

The entire species is composed of supernatural, composite feral creatures with telltale tails.

Plato in his Symposium: the Daimon is an itermediary spirit, described as neither god nor mortal but something between them.

I found this enlightening-

One Jewish source related that the demons were created on the Sixth Day of Creation when the Lord was producing many creatures, but He was interrupted by the approaching eve of Sabbath, and so there was not enough time to give all the souls He created bodies of their own.

Personally I see aliens as seperate from the demons spawned by religions and folklore.
But thats just me.
Those interested in demons might find the aforementioned book quite invaluable as they also include fairies and fallen angels in the content.


[edit on 4/9/06 by longhaircowboy]